240 réponses à ce sujet

[TeamRyan]

Wasn't Saren racist and willing to kill humans for the heck of it just because before he was even indoctrinated? Did he join the reapers to save everyone or to save himself?

[Kov]

Saren had two reasons to hate humans: first, his brother was killed during the First Contact War, and second, he thought humanity had too many influence in the Citadel (in a few years, we became more important than many races who were there since centuries ago). He's not the only one who thinks humans are expanding too fast, or that we're a dangerous and aggressive race.
I've read Revelation, I know he's a bastard with or without indoctrination, but he's not worse than Renegade Shepard.

About the reapers, he said he needed to show them that organics could be useful, so they wouldn't kill them all. He wanted to save at least some people... Absolute extinction vs. survival of a few. I don't see that evil at all.

[Downtown1]

Arishok was pure awesome. Too bad he was basically only around for one Act (Act II, and a tiny bit of Act I if you did some side quests).

[The Angry One]

Arishok - Best BioWare Adversary?

[Arppis]

Arishok, adversary best served cold.

[Zan Mura]

Well the fight sucks, of course. But as a plot character with the dialogue, cutscenes, music, voice acting, writing and the whole package besides the combat... he's definitely top-grade. Personally though I totally idolize Sarevok and Saren. So I can't really place the Arishok above them. I'd say if there's a top 3, then the Arishok is there. With a longer and more epic plotline, with much more story and dialogue about the Arishok and the battle, he could well have made it to the very top besting even Saren and Sarevok. A damn good character overall.

[Torax]

Koyasha wrote...

TeamRyan wrote...

@Koyasha

Doesn't Sten conclude that the warden isn't a female in the end. because by definition women don't fight. what I got from that is that if there is a Qunari woman who is better suited as a fighter she is no longer considered a women in gender.

because there is a difference between gender and sex. In many cultures genders are assigned not birthed.

If this were the case, that entire line of conversation would make no sense.  It starts out with "you look like a woman."  If female Qunari are allowed to fight if they're good at it, then it follows that Sten would never have this sort of confusion, since he would have seen female Qunari that 'aren't women,' so why would the Warden being female and also fighting confuse him?

I also recall no such dialogue, though I may have missed or never seen it if it exists.

Keep in mind also that the Qun belief is women are generally more intelligent than males. So females are prefered for things like running Business and other intellectual work. Also why they are more likely to be the minds of the Qunari. So they are almost more valued than the Males. Probably why Sten is so confused at why a woman would even want to fight. Also why Sten approves if you make Bella the head of the Tavern in Redcliffe.

Qunari are very calm and follow an extremely strick code. Their main flaw and strength is the certainty that they have in it. It also leads to a belief that all others are inferior and uneducated. But strength like that is probably why they've been able to hold of the Imperium from retaking Seheron.

[bztang]

Although I respect the Arishok and the Qun, the Qunari's lack of individuality and freedom is reminiscent of policies imposed by past totalitarian regimes of our world.
As an antagonist, the most memorable impression that the Arishok left was his awesome voice and possibly his very large horns (how does he sleep?)

Nonetheless, I would love if BioWare would bring us to Par Vollen/Seheron in a DLC and/or include a female Qunari/Tal-Vashoth party member, because they just look awesome:

[Bayz]

Torax wrote...

Keep in mind also that the Qun belief is women are generally more intelligent than males. So females are prefered for things like running Business and other intellectual work. Also why they are more likely to be the minds of the Qunari. So they are almost more valued than the Males. Probably why Sten is so confused at why a woman would even want to fight. Also why Sten approves if you make Bella the head of the Tavern in Redcliffe.

Yeah like your middle ages average european guy. They wanted the women to stay in the bedchamber spwawning children because deep inside they knew they every other activity was just going to take them too little effort they may become bored...

While I don't buy the "they are the minds of the qunari" I'd say someone has to keep the economy going on while the men are basically dying overseas. I haven't read anywhere the Qun believes female more intelligents so far...only they are better than males in management positions.

Torax wrote...

Qunari are very calm and follow an extremely strick code. Their main flaw and strength is the certainty that they have in it. It also leads to a belief that all others are inferior and uneducated. But strength like that is probably why they've been able to hold of the Imperium from retaking Seheron.

That and that, let's be honest, for what we've seen of the Tevinter so far (in the Tevinter people we've met), they suck miserably at everything. I am impressed they made it this far into Thedan history.

You may call it strenght, I call it inflexibility. The Chantry has its own version of this too...as do the circle etc...Is more a flaw as doesn't really make them adapt themselves too much if new threats arise...look at how easily Hawke dispatched them in Act 2 if you decide to slaughter them all.

It was amusing to see how if you accept the challenge of the Arishok (playing by their rules) you've got a very though fight but if you decide playing by "house rules" and attack them the difficulty decreases significatively.

I for one  didn't accepted his challenge, we were at Kirkwall and Kirkwall didn't accepted the Qun as the main law system. If they wanted to live in a place that accepted the Qun as main philosophy or play by Qun rules, shove off. If you can't because of the relic then accept to abide the rules of the hosts that allow you to live in, not try to judge them. They were guests and Kirkwall was kind enough too let them stay only to be assaulted 4 years after because they didn't  want to abide by Kirkwall's rules, that  was when all the Qun philosophies fell in my point of view.

That said I don't  own Mass Effect 1/2 so I haven't played all the Bioware games. Sarevok showed me that Chaotic Evil can be taken by real Magnificient Bastards, not only ax crazy guys...and Melissan took it up to eleven. But they are Black isle not Bioware's

[SIx_Foot_Imp]

Ya the conflict with the Arishock was probably the best written part of the plot. both him and petrice were well thought out character that kept their convictions to the end, the fact that the leaders of both factions didn't transform into psychopaths at the very end (unlike some leaders) probably helped the writing a lot. I also liked how similar the qunari philosophy and society matches what we thought the communist utopia would look like. The sneaky way they hid the political message has shown a lot of people just how so many got swept up in the dream of a perfect society of ordered individuals. the conflict between the western inspired chantry and the qunari then takes on an even deeper symbolic meaning. I use to have a friend who was an active member of the Canadian communist party an we had alot of conversations along the same line as Hawke and the Arishock.

[Bayz]

Hmmm? Which communist utopia has a caste system implemented within it? I have friends in the communist party of my country and they seem to despise the Qun as much as they do fascism...

Communism is basically about breaking frames to give choices (the utopic kind I mean not the implemented). Everyone is equal so you can choose what you want to do to help society (or so I've been told, not a communist myself). The Qun forbids that as you have a role in society that you don't choose and mus fulfil it until you die.

The concept of "order" as in there is more akin to an Orwellian utopia I think.

Modifié par Bayz, 01 avril 2011 - 10:51 .

[Torax]

People would be hard pressed to find an example in real life to truly meet the Qunari and their Qun. Seeing as it's fiction for a race in a game. The thing that probably angers the Chantry the most is the Qun is not a religion. There is no diety. It's just a society. The Qunari themselves seem to live their lives with a strong certainty. Could see how some of the beaten down citizens of other regions would long for a purpose, job, goal.

It's not like other societies in Thedas are any better. For example how it's more dangerous for a dwarf to live in Orzimmar than to be on the Surface. I'm sure many of the Castless would probably join the Qun if they were given the option.

[Tripedius]

Maybe if his onscreen time had been more or his role had been bigger he could have become a memorable adversary. As it stand now he's just another brainless mob with lots of health. Seriously if people already think this is good writing I can see why Bioware doesn't bother anymore.

[SIx_Foot_Imp]

I guess its not so much the utopia of communism, and more just how communist state presented themselves. in china the government plays a big role in what opportunities you have in life. the very best in athletics and academics are picked out early and streamed into the best programs to allow those children to make the future society the best it can be while under performers are streamlined to less demanding jobs. Or at least this is how i understood it was suppose to work, (they have made a lot of changes as capitalism spread there) Also in the Qun the whole idea is that everyone has a specific purpose and role that benefits the society and that by finding that role both the person and the society is enriched. in communism everyone is equal because all jobs enriches the community and every role is vital for the running of the community from masons to poets. theoretically we would all choose the role that best suits us and the community but in practice you often need the government to hand out roles so that all the positions are filled. The qunari dont actually think they are forcing people to chose roles they are just guiding them to the best and most fulfilling way to live their lives. Following the Qun or not is everyone's choice, they just kill or enslave anyone who doesn't because dissidents spread chaos and unhappiness like a desies.(in their opinion)

Just need to note that this post discusses politics but does not make any political opinions if you feel i have it was done unintentionally.

Modifié par SIx_Foot_Imp, 01 avril 2011 - 11:17 .

[v_ware]

No.

Darth Malak and Saren were better IMO.

[Aldandil]

Bayz wrote...

Torax wrote...

Keep in mind also that the Qun belief is women are generally more intelligent than males. So females are prefered for things like running Business and other intellectual work. Also why they are more likely to be the minds of the Qunari. So they are almost more valued than the Males. Probably why Sten is so confused at why a woman would even want to fight. Also why Sten approves if you make Bella the head of the Tavern in Redcliffe.

Yeah like your middle ages average european guy. They wanted the women to stay in the bedchamber spwawning children because deep inside they knew they every other activity was just going to take them too little effort they may become bored...

While I don't buy the "they are the minds of the qunari" I'd say someone has to keep the economy going on while the men are basically dying overseas. I haven't read anywhere the Qun believes female more intelligents so far...only they are better than males in management positions.

Torax wrote...

Qunari are very calm and follow an extremely strick code. Their main flaw and strength is the certainty that they have in it. It also leads to a belief that all others are inferior and uneducated. But strength like that is probably why they've been able to hold of the Imperium from retaking Seheron.

That and that, let's be honest, for what we've seen of the Tevinter so far (in the Tevinter people we've met), they suck miserably at everything. I am impressed they made it this far into Thedan history.

You may call it strenght, I call it inflexibility. The Chantry has its own version of this too...as do the circle etc...Is more a flaw as doesn't really make them adapt themselves too much if new threats arise...look at how easily Hawke dispatched them in Act 2 if you decide to slaughter them all.

It was amusing to see how if you accept the challenge of the Arishok (playing by their rules) you've got a very though fight but if you decide playing by "house rules" and attack them the difficulty decreases significatively.

I for one  didn't accepted his challenge, we were at Kirkwall and Kirkwall didn't accepted the Qun as the main law system. If they wanted to live in a place that accepted the Qun as main philosophy or play by Qun rules, shove off. If you can't because of the relic then accept to abide the rules of the hosts that allow you to live in, not try to judge them. They were guests and Kirkwall was kind enough too let them stay only to be assaulted 4 years after because they didn't  want to abide by Kirkwall's rules, that  was when all the Qun philosophies fell in my point of view.

That said I don't  own Mass Effect 1/2 so I haven't played all the Bioware games. Sarevok showed me that Chaotic Evil can be taken by real Magnificient Bastards, not only ax crazy guys...and Melissan took it up to eleven. But they are Black isle not Bioware's

I would like to say that I agree with you in your analysis of the Qun. It's not really a meritocracy, instead people's lives are being determined by rather arbitrary decisions. It might be more efficient than the system of government in Kirkwall (and it might not be, generally totalitarian regimes are very inefficient), but that would have to be because Kirkwall for some reason is inefficient. It's also possible that the Qun works very well for the fantasy race with horns that we normally mean when we say Qunari (I know the race has another name, but I can't recall what it is), but it wouldn't work with humans, and to have humans adapt to the Qun is the goal of the Qunari.

Also, I think the Arishok is a more interesting character than both Sarevok and Melissan, since both of them acted  out of selfish reasons, not very interesting but fitting with that setting. I liked Irenicus better, but that's only based in David Warner's voice acting. Please note that all three were Bioware characters, Black Isle was only the publisher.

[Bayz]

Aldandil wrote...

I would like to say that I agree with you in your analysis of the Qun. It's not really a meritocracy, instead people's lives are being determined by rather arbitrary decisions. It might be more efficient than the system of government in Kirkwall (and it might not be, generally totalitarian regimes are very inefficient), but that would have to be because Kirkwall for some reason is inefficient. It's also possible that the Qun works very well for the fantasy race with horns that we normally mean when we say Qunari (I know the race has another name, but I can't recall what it is), but it wouldn't work with humans, and to have humans adapt to the Qun is the goal of the Qunari.

Well it wan't ever meant to be a meritocracy. Is more a caste system in my point of view. How those castes are chosen I do not know, but the mentality of "You were chosen to do this and can't slip from the path a little because then you will not be anymore" definitely NOT a meritocracy.

Aldandil wrote...
Also, I think the Arishok is a more interesting character than both Sarevok and Melissan, since both of them acted  out of selfish reasons, not very interesting but fitting with that setting. I liked Irenicus better, but that's only based in David Warner's voice acting. Please note that all three were Bioware characters, Black Isle was only the publisher.

That has to do with alignment systems (voices shouting "Ohh god not not that again!!" in the  background of  my head) The Arishok seems too be more about abiding strict codes and  laws which come from the owns he was raised in. Sarevok and Melissan were mostly about themselves and the Evulz.

The Arishok would be lawful neutral with the lawful meaning the qun not the law of the land, the other two were chaotic evil.

The reason I like both Melissan and Sarevok is not the real "quality" of them as villiains, but mostly that it was the first time my narrow mind confronted the idea of Chaotic Evil characters planning stuff ahead. In my 2nd ed D&D player times that was mind blowing (the very fact they communicated by  words instead of grumbles was in itself )

For the second bit  apologize, I did not know Black isle was only the publisher.

[JediHealerCosmin]

It's debatable, but I'm gonna have to go with either Darth Malak or Saren. 

[NKKKK]

Harbinger is the best BW villain, what you talking about son?

his brother was killed during the First Contact War

Actually Mac Walters now says you're wrong.

Modifié par NKKKK, 01 avril 2011 - 12:28 .

[Wulfram]

I wonder if people would like the Qunari so much if they openly called foreigners "thing", rather than leaving it untranslated as "bas".

[Bayz]

They will by word while saying stuff like Archie Bunker in the insides.

Bloody Qunari are here for our hawt women (Aveline appears) and our wonderful jobs (The miners from that dragon infested mine appear) ><

Now that you mention it is quite bugging that they are "bas" and you are a "refu", you gotta be 2 metres tall + horns to get some respect in this city it seems

Modifié par Bayz, 01 avril 2011 - 12:59 .

[lenkite]

Hell..I felt sorry for him even after dueling for 50 minutes (hard mode, warrior Hawke) before putting a sword through his chest....He followed what he believed in - the Qun right till his end and he was always honorable. And his voice - amazing! You couldn't move when he spoke, the tension heralding the onslaught of a storm.

[highcastle]

Jon Irenicus is still the best BioWare adversary ever.

Honestly, I don't really get why so many people like the Arishok or the Qunari culture in general. What's appealing about a society that forces you into one role for your entire life, that never asks your opinion on this, that never gives you the chance to be something more or something else? What's appealing about guys who sew shut the mouths of their mages, who strap them in chains and wield them as weapons? They were worse than the templars with their treatment of their mages. Even the term they have for them means "dangerous thing," implying they don't think the mages are people. That's a sickening thought, really.

The Arishok himself embodies all of this. He has no concern for Ketojan in Shepherding Wolves--the one Qunari character I've come to like, respect, and care about. He allows dangerous poisonous gas to be stolen and is unconcerned with the ensuing loss of life. Why? Because a book was stolen. Really? This is it? You're searching for a religious relic and you're justifying the slaughter of a city full of innocents to get it back?

Maybe it's just because I'm not a fan of crusaders in general. Maybe it's because I've been told to "stay in the kitchen" before and thus can't stand the idea of being born into a role you can never escape. But I can't stand the Arishok or the Qunari. In a good way, mind you. It takes good writing to make me hate a fictional character.

[BlackwindTheCommander]

I'm BlackwindTheCommander and I support the Arishok as the Mass Effect 3 villain