240 réponses à ce sujet

[stuboy52]

he was a interesting adversary as he didnt just scream his point of view till you agreed he argued your views in a logic and very philosophical manner even so i think he and qunari are fools to think they can bring order to chaos as thats not how people work you cant force a society without freedom upon people and expect it to work they create more chaos than they prevent.

[CantiCooly]

I agree he is one of the best dragon age rivals and that he had a right to defend his people and the new converts but i wouldnt want to live under the Qunari and the Qun.

[Werrf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Werrf wrote...
So he can arrive there with all the warriors he needs, but he's not responsible for any of them?  That is not the act of a leader.  If he can't police his renegades he shouldn't be leading, and he should damn well ask for help.

He suffered a shipwreck. For all we know, those Qunari were stranded there by the storm. He was in the city. How could he deal with them?

Well, apparently he had enough warriors to take the city.  Or, if he didn't have enough to fight the outcasts himself, he could have asked for help.  

He has every right once he saw that the Viscount had no power at all to enforce the law. He failed to protect delegates. He failed to protect his own son. He failed to protect his citizens. And he failed to stop fanatics from gassing their own streets. Take all of these into context.

What right?  Might is right?  He is a visitor in the city, one who refuses to involve himself in its affairs, consistently refuses to pay any attention to its laws, customs, or rights.  If he takes the law into his own hands, he's an invader, pure and simple.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

What did the arishok do to compromsie the power of the Viscount? The elves thing was at the very end where the Viscount already demonstrated how ineffectual he is. Killing Sister Petrice was also at the very end. 

He may not have legality on his side, but it becomes a moot point as there was practically no law and order in Kirkwall. It was breaking down.

The Viscount's biggest problem throughout this Act has been the Qunari.  The Qunari everywhere, their refusal to talk to him, to acknowledge his laws.  His failure to deal with them - which was at least partially due to the Arishok's intransigence - is a major factor in the breakdown of his rule.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
And I personally never said he was completely blameless. I said, he was not completely reasonable (though compared to the others you listed, he ranks as one of the most reasonable). 
Hwoever, I think most of the blame does not fall on him.  

I'm afraid I must disagree.  The Qunari situation was almost entirely of his making - he arrived in the city and acted like he owned the place from beginning to end, and his intransigence leads directly to the battle which gives Meredith the opening she needs to declare her loopy self the only law in Kirkwall.

I'm sorry, I just can't see him as awesome.  I see him as an arrogant jackass whose stubbornness helped destabilise a city and lead to hundreds of deaths.  That is not awesome.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Werrf wrote...
Well, apparently he had enough warriors to take the city.  Or, if he didn't have enough to fight the outcasts himself, he could have asked for help. 

Different, he was in the city, with a weak govenrment. Did you want him to mobalize his army and go outside and start to root them out?
He had another task to do.

And again, the group that Saemus was with were in the wounded coast. For all we know, the Arishok was sending raids against them.

What right?  Might is right?  He is a visitor in the city, one who refuses to involve himself in its affairs, consistently refuses to pay any attention to its laws, customs, or rights.  If he takes the law into his own hands, he's an invader, pure and simple.

The law broke down when he did all this and so this becomes a moot point. A law that cannot be enforced is for all intents and purposes non-existant. When that happens and when that threatens his own people, then yes, might is right and that's what was needed to protect them.

The Viscount's biggest problem throughout this Act has been the Qunari.  The Qunari everywhere, their refusal to talk to him, to acknowledge his laws.  His failure to deal with them - which was at least partially due to the Arishok's intransigence - is a major factor in the breakdown of his rule.

No, his biggest problem were the fanatics he could not control, because of the presence of the Qunari and conversions. Big difference. You have no evidence that the Arishok didn't send delegates before and the ones he did send were reasonable and wanted peace. 

The arishok was doing nothing to undermine his rule. And when he acted, it was already undermined. Except if you think that accepting converts was "intransigence". What was he supposed to do? Kick the converts out and tell them they have no place in the Qun, vioilating what he stands for?

I'm afraid I must disagree.  The Qunari situation was almost entirely of his making - he arrived in the city and acted like he owned the place from beginning to end, and his intransigence leads directly to the battle which gives Meredith the opening she needs to declare her loopy self the only law in Kirkwall.

He never acted like he owned the place. He hated it. But he remained in the compound. He kept negotiating. Time and time again, he was provoked and he kept silent. He reacting only when things got out of hand.

To blame him almost entirely, is really missing the entire point. And forgetting how long he stood patient and did not retaliate for what they did to him and his people.

The only mistake you can say he made was not tell the Viscount why he was there. And that's a valid criticism. And he didn't say why for also valid reason. Imagine that he declared that the Tome of Koslun was in Kikrwall and Sister Petrice, who wants war, heard. What do you think would have happened?
There is a reason why he kept silent on this.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 mars 2011 - 12:02 .

[Werrf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Werrf wrote...
Well, apparently he had enough warriors to take the city.  Or, if he didn't have enough to fight the outcasts himself, he could have asked for help. 

Different, he was in the city, with a weak govenrment. Did you want him to mobalize his army and go outside and start to root them out?
He had another task to do.

When they're his people, who he could not control, and they were killing others?  HELL YES, I want him to mobilise his forces and root them out!  They're his followers, they're his responsibility.

No, his biggest problem were the fanatics he could not control, because of the presence of the Qunari and conversions. Big difference. You have no evidence that the Arishok didn't send delegates before and the ones he did send were reasonable and wanted peace.

When the emissaries are sent, it's pretty clear that it IS the first time he sent anyone, otherwise the loss of the envoys would have been a bad situation, but not as calamitous.  There's no sign of any other form of negotiation, and indeed the viscount was shocked when he did receive them. 

The arishok was doing nothing to undermine his rule. And when he acted, it was already undermined.

He was sitting in the city with an army.  That's often called an invasion.  He was refusing to talk with the rulers of the city.  Would you re-elect a politician who was unable to keep a foreign army out of the city you lived in?  His very presence was undermining the viscount, and he didn't care.

Except if you think that accepting converts was "intransigence". What was he supposed to do? Kick the converts out and tell them they have no place in the Qun, vioilating what he stands for?

His utter failure to find the tome or even, as far as we can tell, seriously look for it, while at the same time refusing to ask for help, is his intransigence.

He never acted like he owned the place. He hated it. But he remained in the compound. He kept negotiating. Time and time again, he was provoked and he kept silent. He reacting only when things got out of hand.

He maintained an army.  He enforced his own laws and ignored those of the city.  That is the activity of a ruler, and pretty well counts to me as "acting like he owned the place'.

To blame him almost entirely, is really missing the entire point. And forgetting how long he stood patient and did not retaliate for what they did to him and his people.

His delay in retaliation is indeed a reasonable action, especially given what his people (the Tal Vashoth) were doing to the other side.  On the other hand, what was done to his people?  We saw one man kidnapped by a lone fanatic, and an embassy ambushed and killed - when he FINALLY sent it , after spending years in the city.

The only mistake you can say he made was not tell the Viscount why he was there. And that's a valid criticism. And he didn't say why for also valid reason. Imagine that he declared that the Tome of Koslun was in Kikrwall and Sister Petrice, who wants war, heard. What do you think would have happened?
There is a reason why he kept silent on this.

His mistakes were legion.  He did not share his reasons for being there, refused to police his own people while insisting Kirkwall police theirs, did not acknowledge his duties as a guest, gave harbour to murderers and, most importantly, completely failed to consider any point of view other than his own as having any validity.   Of course, that's the problem with the Qun.

[Kyosukedei]

ONe of the best things Bioware did for the game =)

Also one of the hardest fight as a rogue... but my mage and 2h warrior stomped his face in with a couple of pots =)

[Dangerfoot]

I don't really hate them from a game design perspective, but if I was a part of the Dragon Age universe I would loathe Qunari. They are violent, dim-witted animals. I always rolled my eyes when Morrigan talked about how honorable and awesome Sten is. They value physical strength above anything, including actual honor and strength of character. I really hope I get a chance to disgrace their entire species in the next game, possibly destroy the foundations of their culture.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Werrf wrote...
When they're his people, who he could not control, and they were killing others?  HELL YES, I want him to mobilise his forces and root them out!  They're his followers, they're his responsibility.

Technically, they no longer become his people. And like I said, he was having military groups go out in the wounded coasts. Probably to fight the Tal Vashoth, as I see no other purpose in their presence there.

When the emissaries are sent, it's pretty clear that it IS the first time he sent anyone, otherwise the loss of the envoys would have been a bad situation, but not as calamitous.  There's no sign of any other form of negotiation, and indeed the viscount was shocked when he did receive them.

What? And why can't the previous emissaries had not been abducted, but this was the first time it happened, thus it was a big deal?
I don't follow the logic. The fact that nothing happened to previous ambassadors does not remove the importance of the abduction of an ambassador that comes afterwards.

I do not recall anything making it clear this was the case. If you remember an exact quotation, or if you can paraphrase. I'd appreciate it.
The Viscount was not shocked. The Viscount was surprised they were reasonable. Probably because no one would have been as reasonable after everything that happened, while being contistently provoked.

His utter failure to find the tome or even, as far as we can tell, seriously look for it, while at the same time refusing to ask for help, is his intransigence.

Intransigence is lack of mdoeration. How does failure to find the tome mean lack of moderation?
And he took it very seriously. So much so, that if you give it to him, the Qunari leave. That's why they were here. They don't give a damn about Kirkwall, when they have the tome.

As for refusing to ask for help. Again, barring the fact that revealing this is humiliating for the Qunari as a whole and that the fanatics might not believe him anyways and dismiss it as an excuse. Think what would have happened had fanatics that the Arishok know existed or had to exist, found out this was true. Sister Petrice wants war at all costs. What better way is there than to take the tome, and ****** on it in front of the Qunari.

I understand the criticism. But I also understand why the Arishok thought it more prudent not to tell anyone about it, excpt Hawke whom he trusts.

His delay in retaliation is indeed a reasonable action, especially given what his people (the Tal Vashoth) were doing to the other side.  On the other hand, what was done to his people?  We saw one man kidnapped by a lone fanatic, and an embassy ambushed and killed - when he FINALLY sent it , after spending years in the city.

Mobs being incited to murder Qunari on sight. Interference in Qunari mage affairs and more importantly, since you seem to have forgotten the main purpose of that quest, trying to make the Qunari kill Hawke and start a war. Send agents to steal their weaponry and spark a war. Murder Saemus, who had converted.  Brutally slaughtering emissaries. 

All of these was being done to his people.

And again, you have no evidence that the Arishok never sent delegates to the Viscount. How do you think he was accepted in the city in the first place and given a compound?  You think he just barged in after a shipwreck, and settled in the compound without asking anyone's opinion?
How do you think he kept his people fed? Or have groups of Qunari go outside the city? You think that was all possible without having some correspondence wiht the authorities?

His mistakes were legion.  He did not share his reasons for being there, refused to police his own people while insisting Kirkwall police theirs, did not acknowledge his duties as a guest, gave harbour to murderers and, most importantly, completely failed to consider any point of view other than his own as having any validity.   Of course, that's the problem with the Qun.

All refuted above and before. You are just repeating yourself here.

Those big bad "murderers" were victims themselves of a state that  was no longer ruled by law. It becomes a moot point, the law was already collapsing when he accepted them.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 mars 2011 - 12:37 .

[Foolsfolly]

WidowMaker9394 wrote...

PantheraOnca wrote...

I would have liked the option to decapitate Petrice rather than letting the sten shoot her.

I also am surprised so many people liked Loghain. I thought he was a pretty poor villain. His reasons for abandoning Cailan just didn't work for me.

You had a lot of respect and understanding of Loghain if you read the books.

I didn't read the books and I respected the man.

He was the Hero of River Dane. He fought, bled, and in the end helped forge Ferelden. He's an old man with old hatreds. He saw Cailain as the child he really was and that all he was doing was getting men killed needlessly in battle against a darkspawn incursion in the middle of nowhere.

And THAT he could put up with but having Orlais come in with troops and Wardens, that was too much. All the Orlaisans would need to do is what they're known for: assassinate the King!

He couldn't allow that. He tried again and again to get him to change his mind about the Orlaisans, even the day before the big battle at Ostagar. Then Loghain let Cailan have the glory he wanted, he died a warrior King out against a true Blight.

Loghain wanted to help. He didn't want to go back to being an occupied country and he was willing to sacrifice everything to keep Ferelden free.

With the DLC Return to Ostagar we see something else too, Loghain's paranoia isn't entirely baseless. Cailan was having secret and very informal communications with the Empress of Orlais. I doubt Loghain knew everything about these communications but I'm sure he knew about them, and with his mind and the cliche of the Orlaisans being scheming political beasts he probably thought the Empress was playing Cailan for some ulterior motive.

And who's to say she wasn't? We just read a letter in a group of letters and you can easily lie and mislead in a letter.

[fett51]

The Arishok was a fanatic, but he was reasonable about it to some degree. He actually seemed to consider what one had to say, and respected Hawke for being straight with him even when they disagreed. Can't really say how much his fanatacism is justified without knowing more about the Qun. If it's "you scored highest on the soldier proficiency test, so you be a soldier" it's sort of hard to argue that isn't an effective policy, if totalitarian. Seeing what a mess Kirkwall was I can understand why he wanted to sort the place out the only way he knew how.

Dunno if he's the best though, Master Li also had some fair points about order being better than the cyclical nature of things in the JE cosmology, (and he was certainly right about Sun Hai being crazy) even if they were just cover for his ambition.

[robtheguru]

I loved how he didn't throw away his own beliefs for the sake of humanity. Besides that, he did look pretty awesome.

[Danjaru]

Didn't like him much. planning to take over the city and kill everyone cause his religion differs. Just a fanatic nutcase not much better than Mother Patrice.

Even in the Dragon Age Universe, Loghain and Flemeth are both far superior adversaries. (Even Architect to a degree)

[Arrtis]

otis0310 wrote...

If your arugement is that he is the best enemy that you face who is honourable, but not an evil madman, I agree.

The arishok was certainly provoked, the mother went out of her way to cause that battle and devlare open war at every opportunity, meanwhile hiding behind the chantry and Kirkwall's flag to protect herself. Therefore the Arishok was a good enemy who was jsut trying to do what was right ofr his people and beliefs.

The best enemy period was that reaper in Mass Effect 1. But obviosly he is cannot be given the due honor and respect that the arishok deserves. Therefore it does not qualify.

Why is it that they always had to ahve some person steering the plot and you had to ride along with it.
Oh hey lets go make a comprimize....the mother comes along and that does not happen.
Oh hey lets go talk about this amge/templar problem.....anders comes along and says no thanks.
Quite annoying.Felt like there was little choice involved.

[The Spirit of Dance]

I agree, the Arishock was the best antagonist in the game and his battle and the events directly leading up to it were the high point of the game. but since the only bioware games i've played were dragon age origins and dragon age 2 my opinion isn't worth much here.

Modifié par supremebloodwolf, 17 mars 2011 - 01:21 .

[Kerilus]

stuboy52 wrote...

he was a interesting adversary as he didnt just scream his point of view till you agreed he argued your views in a logic and very philosophical manner even so i think he and qunari are fools to think they can bring order to chaos as thats not how people work you cant force a society without freedom upon people and expect it to work they create more chaos than they prevent.

But the Qun as both a philosophy and social structure is proven to be one that can work. The Arishok attempted to bring the city to the Qun in a rather desperate manner. If he had the full support of the Qun, Kirkwall would have no chance.

[Pileyourbodies]

Oh yeah because everyone would want to be in such a regimented structure. Qun and Freedom don't get along.

[Kerilus]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

Oh yeah because everyone would want to be in such a regimented structure. Qun and Freedom don't get along.

Indeed. I personally do not believe in the Qun, but it can work, and it makes the Qunari very powerful. These are facts.

[TexasToast712]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Adversary, not villain, because even though he let someone make off with plans for poisonous gas, stormed the Keep, and murdered the Viscount, I think that he was both justified and in the right.

The Arishok has two basic duties in DA II: To secure a holy relic and to safeguard his people.

For three years, he doesn't threaten anyone but sits in his compound and watches. In turn, he's robbed, his peace delegates are tortured and murdered, a new convert is murdered, and the city guards then demand two elves seeking asylum under the Qunari are returned. Two elves whose crime was administering justice that Kirkwall itself never would.*

He shows far more patience, dedication, and actual nobility than I've ever seen in a BioWare villain previously.

I'm sure someone will bring up that he had obviously prepared to attack the Keep, but that's a completely practical thing for a general stuck in a hostile city to do. He might have intended to take over all along. However, I find that doubtful given how willing he is to leave after he recovers the relic.

The conflict between Hawke and the Arishok isn't one of good and evil but simply an unstoppable force meeting an immovable object.

The Arishok, and the conflict with the radical elements of the Chantry, is what makes Act 2 the most satisfying part of the game.


*The Magistrate's Orders quest is especially satisfying as it give you the chance to do exactly what those elves did, and even Aveline approves.

I agree with everything you said except for the 2 elves. I agree with them getting revenge but its clear they suddenly "converted" to the Qun to avoid punishment.

[Dark Specie]

Kerilus wrote...
The Arishok attempted to bring the city to the Qun in a rather desperate manner. If he had the full support of the Qun, Kirkwall would have no chance.

True enough. As he himself said, he was sent to accomplish a certain task, not to invade/conquer. He didn't have the right tools handy for that anyway (no Tamassrans for one thing). The invasion was indeed a desperate thing, something he felt had to be done to protect his own and proceed with his task without being bothered by fanatics seeking to cut down his people (as well as an utter disgust for what he saw as a totally alien, chaotic and honorless society)...

[Arrtis]

The biggest problem was.There was no option to say that the tome has left kirkwall and the thief isabela has it.

[Dark Specie]

Arrtis wrote...

The biggest problem was.There was no option to say that the tome has left kirkwall and the thief isabela has it.

Would Hawke know that for sure though? The possiiblity that Isabella was still in the city but lying low was there...
Besides, Hawke CAN say that kinda "It is in the posession of one of my former companions", implying that she may have gone elsewhere. 

The problem is perhaps that  Aveline sees the matter of the elven murderers as the bigger problem (which it is in fact not) and thus, since she brings it up as the tome is discussed it also eliminates the possibility of further discussing the matter with the Arishok, sadly enough.

Modifié par Dark Specie, 17 mars 2011 - 01:58 .

[Zenstrive]

The Arishok is the best thing in DA2. I wonder why he is not the last boss. Bioware could switch act 2 final act with act 3 final act and I think everyone will think that the game is better than DA:O

[Arrtis]

A lie could have easily solved the issue considering the Airshok trusted you more than others.

[PantheraOnca]

Dangerfoot wrote...

I don't really hate them from a game design perspective, but if I was a part of the Dragon Age universe I would loathe Qunari. They are violent, dim-witted animals. I always rolled my eyes when Morrigan talked about how honorable and awesome Sten is. They value physical strength above anything, including actual honor and strength of character. I really hope I get a chance to disgrace their entire species in the next game, possibly destroy the foundations of their culture.

I think you are misunderstanding the Qunari.

They are essentially the ideal society presented in Plato's Republic. This society does not value military achievement or physical strength above all others, and infact holds great respect for intellectual pursuits. I recommend giving it a read. It should be public domain so you should be able to find it for free online (I'm not 100% on this).


To some other posts that talk about freedom and the qunari: there is a process of evaluation for each person, after which they can then choose within whatever field it is deemed they are best in; if i remember correctly the breakdown would be military, artisinal, and intellectual/philosophical. So in other words if you are strong and fast, but have no/little skill with craftsmanship and do not do well reading a philosophical text, you're going to end up in the military but you can choose what you do within the military.

if you are shown to have a talent for mechanics or woodworking or whatever, you will be part of the artisans and can then choose to go into chair-making or bridge-making or tailoring or whatever.

so on and so forth.

oh, also, there isn't a family structure in the way we think of it as children are raised by people determined to be best at child raising. while this may be objectionable to some people, it also removes the problem of inherited station as children don't know who their parents are and vice-versa, and you dont become arishok just because your daddy was arishok.

there seems to be a little more sexism in the qunari society though as plato suggests that women should be allowed in the military if the meet the same qualifications as the males in the military.

[Kinaori]

He was definitely interesting. I didn't agree with him, but you had to respect the guy. I do think he was my favorite adversary/enemy/whatever in the game for sure. Most interesting. (The duel SUCKED though. Terrible silly fight.)