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[Vicious]

He murdered the Viscount, by all accounts a good man, because he did not have a high opinion of him.

Acting on **** principles does not make you any less of an ****.

[ZombiePowered]

Vicious wrote...

He murdered the Viscount, by all accounts a good man, because he did not have a high opinion of him.

Acting on **** principles does not make you any less of an ****.

It doesn't matter how nice of a guy you are. Dumar stood in the way of progress, of the greater good for all of Kirkwall. One good man's life is a small price to pay for that.

This is just how I believe the Arishok saw it. I neither condemn nor endorse his actions.

[dreadpiratesnugglecakes]

ZombiePowered wrote...

Vicious wrote...

He murdered the Viscount, by all accounts a good man, because he did not have a high opinion of him.

Acting on **** principles does not make you any less of an ****.

It doesn't matter how nice of a guy you are. Dumar stood in the way of progress, of the greater good for all of Kirkwall. One good man's life is a small price to pay for that.

This is just how I believe the Arishok saw it. I neither condemn nor endorse his actions.

The Arishok felt the Qun way of life was superior and felt that it gave him the right to indiscriminately murder people and take over their city.  Oh, that's just the way he saw it.  Wow!  Way to stand up and value your way of life!  What progress was Dumar in the way of?  The Arishok finding his stupid book?  How can Dumar be in the way if he didn't even know that's what the Arishok was hanging around looking for?  The Arishok lied to Dumar about why the Quanari were still there. 

Let's try another one:  Your children are stupid and annoying!  I think they should be launched into outer space for the good of the species.  Is that a matter of opinion?  Or maybe I'm as much of a arrogant jerk as the Arishok was...

The Arishok was a worthy adversary but certainly not the best they've written.  He was a conqueror that had no respect for his enemy.  Not a unique or attractive trait and ended badly for him.  Not going to miss him.

[Talladarr]

I actually shed a tear when I had to kill him the first time. This playthrough I HAD intended to get Isabella's friendship/rivalry up and then turn her over to the Arishok so I wouldn't have to kill him, BUT then Istarted romancing her and that plan went down the drain >.< Next plkaythrough I'll just romance someone else and THEN give her to the Arishok. I NEED that achievement to earn his respect >.<

[Rifneno]

Talladarr wrote...

I actually shed a tear when I had to kill him the first time. This playthrough I HAD intended to get Isabella's friendship/rivalry up and then turn her over to the Arishok so I wouldn't have to kill him, BUT then Istarted romancing her and that plan went down the drain >.< Next plkaythrough I'll just romance someone else and THEN give her to the Arishok. I NEED that achievement to earn his respect >.<

You don't need to hand her over to get his respect.  I got the achievement even before he attacked the city.  Basically just be honest with him every chance you get, and talk to him when you think there's something he should know.  Like that the deligates went missing.

[Talladarr]

Oh, okay =D That makes me much happier
Soemoen told me I have to hand the Relic and Isabella over t oget it

[RubiconI7]

Agreed

My respect and interest of the Qunari comes mainly from the Arishok.

Your conflict with the Arishok is not even ideological, it is like you said, "an unstoppable force meeting an immovable object".

Everything he does is justified in his own belief, he is patient, shrewd, dedicated an responsible; everything a good leader should be. His attack of the Keep is from 6? years of insult and provocative action that goes against the "Qun" and Kirkwall's own "morals". Would Meredith stay her hand if someone provokes her for so long and in such a way?

The Arishok being the body of the Qun and one of the triumvirate, one does question if he has the authority to "invade". But he does this under the multiple occasions where his beliefs are insulted and his people harmed. Any leader, any "one" can be called to act such a way that he did.

[IronWolf1987]

I'm throwing my hat in with the Arishok haters. I won't get into it, because most of what I would say has been said, and I always feel that whenever I post something it always seems incredibly ineloquent.

[ozenglish]

In the my personal definition of the word rival, where he was your equal, a character that you respected because you could see the logic, that yes the city was more corrupt than Gotham City, and with every damned mage turning into an abomination (unlike Ferelden), you could actually understand the Qun's distrust for magic, then yes, I agree, he is Bioware's best Rival that I have had the honour of meeting. I did not want to fight him, and after being abominationed to death from blasted circle mages, I wanted so badly to help him raize Kirkwall to the ground and plough salt into the earth around it.

As for my favourite BW bad guy though, Dark Malak was more fun to watch. He irritated the daylights out of me, made me want to get my Dark Revan put her lovely red lightsaber through that gaping hole of of a mouth and finish severing his head...

Modifié par ozenglish, 30 mars 2011 - 06:05 .

[GodWood]

Definitely my favourite character in DA2.

[Mnemnosyne]

I don't really see anything worthy of respect in the Arishok or the Qun. The Arishok himself seems to simply be following the Qun, nothing more, and the Qun is an oppressive, absolutist way of life that strips all choices from a person other than to do whatever they are born to do. A Qunari can apparently never improve themselves, never rise above their station, etc.

Hell, even the dwarven caste system is far and away superior to the Qun, because at least if a dwarf's accomplishments are sufficiently great, he can become a Paragon, while from everything we've been shown, no Qunari can ever change their lot in life.

The Qun forever denies a living being's capacity for change. Whatever they are 'born as' it seems to claim they will always be thus, and the only other choice is nonexistence.

[Wulfram]

He's a treacherous, honourless murderer. Though admittedly one with a certain amount of style.

[Danjaru]

ZombiePowered wrote...

Danjaru wrote...

He doesn't care cause he can't understand any thinking outside of the Qun. He's extremely narrow minded and views all thinking outside of the Qun as blasphemy. He's kind of like a higher ranked Cult member that's been completely brain washed.

He has principles that he obeys. After three years in that corrupt, ignorant mess of a cesspool (read "Kirkwall") he simply couldn't let the people continue to exist in such an unenlightened state. He was going to open their eyes to the truth, whether they wanted it or not. You can call him a brainwashed cult member, but he is is quite similar to many organizations throughout history, e.g. the Catholic church conquering and converting/slaughtering the populace, European nations colonizing and "civilizing" many nations around the globe, and most recently America invading countries to install democracies. Unlike some of these organizations, however, the Arishok acted entirely on principle, not out of greed or glory or any such selfish reason.

And all those religions that conquered places were using brainwashed and corrupt people to do their bidding. Exact same thing, exactly as stupid.

[kyles3]

Koyasha wrote...

I don't really see anything worthy of respect in the Arishok or the Qun. The Arishok himself seems to simply be following the Qun, nothing more, and the Qun is an oppressive, absolutist way of life that strips all choices from a person other than to do whatever they are born to do. A Qunari can apparently never improve themselves, never rise above their station, etc.

Hell, even the dwarven caste system is far and away superior to the Qun, because at least if a dwarf's accomplishments are sufficiently great, he can become a Paragon, while from everything we've been shown, no Qunari can ever change their lot in life.

The Qun forever denies a living being's capacity for change. Whatever they are 'born as' it seems to claim they will always be thus, and the only other choice is nonexistence.

Eh, I don't know that it's that much worse than how Kirkwall "chooses" to live. Look at how the elves live; look at all the beggars in Lowtown, Darktown, and the Docks. What good has living "free" done for them? Would having a purpose forced upon them really be so much worse? Wouldn't some of them find it to be an improvement?

The Arishok is undoubtedly a misanthropic tyrant and religious fanatic, but I don't think he's completely wrong.

Modifié par kyles3, 30 mars 2011 - 12:31 .

[ZombiePowered]

dreadpiratesnugglecakes wrote...

ZombiePowered wrote...

Vicious wrote...

He murdered the Viscount, by all accounts a good man, because he did not have a high opinion of him.

Acting on **** principles does not make you any less of an ****.

It doesn't matter how nice of a guy you are. Dumar stood in the way of progress, of the greater good for all of Kirkwall. One good man's life is a small price to pay for that.

This is just how I believe the Arishok saw it. I neither condemn nor endorse his actions.

The Arishok felt the Qun way of life was superior and felt that it gave him the right to indiscriminately murder people and take over their city.  Oh, that's just the way he saw it.  Wow!  Way to stand up and value your way of life!  What progress was Dumar in the way of?  The Arishok finding his stupid book?  How can Dumar be in the way if he didn't even know that's what the Arishok was hanging around looking for?  The Arishok lied to Dumar about why the Quanari were still there. 

Let's try another one:  Your children are stupid and annoying!  I think they should be launched into outer space for the good of the species.  Is that a matter of opinion?  Or maybe I'm as much of a arrogant jerk as the Arishok was...

The Arishok was a worthy adversary but certainly not the best they've written.  He was a conqueror that had no respect for his enemy.  Not a unique or attractive trait and ended badly for him.  Not going to miss him.

This is what Europe did to colonize the Americas. Yes, I suppose they wiped out some happy, but barbaric, civilizations to do so, but because they did that technology, literacy, and, well, cultured civilizations were spread around the world.

And the Arishok did not attack Kirkwall for the Tome of Koslun. He attacked it because he couldn't bear to watch the corrupt and unjust exploit people and ruin their lives for their own selfish aims. He sought to bring his version of civilization to Kirkwall, a civilization that is often far more fulfilling for people that rotting in the slums whilst the wealthy take advantage of you.

Civilizations have been doing this since the dawn of time. Romans conquered vast tracts of land and brought their culture and civilization to these areas. They faciliated the spread of language, a writing system, and a great amount of important ideas. The armies of Islam conquered and converted many lands starting in 700 AD, and in doing so they brought a huge amount of ideas and civilization into these areas. They improved the status of women immensely, and later became a series of empires that made such intellectual advances as inventing algebra. Yes, good men died, but it is a small sacrifice in the name of progress for all mankind.

If the Arishok had succeeded, then the rich, lazy, corrupt nobles would have been thrown down. People would get jobs based on merit, not blood. Racism would've been eliminated, since all are equal under the Qun. Kirkwall would probably be better off under Qunari rule.

[Beerfish]

[quote]ZombiePowered wrote...


This is what Europe did to colonize the Americas. Yes, I suppose they wiped out some happy, but barbaric, civilizations to do so, but because they did that technology, literacy, and, well, cultured civilizations were spread around the world.

And the Arishok did not attack Kirkwall for the Tome of Koslun. He attacked it because he couldn't bear to watch the corrupt and unjust exploit people and ruin their lives for their own selfish aims. He sought to bring his version of civilization to Kirkwall, a civilization that is often far more fulfilling for people that rotting in the slums whilst the wealthy take advantage of you.

So he did this by killing a bunch of people, taking many as hostages and killing the leader who had been more than benevolent towards them.

Civilizations have been doing this since the dawn of time. Romans conquered vast tracts of land and brought their culture and civilization to these areas. They faciliated the spread of language, a writing system, and a great amount of important ideas. The armies of Islam conquered and converted many lands starting in 700 AD, and in doing so they brought a huge amount of ideas and civilization into these areas. They improved the status of women immensely, and later became a series of empires that made such intellectual advances as inventing algebra. Yes, good men died, but it is a small sacrifice in the name of progress for all mankind.

At least you acknowledge the conquering part because that is what the Qunari are all about.  conquer and submit.

If the Arishok had succeeded, then the rich, lazy, corrupt nobles would have been thrown down. People would get jobs based on merit, not blood. Racism would've been eliminated, since all are equal under the Qun. Kirkwall would probably be better off under Qunari rule.

Jobs based on merit?  The Qunari are all about labelling you early on and making you carry out certain tasks.  All are not equal under Qunari rule.

"When the qunari invade an area and capture the current citizens, they
offer them the opportunity to convert to their philosophy, or be sent to
work in prison camps. Any who resists either one are slain without
pity, but some of those who convert to the Qun claim to feel pity towards those who choose not to"

My biggest beef is just how hypocritical the Arishok is, and he hides behind the 'Qun' and you wouldn't understand.

Examples:  Hawke and the Dwarf wanting black powder quest.  He refuses to pay the dwarf for an implied service rendered.  When Hawke complains about not getting paid he immediately makes the Dwarf pay Hawke for his/her services rendered.

The stolen book, when returned he demands that the thief be take back with the Qunari to face whatever justice he has in mind, even though Hawke suggests letting them handle the punishement because they are in Kirkwall.  At the same time he takes in two elves who are murderes and have coveniently converted to avoid prosection and refuses to let them face justice for their crimes.

Last but not least, if the mages thought they had it bad before hand wait until they fall into Qunari hands.  Most likely executed immedaitely, if not face the same fate as the Qunari mages.

[Adokat]

I thought the Arishok was one of the high points in the game, and the conflict with him didn't feel as forced as what ends up happening in Act 3. I like how the relationship develops with the Arishok, and how the the carnage that he creates is not because he's "evil," but because he has some warped ideals.  I hope we get to see more of the Qunari in DA3.

After DA2, I find them very interesting and respect them as adversaries...but I've learned that those who follow the Qun cannot be trusted to keep the peace, and the only way to reason with them is with a blade.

Modifié par Adokat, 30 mars 2011 - 05:50 .

[raymonddhj]

This has become an ideology POV post. Personally I enjoyed fighting someone who was my equal or stronger. The Arishock is never justified. He could have hunted down the book, killed Isabella and left. Instead he had to sent a message. So Hawke sent one back. Does anyone remember the fear in his eyes after you had just bested him in combat. The look of questioning the Qun. He died because he crossed Hawke.

As far as the empire comparisons go history has shown that societies only succeed when people had the possibility of reaching for higher stations in life. I doubt the Arishock was born Arishock, he clearly had to prove his strength. Compare him as a leader to the Viscount. On strength alone he eclipses the Viscount. As far as maintaining order he eclipses him again. As far as doing what is right and protecting his people, the Arishock is a failure.

Hawke went from slave champion because he got off his but and worked for it. He did not settle for the slums b/c he was to that is where he belong. The idea that having someone or something dictate your limitations is something only the weak crave. Kirkwall would have still become a battle ground if the Arishock had taken over b/c there were plenty of Templars ready to throw down if given the command.

The viscount surrendered in an effort to protect the city. He died a pointless honnorable death. Had he lived the extremest would have surely killed him.

[ZombiePowered]

Beerfish wrote...

ZombiePowered wrote...


Thisis what Europe did to colonize the Americas. Yes, I suppose they wiped out some happy, but barbaric, civilizations to do so, but because they did that technology, literacy, and, well, cultured civilizations were
spread around the world.

And the Arishok did not attack Kirkwall for the Tome of Koslun. He attacked it because he couldn't bear to watch the corrupt and unjust exploit people and ruin their lives for their own selfish aims. He sought to bring his version of civilization to Kirkwall, a civilization that is often far more fulfilling for people that rotting in the slums whilst the wealthy take advantage of you.

So
he did this by killing a bunch of people, taking many as hostages and
killing the leader who had been more than benevolent towards them.

He took a bunch of corrupt abusive nobles as hostages. You know, the few who bled the many dry? Who sit on the fingers squabbling with each other while everyone else in the city suffers? They are large part of the reason the Arishok attacked in the first place. They have no right to be in charge.

Civilizationshave been doing this since the dawn of time. Romans conquered vast tracts of land and brought their culture and civilization to these areas. They faciliated the spread of language, a writing system, and a great amount of important ideas. The armies of Islam conquered and converted many lands starting in 700 AD, and in doing so they brought a huge amount of ideas and civilization into these areas. They improved the status of women immensely, and later became a series of empires that made such intellectual advances as inventing algebra. Yes, good men died, but it is a small sacrifice in the name of progress for all mankind.

At least you acknowledge the conquering part because that is what the Qunari are all about.  conquer and submit.

That is partially what the arms, legs and eyes are about. That is only one piece of their role, but it is an essential one. However, that is not what all Qunari are about. They are far more technologically advanced than Thedas, and they offer an end to unfair, cruel mistreatment based on who you were born as. (unless you are a mage, but I'll save that for later).

If the Arishok had succeeded, then the rich, lazy, corrupt nobles would have been thrown down. People would get jobs based on merit, not blood. Racism would've been eliminated, since all are equal under the Qun.
Kirkwall would probably be better off under Qunari rule.

Jobs
based on merit?  The Qunari are all about labelling you early on and making you carry out certain tasks.  All are not equal under Qunari rule.

They give you a job based on your aptitude at a task. You aren't born into it, that is everything the Qunari are against. You perform the role that will best benefit the whole of society.

"When the qunari invade an area and capture the current citizens, they offer them the opportunity to convert to their philosophy, or be sent to work in prison camps. Any who resists either one are slain without
pity, but some of those who convert to the Qun claim to feel pity towards those who choose not to"

My biggest beef is just how hypocritical the Arishok is, and he hides behind the 'Qun' and you wouldn't understand.

That isn't hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is condemning something and doing it at the same time. I dare you to find an instance where the Qunari do this.

Examples: Hawke and the Dwarf wanting black powder quest.  He refuses to pay the dwarf for an implied service rendered.  When Hawke complains about not getting paid he immediately makes the Dwarf pay Hawke for his/her services rendered.

Javaris did promise you money. The Arishok made him uphold that promise.

The stolen book, when returned he demands thatthe thief be take back with the Qunari to face whatever justice he has in mind, even though Hawke suggests letting them handle the punishement because they are in Kirkwall.  At the same time he takes in two elves who are murderes and have coveniently converted to avoid prosection and
refuses to let them face justice for their crimes.

There is a difference between someone stealing a priceless artifact for her own personal gain and protecting two people who murdered a man for raping their sister, a crime that wasn't going to be punished because humans consider elves second-class citizens, if they consider them citizens at all. Which many don't. He was standing against an injustice within our own society there. The fact that he demanded Isabela return to Par Vollen with him makes him less of a hypocrite, as once again he is standing against an injustice.

Last but not least, if the mages thought they had it bad before hand wait until they fall into Qunari hands.  Most likely executed immedaitely, if not face the same fate as the Qunari mages.

No evidence that they would but executed immediately, but that is little comfort. Being a mage in Qunari society is one of the worse fates out there.

Modifié par ZombiePowered, 30 mars 2011 - 09:46 .

[RolandX9]

RubiconI7 wrote...<snip>

Everything he does is justified in his own belief, he is patient, shrewd, dedicated an responsible; everything a good leader should be. His attack of the Keep is from 6? years of insult and provocative action that goes against the "Qun" and Kirkwall's own "morals". Would Meredith stay her hand if someone provokes her for so long and in such a way?

Three years, and yes, Meredith would and does go exactly that long if she feels it necessary. A Mage Champion is probably the world's most politically powerful apostate, and she puts up with you for three years. You can even bring an abomination and/or blood mage with you when you talk to Meredith without her going all stabbity at that point.

Really, the Arishok and Meredith are almost the same character. The primary differences are that the Arishok is cooler, and he's written with a more consistent personality.

[TeamRyan]

RolandX9 wrote...

Three years, and yes, Meredith would and does go exactly that long if she feels it necessary. A Mage Champion is probably the world's most politically powerful apostate, and she puts up with you for three years. You can even bring an abomination and/or blood mage with you when you talk to Meredith without her going all stabbity at that point.

Really, the Arishok and Meredith are almost the same character. The primary differences are that the Arishok is cooler, and he's written with a more consistent personality.

And that he didn't abuse his power and reach beyond his station.

Meredith is explicitely stated to be the real power in Kirkwall, and that the Viscount was essentially her puppet or couldn't make a move or decision with out her approval. This is proven when she blocks the nobility from ushering in a new viscount for three years after the previous ones death.

As opposed to the Arishok who out right refuses to take another position in the Qun and try to convert people because it is not his place to do so. (now whether people willingly convert to the qun is out of his control)

I guess the main difference between them is that Meredith wanted more than her position allowed and the Arishok was satisfied being just the Arishok, and not the Ariqun. Or that Meredith was looking for a reason to purge the circle and the Arishok was trying to avoid blood shed.

[Mnemnosyne]

ZombiePowered wrote...

They give you a job based on your aptitude at a task. You aren't born into it, that is everything the Qunari are against. You perform the role that will best benefit the whole of society.

Says who?  When?  I have seen no evidence of this.  I've seen evidence of exactly the opposite.  Mages aren't the only ones who are given an absolute role based on what they were born as.

"Women are priests, artisans, shopkeepers, or farmers.  They don't fight." -Sten

So, mages and women are forced into very specific roles under the Qun, one of which is some of the most horrible mistreatment one can imagine for a living being.  Not only that, but they are indoctrinated into believing this is right.  So much that the saarebas one encounters kills himself because of the possibility that he 'may' be corrupted because he was outside his karataam.

Even if your idea that they give you a job based on your aptitude at a task is true (citation please?  I haven't heard any quotes in this throughout any of the games or the novels that I can recall) it doesn't apply to well over half the population.

[Radwar]

Having played all of Bioware's games (except the Sonic game), personally the best was easily Jon Irenicus from Baldur's Gate 2. The rest are far behind.

[FedericoV]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Adversary, not villain, because even though he let someone make off with plans for poisonous gas, stormed the Keep, and murdered the Viscount, I think that he was both justified and in the right.

The Arishok, and the conflict with the radical elements of the Chantry, is what makes Act 2 the most satisfying part of the game.

I completely agree.

[jadefishes]

Yes, to skip the ideology POVs, I'll go with agreeing that the Arishok was my favorite rival. I loathed Meredith's willingness to throw the mage baby out with the bathwater just in case any mage might have been dabbling in blood magic, and I lost all respect for Orsino after finding out he had provided covert support for Hawke's mother's murderer.

Whether I agree with the Qun or not, I saw the Arishok as hewing closest to his group's ideals, unlike both Meredith and Orsino. There are other Knight-Commanders who managed to keep their mages under some kind of control without turning into fascists, and Orsino just betrayed all the ideals of the circle.

If I had to choose one of the three to follow, even with my personal distaste for the values of the Qun, it would be the Arishok.

Okay, so maybe I didn't skip the ideology POV entirely. At least I'm not saying I want to kill him because his religion disgusts me. That statement disgusted me.

Modifié par jadefishes, 30 mars 2011 - 11:51 .