137 réponses à ce sujet

[wowpwnslol]

Bioware wanted to make warriors killing machines this time around because, as silly as it sounds, it's fits better for their Hawke character. Plus, your average gamer loves oversized swords and cleaving through everything instead of subtle and strategic combat mage employs. It's all part of the campaign to appeal to wider audience and as such melee (more specifically, the 2 hand weapon, heavy armor killing machine) gets the nod this time around.

[termokanden]

Sounds like Nightmare difficulty could use some tweaks. Spell immunity in itself is quite awful when it takes so many talent points to invest properly in a tree.

Bioware wanted to make warriors killing machines this time around

I don't get this at all. Warriors were killing machines in DAO. Some people may not realize this though. Mages were only ever best at killing masses of weak enemies. Rogues and warriors were faster against (non-mage) bosses, and 2h warriors pretty much just annihilated everything.

Modifié par termokanden, 18 mars 2011 - 01:39 .

[Shockwave Pulsar]

I think the mages are better balanced this time. In Origins mages were ridiculously overpowered and could crash hordes of enemies with the big elemental spells in seconds before they could even attack or your other party members reached them, and an arcane warrior could kill everything by himself.
They are still far the best for crowd control and quickly eliminating groups of smaller enemies, but they die too quickly IMO, sometimes one backstab from an assassin is enough, even at full health. Merrill is different though, she has higher HP, and with rock armor, maxed out primal tree and her Dalish specialization she's a beast and the closest you get to an arcane warrior in this game.

Modifié par Balthamoss, 18 mars 2011 - 01:46 .

[wowpwnslol]

Double immunity on standard mobs (on nightmare) is unacceptable. I was doing Qunari quest in Act 1 and they are immune to electricity AND fire... WTF? Did Bioware think chain lightning every 100 years on some mobs would be overpowered? I mean it's already impossible to cast when someone even looks at you, but standing around with a thumb up your ass and waiting for cone and winter's grasp to come off their outrageously long cooldowns is not fun at all.

....But of course warrior can solo all of that with a potion or two because nothing is immune to physical damage and dies to cleaving and AoE attacks.

[szsleepy]

I've done a playthrough with both the mage and a rogue. My mage was Spirit/Entropy with a smattering of Arcane and Force. My rogue was Assassin/Shadow/Dual Weild with Scoundrel for party support.

My mage had trouble dealing damage to even minor enemies. Normal enemies were a hassle and had to be wittled down. Bosses took ages to kill and were almost guaranteed to drain my healer's mana (Anders).

My rogue, on the other hand, was a damage dealing murder machine. Minor enemies would simply explode into clouds of blood and body parts. Normal enemies would be an instant kill with Twin Fangs or Assassinate. Bosses were a joke.

There is no question in my mind for even a second that BioWare addressed the concerns about mages in Origins being completely OP (they were, highest one-shot with Mana Clash was 3015) by nerfing them into oblivion in DA2.

I cannot tell you how disappointed this makes me.

[Stevie 402]

Mages need to more tactical is all. I have an all mage + fenris or varric. Anders- built for healing, buffs and defensive spells with panacea. Merrill using spirit and entropic+ her keeper abilities and my mage hawke using primal and elemental with the force mage spec. All have rock armor and death syphon. On hard and doing fine. Micro managing ( you cant just set the tactics and let them go on hard). Hawke uses gravatic ring or pull of the abyss, Merril uses sleep ( when the weaker enemies are pulled together) and I use lighting to fry em. Anders uses glyph of repulsion/ paralysis, haste, heal, panacea to heal us up etc.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Stevie 402 wrote...

Mages need to more tactical is all. I have an all mage + fenris or varric. Anders- built for healing, buffs and defensive spells with panacea. Merrill using spirit and entropic+ her keeper abilities and my mage hawke using primal and elemental with the force mage spec. All have rock armor and death syphon. On hard and doing fine. Micro managing ( you cant just set the tactics and let them go on hard). Hawke uses gravatic ring or pull of the abyss, Merril uses sleep ( when the weaker enemies are pulled together) and I use lighting to fry em. Anders uses glyph of repulsion/ paralysis, haste, heal, panacea to heal us up etc.

Try it on Nightmare.

[wowpwnslol]

Stevie 402 wrote...

Mages need to more tactical is all. I have an all mage + fenris or varric. Anders- built for healing, buffs and defensive spells with panacea. Merrill using spirit and entropic+ her keeper abilities and my mage hawke using primal and elemental with the force mage spec. All have rock armor and death syphon. On hard and doing fine. Micro managing ( you cant just set the tactics and let them go on hard). Hawke uses gravatic ring or pull of the abyss, Merril uses sleep ( when the weaker enemies are pulled together) and I use lighting to fry em. Anders uses glyph of repulsion/ paralysis, haste, heal, panacea to heal us up etc.

Now try it on nightmare with friendly fire and everything having outrageous resistance and immunities. You won't like it, I guarantee it.

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...


Try it on Nightmare.

Haha, didn't notice your post. Nightmare is a whole different ballgame. Any class is good on lower difficulties. The imbalances become apparent when the game is hard enough to require min maxing. That is where mage limitations are truly exposed.

Modifié par wowpwnslol, 18 mars 2011 - 02:42 .

[LPain]

I think this conversation would work better if people mention what difficulty they play as things change so much when you tune difficulty up or down. Just as a general note.

Whether or not you got friendly fire when you raise a firestorm on top of your team does count.
On my first playthrough (normal) I felt a bit foolish to use AoE skills when my tanks were already there as it worked against all the logic (played origins on nightmare and in general think friendly fire is the way to go as I cannot see the logic in selective spells - challenge question ). Yes. You can indeed wipe out the whole room with these skills with mage on normal without proper micro but try to do the same on nightmare,

[termokanden]

People are saying they are weak on nightmare.

That may be true, I haven't played on that difficulty. But other than that I don't think there is a problem.

[wowpwnslol]

Also on nightmare monsters have obscene amount of health. Even without friendly fire you'd be barely scratching them with your mage.

[Tomark]

Even on nightmare they aren't weak.

If you are able to properly choose the elements and your CC and CCC, they can extremely powerful.

It is however damn hard to pull off walking bombs without Force Mage.

[szsleepy]

Anyone that says that mages are not underpowered has not yet played the game as a rogue. Enough said. Seriously... try it and see for yourself how terribly gimped mages are in DA2. Rogues have AS MUCH CC and ten times more DPS than the mage could EVER have in this game.

[Tomark]

i am playing as a rogue right now, and i disagree. Rogues are basically very quick kills against most enemies, but it doesn't have the whole synergy a mage does.

[Clonedzero]

i had alot of fun with my mage. i was full elemental and most force mage with heal and arcane shield. it worked really well and i had no problems killing stuff.

then again im not someone who plays on nightmare, i find that more frustrating than fun, but with the amount of AoE stuff i was tossing around willy nilly i can see mages being a bit more difficult to play on nightmare.

[DKJaigen]

thats why i miss my Arcane warrior. while people said that they where op because of their extremely powerful defensive skills it was exactly their single target damage that allowed them to compete with the rogues and warriors for damage

[wowpwnslol]

DKJaigen wrote...

thats why i miss my Arcane warrior. while people said that they where op because of their extremely powerful defensive skills it was exactly their single target damage that allowed them to compete with the rogues and warriors for damage

AW in DAO did pathetic damage. Their main advantage was absolutely idiotic survivability, which was so overpowered, any idiot could right click through nightmare mode with AW. Damage wise - rogues and warriors did vastly superior damage to AW.

[Skemte]

wowpwnslol wrote...

Bioware wanted to make warriors killing machines this time around because, as silly as it sounds, it's fits better for their Hawke character. Plus, your average gamer loves oversized swords and cleaving through everything instead of subtle and strategic combat mage employs. It's all part of the campaign to appeal to wider audience and as such melee (more specifically, the 2 hand weapon, heavy armor killing machine) gets the nod this time around.

..  Uh no?  Hawke is a mage character in the trailer.. He uses a mage staff (the DLC you get int he beginning) and casts spells.. HE is also wearing the mage champions armor.

[Rieverre]

You know, this would all be more bearable if the mage were the only class able to intra-class combo. After all, CCC isn't a _new_ mechanic at all. It just didn't have a a fancy name tacked on in Origins. But you could still pop a talent that gave you increased/automatic critical and shatter those frozen/brittle enemies with warriors and rogues. The only thing they did with the mage in DA2 is take _that_ ability away. Crushing Prison. Stone Fist. Hell, anything with enough x Physical Force. Even then, the mage would be behind.

Actually, no, it _wouldn't_ be the only class able to intra-class combo even if it could somehow do that. Rogues get some very nice bonuses from exploiting Stun to hell and back, which they can also very reliably _cause_. That it's not one of the 3 CCC statuses doesn't really seem to matter that much if they get auto-criticals against stunned targets on autoattack. And with Cleave, Warriors can stand on their own very well against almost everything short of bosses.

Mages. Well, mages can't.

Modifié par Rieverre, 18 mars 2011 - 03:59 .

[szsleepy]

Rieverre wrote...



Mages. Well, mages can't.

EXACTLY.

[wowpwnslol]

Skemte wrote...


..  Uh no?  Hawke is a mage character in the trailer.. He uses a mage staff (the DLC you get int he beginning) and casts spells.. HE is also wearing the mage champions armor.

Really...? Well then it's a mystery why mages are so gimped. It seemed like a competent developer created warrior talent trees, while a drunken monkey created mage's. Then they decided to add absurd cooldowns on spells and sprinkle random immunities on monsters.

[agrocato]

In comparison to DAO, mages are underwhelming. In comparison to other classes, it feels about right. Great at crowd control, only class capable of showering a whole battlefield with damage at once. Firestorm sometimes wipes out the first wave of squishies all on its own.

But: Mages suck against tough bosses.

But: Mages are in serious trouble on their own. Without cross class combos and a tank to take the damage they are dead meat.

Play the final boss fight of ACT II with a mage and you will see the class at its worst. No back up and an incredible tough boss as enemy. It was the one part of this game where the mage class felt truely underpowered. I had to change the difficulty to normal and still needed running tactics to survive.

By the way: where has mana clash gone? I really miss wiping out enemy mages. Although it was admittedly the most overpowered spell in DAO.

[DKJaigen]

wowpwnslol wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

thats why i miss my Arcane warrior. while people said that they where op because of their extremely powerful defensive skills it was exactly their single target damage that allowed them to compete with the rogues and warriors for damage

AW in DAO did pathetic damage. Their main advantage was absolutely idiotic survivability, which was so overpowered, any idiot could right click through nightmare mode with AW. Damage wise - rogues and warriors did vastly superior damage to AW.

Build your Aw better next time. the only warriors and rogues that can compete with an AW where dual wield berserkers and cun assassins. they still didn't have the advantage of spells however.  its still obvious that single target damage is lacking

[Amioran]

wowpwnslol wrote...
Haha, didn't notice your post. Nightmare is a whole different ballgame. Any class is good on lower difficulties. The imbalances become apparent when the game is hard enough to require min maxing. That is where mage limitations are truly exposed.

I have no problems at all with my build on Nightmare.

The key to play a Mage is CCC. I prefer Staggered myself. Chain Reaction, Paralyzing Prison and Hemorrage are extremely powerful (especially Hemorage does an insane amount of damage and the AOE is small enough that you can direct it fine, and it doesn't consider armor at all).

Force Mage + Disoriented + WB is much trickier in nightmare. I much prefer Staggered (finisher) and Brittle (beginning).

Many says that Blood Mage is a waste, I consider it all the opposite in fact. Merril doesn't have not Sacrifice not Grave Robber and Hemorrage is stronger.

Modifié par Amioran, 18 mars 2011 - 06:51 .