22 réponses à ce sujet

[Lexiath]

Hello all!

I've just done the quest Family Matters (Varrics companion quest with Bartrand).

In the quest we find Bartrand completely Mad (with a capital M). The cuase being the Idol we found in the deep roads. It's been said by his steward that he was cutting his servants into pieces. Took meat from them. Bartrand himself says he was hearing a song. A song that was apparantly so mesmerizing that he never wanted to stop hearing it. He said the Idol wanted to be worshipped. The Idol in question was made of Lyrium - special Lyrium supposedly. This made me think about a few things.

Lyrium.

Mages die instantly when exposed to Raw Lyrium; others go insane. Refined lyrium makes mages capable of entering the fade and helps templars develop anti-mage skills (apparantly). Prolonged contact with/consumption of lyrium is said to mutate people (the magisters of the tevinter imperium being a prime example). The only place were the mineral can be mined is far underground. The dwarves are the only ones who can mine it and sell it in relatively small amounts to the surface. The darkspawn are comprised of mutated Dwarves, Elves,Humans, etc. The most common Darkspawn is a genlock- a mutated Dwarf.

The Song.

The way dwarves find lyrium veins is by listening. Lyrium sings.  If we are to believe the Mother from Awakening, she and other darkspawn continually hear a song in their heads too. Bartrand heard a song in his head. The song seems to be the reason for Bartrand murdering his servants and shattering his mind and the reason for the darkspawn slaughtering everything in their path. What is the origin of this song? It appears to be lyrium?

The Dwarven Empire.

We know the Dwarven Empire was huge. It covered a great expanse of the known world in width and I suppose also in depth. The Dwarven Empire was where the Darkspawn first appeared.
In Dragon Age 2 we discover an ancient Primeval Thaig. Having been build way before the first blight and incredibly deep in the deep roads. A codex entry that we can find in this Thaig is about a Dwarven smithshouse  that lived here. These Dwarves closed themselves off from the rest of the dwarven empire.  When other dwarves finally managed to get into the thaig the dwarves that lived here had vanished - leaving only a dark lyrium sword.

This sword caused trouble and the then dwarven king had the thaig sealed off with the sword in it. One can assume these dwarves that had vanished from the Thaig suffered the same corruption and madness that Bartrand did and that the reason the dwarven king sealed that sword was becuase it was mutating and corrupting everyone who held it.

The Thaig itself was also completely different from other Dwarven Thaigs. Nothing in the Thaig suggested Paragon worship as has been said to the disbelieve of Bartrand himself when we discovered it. Though dwarves have always worshipped Paragons. The area surrounding the thaig appears normal too. These Dwarves worshipped something else though and remodeled their thaig accordingly.

My point?

The Lyrium that Idol/sword was made if couldn't be the only existing Lyrium of that type I'd wager and appears to have sentient thought. A will. Even normal lyrium is dangerous. It makes me think that the use of Lyrium is the reason for the existence and appearance of the Darkspawn. The Dwarven use of Lyrium was what caused the creation of Darkspawn. It's the reason why the Darkspawn first appeared in the deep roads. Why the dwarven empire was the first to fall. The dwarven dealings in lyrium with the tevinter empire caused the corruption of it's magisters and the empire as a whole. There is something older and more dangerous in the deepest reaches of the earth than the old gods and the darkspawn themselves. The Old Gods don't want to be tainted I'd wager.

Lyrium is something unimaginable. It has sentient thought a will, it has power. It mutates and corrupts all that comes near it, touches it, uses it.

What is Lyrium?

[Pileyourbodies]

Seems reasonable but the darkspawn don't hear Lyrium singing they hear the old god singing.

What i'm saying is i don't think Lyrium has anything to do with darkspawn.

Modifié par Pileyourbodies, 16 mars 2011 - 04:15 .

[Everwarden]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

Seems reasonable but the darkspawn don't hear Lyrium singing they hear the old god singing.

What i'm saying is i don't think Lyrium has anything to do with darkspawn.

The lyrium idol is an old god! That explains everything!

DUN DUN DUUUUNNN!

[Taleroth]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

Seems reasonable but the darkspawn don't hear Lyrium singing they hear the old god singing.

It's actually not known if the Old God is doing the singing or not.  There was a discussion on this long ago that I recall, such that someone pointed out that it's never revealed the the song the Darkspawn hear comes from Old Gods, only that it leads them to Old Gods.

It's neat to think that maybe corrupt lyrium is where it originates.

[Helena Tylena]

They hear 'singing'. It's assumed this is an Old God, but could just as well be Lyrium guiding them there.
I like your theory, Lexiath. One thing, though: Darkspawn aren't mutated dwarves/humans/elves/qunari. Broodmothers are.

[PantheraOnca]

The first darkspawn were the tevinter mages according to game lore, so its not the dwarves who first encountered darkspawn as far as we know.

Song is an important force in the world of thedas. Song got the Maker's attention, song drives the darksong, and lyrium sings to the dwarves. I don't think this means that its all the same song, or that the lyrium and darkspawn songs are related; I think its just an attempt to show the importance of song in thedas. The only thing that seems to rival song in potential power is blood in thedas.

If anyone finds a bloodsong or a bloodsinger or a bleeding tune, gtfo and run for your life.

[Taleroth]

PantheraOnca wrote...

The first darkspawn were the tevinter mages according to game lore, so its not the dwarves who first encountered darkspawn as far as we know.

No, it's according to chantry lore.  This is distinct from "game lore" as those within the game call question to it.  Including the Dwarves.

You can find someone question it as early as Ostagar, when Wynne suspects it may be simple allegory.

Modifié par Taleroth, 16 mars 2011 - 04:30 .

[Helena Tylena]

There's no tangible proof that says the Maker even exists. Yes, there's magic and spirits and demons and the fade, but "the fact of their existence does not presuppose an intelligent design by some absentee father-figure." It very much is possible that the first Darkspawn weren't created by Tevinter mages 'blackening the golden city' or that they were even involved at all.
If they were, it was most likely something really screwed up they did in the Deep Roads, not the Fade.

[jabajack]

Hmm could it be that lyrium by itself does sing, due to magic or just be blue shiney rock. It is with the darkspawn/archdemon that the lyrium becomes corrupted and turns red?. Dwarves having a natural immunity to lyrium were able to build the thaig and sword before becoming mad (turning into the profane perhaps?) while Bartrand quickly devolved into madness due to being a surfacer.

[Helena Tylena]

I have actually no idea what colour lyrium is supposed to be. Lyrium potions and lyrium veins are blue, but lyrium dust is red...

[Pileyourbodies]

The corrupted lyrium is also redish as is the idol.

[dwinning]

Taleroth wrote...

Pileyourbodies wrote...

Seems reasonable but the darkspawn don't hear Lyrium singing they hear the old god singing.

It's actually not known if the Old God is doing the singing or not.  There was a discussion on this long ago that I recall, such that someone pointed out that it's never revealed the the song the Darkspawn hear comes from Old Gods, only that it leads them to Old Gods.

It's neat to think that maybe corrupt lyrium is where it originates.

The Old Gods will call to you,
From their ancient prisons they will sing.
Dragons with wicked eyes and wicked hearts,
On blacken'd wings does deceit take flight,
The first of My children, lost to night.
-Silence 3:6, Dissonant Verse

Lyrium is the blood of the Old Gods.

[Lexiath]

Helena Tylena wrote...

They hear 'singing'. It's assumed this is an Old God, but could just as well be Lyrium guiding them there.
I like your theory, Lexiath. One thing, though: Darkspawn aren't mutated dwarves/humans/elves/qunari. Broodmothers are.

I'm quoting Hespith's rhyme thing from origins:
"First day, they come and catch everyone.
Second day, they beat us and eat some for meat.
Third day, the men are gnawed on again.
Fourth day, we wait and fear for our fate.
Fifth day, they return and it's another girl's turn.
Sixth day, her screams we hear in our dreams.
Seventh day, she grew as in her mouth they spew.
Eighth day, we hated as she is violated.
Ninth day, she grins and devours her kin.
Now she does feast, as she's become the beast."

Broodmothers were mutated Humans, Elves, Dwares, Qunari - true. The other darkspawn are too I believe. Genlocks are Dwarves, Shrieks  are Elves,  Qunari are Ogres and Hurlocks Human. They each spawn from their respective broodmother. Bartrand's behaviour though had a LOT in common with a regular darkspawn and Hespith chant.

First day Bartrand came and trapped everyone all his servants in his room. Second day he beat them and took pieces of meat from them (although for what purpose I don't know, I am assuming to...eat?).

The steward heared a lot of screaming from Bartrands room and when we confront Bartrand he is raving on about a beautiful song which he wants to hear again and worship. This reminded me a lot about the Mother's obsession in awakening to wanting the hear the song again.

Bartrand obviously isn't a darkspawn. I may be reading too much into his behaviour compared to a darkspawn . Though his behaviour was very similar. Dwarves have great resistance to lyrium and magic, that's probably what allowed them to make the Idol / sword before turning mad. But imagining more of that kind of dark lyrium being in the deepest places of the deep roads could cause more dwarves to have acted the same way Bartrand did eventually. This could explain why the dwarven king sealed the thaig and why when the darkspawn first appeared it were the most remote thaigs that were the first to be lost. 

We know that the Tevinter Magisters didn't look really human anymore becuase of their excessive lyrium use which caused mutations. And that was presumably normal Lyrium. Dwarves being in contact with that dark kind of lyrium for decades that corrupted Bartrand in those 3 years he held it.... how much would they resemble a regular genlock by then? Since dwarven women can turn into broodmothers, which in turn produce darkspawn babies by the thousands... voila sudden mass darkspawn appearance in the deep roads makes sort of sense.

That and Dwarves leave the casteless out of their shaperate memories, I can imagine them omitting this from the memories too. Can't wait till we explore more of the deep roads!

[Taleroth]

dwinning wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

Pileyourbodies wrote...

Seems reasonable but the darkspawn don't hear Lyrium singing they hear the old god singing.

It's actually not known if the Old God is doing the singing or not.  There was a discussion on this long ago that I recall, such that someone pointed out that it's never revealed the the song the Darkspawn hear comes from Old Gods, only that it leads them to Old Gods.

It's neat to think that maybe corrupt lyrium is where it originates.

The Old Gods will call to you,
From their ancient prisons they will sing.
Dragons with wicked eyes and wicked hearts,
On blacken'd wings does deceit take flight,
The first of My children, lost to night.
-Silence 3:6, Dissonant Verse

Lyrium is the blood of the Old Gods.

It's a nice theory, but I hope you're not mistaking the Chantry's holy book for fact.

[Helena Tylena]

Darkspawn spawn from mutated humans/dwarves/etc, but they don't belong to those races. They are darkspawn, their own race. Broodmothers aren't technically darkspawn, but ghouls. Paraphrasing David Gaider's words on this.

Also, Hespith's rhyme ends with the single word 'Broodmother', confirming that the girl she talked about turned into the fleshy monstrocity you have to fight a few moments later.

It could, however, very well be that the idol is doing to Bartrand what was done to whoever caused the first Blight.

[dwinning]

[/quote]

The Old Gods will call to you,
From their ancient prisons they will sing.
Dragons with wicked eyes and wicked hearts,
On blacken'd wings does deceit take flight,
The first of My children, lost to night.
-Silence 3:6, Dissonant Verse

Lyrium is the blood of the Old Gods. [/quote] It's a nice theory, but I hope you're not mistaking the Chantry's holy book for fact.
[/quote]

Oh no, my theory is that the Maker and the Dread Wolf - who locked the Old Gods away - are one and the same, and that the chantry (with it's efforts to control magic and crush cultures that do not control theirs) is one of the Wolf/Maker's effort's to guard against means that would free the Old Gods.  The verse is the Wolf/Maker urging that the Old Gods' call be resisted. 

[PantheraOnca]

dwinning wrote...


Oh no, my theory is that the Maker and the Dread Wolf - who locked the Old Gods away - are one and the same, and that the chantry (with it's efforts to control magic and crush cultures that do not control theirs) is one of the Wolf/Maker's effort's to guard against means that would free the Old Gods.  The verse is the Wolf/Maker urging that the Old Gods' call be resisted. 

I had that idea too. Go us.

There's also the possibility that the dwarves and the elves used to share the same pantheon and that the line in the profane codex entry, "and so we feasted upon the gods" is what happened when the elven gods stopped responding to elven pleas/worship/whatever.

[Vandicus]

Helena Tylena wrote...

There's no tangible proof that says the Maker even exists. Yes, there's magic and spirits and demons and the fade, but "the fact of their existence does not presuppose an intelligent design by some absentee father-figure." It very much is possible that the first Darkspawn weren't created by Tevinter mages 'blackening the golden city' or that they were even involved at all.
If they were, it was most likely something really screwed up they did in the Deep Roads, not the Fade.

I say that the Ashes of Andraste and the Guardian in addition to Leliana's possible resurrection/saving from certain death are tangible proof that something exists. I actually support the theory that the Maker was an extremely powerful spirit and that Andraste was a mage. Makes the most sense to me since he lived in the Fade.

Could you be a bit clearer in your statement as to whether you believe that the Maker as the Chantry envisions him doesn't exist, or as the Maker is completely nonexistant?

[Nimander]

I personally don't know if the Maker exists. In DA:O, if you take Oghren to the ashes, he says the ashes are basically hugely laced with lyrium, and that that much lyrium can have weird effects. It's possible just the weird combo of lyrium and such in the ashes is what gave it (with magic, remember, the mage used magic too) to heal the Arl.

Leliana's a story retcon thing, till told otherwise.

Personally, I think Andraste was a Dreamer, like the young elf Feynriel. She would meditate for long periods of time and bad things happened to the Tevinter -- and Dreamers can end the Fade without tons of Lyrium, and affect the real world from there. Sounds like one. She converted populations by talking to them. Blood Magic mind control?

I think it'd be really interesting if the Chantry's messiah was a blood mage who was just fighting Tevinter and this huge religion grew up around her.

[Zenstrive]

I got some theory on my blog here:

http://social.biowar...79802/blog/1646

*shameless pluggers will plug*

[Blacklash93]

You think the red lyrium may have some sort of relation to blood?

There are a bunch of connections you could draw between lyrium and blood already, like the shared power to fuel magic, and seeing red lyrium that resembles blood veins makes it all the more suspicious.

[Pumpkinhead420]

-Reads.. Reads... Reads-

Lots of stuff to read, but it's all just so interesting!!! Especially the post above, Lyrium and Blood do share the same power right? (Spoiler) Like when you had to save the Arl's possessed son, you either needed a group of mages with lyrium, or just a blood mage with someone to sacrifice. Who knows!

I'm just picturing this web of how this all could connect:

You got Lyrium - Blood - Power / Andraste - Maker - Her ashes laced with lyrium / Darkspawn - Tevinter - Dwarves / Singing!!!! There's so much in this thread that it's a bit hard to peace together when looking between Chantry stories, Dwarven History, and Lyrium origins. My mind is already going crazy with mages using lyrium to enter the Fade, Chantry says that the first darkspawn came from the Fade so Darkspawn - Lyrium have a connection, but Darkspawn are not demons.. or are they? (I don't know) Or perhaps the spirit of the Maker himself was what possessed those mages and turning them into abominations which we call Darkspawn which means that the Maker has physically entered our world from the Fade in form of Darkspawn and that he slumbers far beneath the Deep roads bleeding out the veins of Lyrium which sprout from the chasms into the Deep roads and if tempered with will kill and cause madness and turn you into Darkspawn so you can fatten up women to become Broodmothers and take over the world with your army of frog-faced vampire zombies!!

...Or not.

Anyway, I enjoy this thread, keep it up my fellow Dragon Agers!

[Zenstrive]

Petroleum in deepest layers of the Earth is formed as gas and it is considered an old reserve. Petroleum above the gas layers gradually changing compositions from gas to oil and the top layers are considered younger reserve.

It is possible that Lyrium in deeper levels undergrond is red because they have been trapped in rocks for longer time.

I wonder what would Red Lyrium do for a mage, since a non-mage will be burnt out with its power. Can it infuse someone without intelligence with unlimited magical powers (sandal) ?