137 réponses à ce sujet

[Amioran]

m14567 wrote...
If you focus on CCC as a mage you are in for a shock vs certain bosses who are either immune to CCC or proc on a very small percentage.  Mages can play on nightmare but they face far more obstacles than warriors do, pointy stick is always a good option, certain spells can be useless in certain situations.  At low levels as a mage, knockback effects combined with slow casting animations is not a trivial problem, you can get stun-locked to death if you are unlucky.

Hemorrage works with every boss in the game (apart one that has not blood), in full.

Then the problems are not bosses, or at last they really shouldn't. The real hard encounters are those with more than 3 elites at the same time. In this case CCC always works.

As for knockback use Rock Armor and raise a little health. You don't need Unshakeable. With a good robe and Rock Armor you never almost get stun-locked, if not in some circumstances, if you are a Blood Mage (having high Con) almost never. With about 60% armor and good Con the only enemies that can knock you back are lietenaunt and bosses. With more than 80% armor nothing can knock you back.

Modifié par Amioran, 18 mars 2011 - 07:33 .

[Jarys]

Actually, mages tend to do very well against single mobs (especially the solo duel at the end of A2), since they have plenty of single target stuff and don't need to worry about friendly fire in that case. If you invested into improved frost and primal abilities, he's cake (though it takes a ****ton of mana potions).

Not that mages don't need help in general, I decided to stop punishing myself and play on hard on my mage and nightmare on rogue (if you can't do it right, might as well just explode everything with firestorm and fireball ).

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Jarys wrote...

Actually, mages tend to do very well against single mobs (especially the solo duel at the end of A2), since they have plenty of single target stuff and don't need to worry about friendly fire in that case. If you invested into improved frost and primal abilities, he's cake (though it takes a ****ton of mana potions).

 ).

If by do very well you mean take tons of time, yeah, sure. And yeah, the mage sure will drink lots of mana potions in that battle. I sure hope he came prepared with a ton of them.  I just fought that fight. Or should I say I started the fight. After he began chugging pots undoing the damage I took a long time to do I quit the battle. It is not a hard battle at all but I refuse to spend three hours (assuming he ever stops chugging pots) in a tedious battle. He is quite easy to dodge when he charges.

Quite frankly I don't think Bioware playtested Nightmare with a mage.

Oh, that "plenty of single fire" stuff mostly does pathetic damage on elits and bosses. The duration of horror and prison is not very long at all on a NM higher level creature, which means very little damage.

My mage is level 18 with 50 in Magic and his damage is still pathetic on NM.

[Zan Mura]

m14567 wrote...

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

FedericoV wrote...

I have no stats but while I really don't understand that issue in a single player game based on managing a party, I really think that DA2 has reached a better balance between the 3 classes and that Mages while nerfed in comparison with DA:O are not underpowered. And I play a mage in DA2 while I've played a warrior in DA:O.

Show me some videos of a mage dominating Nightmare like warriors do.
Sword and Board
Two-handed Beserker

I agree with this, I haven't seen a single video of a mage doing anything close to this. I think mages are better balanced, warriors are not.  But I think this is by design, I mean to me it seems that DA 2 is heralded for visceral combat rather than precision controlling.  Realistically, no pause playing warriors probably has a far greater appeal to potential gamers than fiddling with AOE spells.

Omg, wrote a big reply and the stupid browser crashed and screwed it all up. Well to sum it all up again:

I don't think there's a problem with balance, as much as presentation and feeling of personal satisfaction. 2h seem mighty beasts of glory but really, the only thing they can do is waste trash mobs. Of course most of the mobs are trash, so that creates the illusion that 2h are some omnipotent gods who slaughter 90% of everything. In reality, they are all but useless against the tougher assassins, lieuts and absolutely useless against bosses. Rogues on the other hand are useless against the masses, but can basically solo anything below a boss in an instant, and in boss fights will easily end up doing 90% of the damage of the entire party. They only kill 10% of the mobs (at this point you should note these percentages were pulled out of an orifice, but they give you the general idea of what I'm after), but those mobs are so much more dangerous and epic that it earns rogues enough fame.

But mages? They never get their 15 minutes of fame. They don't slaughter the masses. They don't slaughter the bosses. In fact, on a personal level they lose on every aspect of killing when compared to the other 2 classes. Their only real role is just providing the other two with utility and support that helps THEM get their fame. They work exclusively on the background. Which is to say, they are very vital... but they don't really ever get to experience those cinematic moments of personal power and glory that warriors and rogues get.

So it's not really a balance issue. It's kinda like if you compared an important paper-pushing politician and a world class MMA champion fighter. The politician obviously has infinitely more influence and power than a simple fighter. But there's no doubt in anyone's mind which of the two is cooler, gets more cookie and is just a more interesting and cool guy anyway.

THIS, I believe, is what needs to be addressed. I mean sure, a STAGGER + Crushing Prison is a cool mediocre damage and guaranteed paralyze. But it's nothing compared to the insane damage produced by a STAGGER + Vendetta / Explosive Strikes or BRITTLE + Assassinate rogue. Likewise, DISORIENT + Stone Fist is pathetic compared to BRITTLE + Mighty Blow / Scythe. Basically, his support turns the other classes into pure murder. But the CCC's from other classes really only barely give the mage a temporary taste of the power those classes already have independently without any support.

Modifié par Zan Mura, 18 mars 2011 - 08:17 .

[Gokuthegrate]

Ive just finished the Deep Road in year one and Ive got to say that BW reduced the amount of damage that a mage can do compared to Orgins. It seems BW was focusing so much on melee battle to make Rouges and warriors as powerful as mages were in origins that mages got screwed. And the cooldowns are ridiculous. Having to wait 30 secs to heal is horrible and most spell effects only last about 5sec compared to a 20+sec cooldown.

[szsleepy]

Zan Mura wrote...
Omg, wrote a big reply and the stupid browser crashed and screwed it all up. Well to sum it all up again:

I don't think there's a problem with balance, as much as presentation and feeling of personal satisfaction. 2h seem mighty beasts of glory but really, the only thing they can do is waste trash mobs. Of course most of the mobs are trash, so that creates the illusion that 2h are some omnipotent gods who slaughter 90% of everything. In reality, they are all but useless against the tougher assassins, lieuts and absolutely useless against bosses. Rogues on the other hand are useless against the masses, but can basically solo anything below a boss in an instant, and in boss fights will easily end up doing 90% of the damage of the entire party. They only kill 10% of the mobs (at this point you should note these percentages were pulled out of an orifice, but they give you the general idea of what I'm after), but those mobs are so much more dangerous and epic that it earns rogues enough fame.

But mages? They never get their 15 minutes of fame. They don't slaughter the masses. They don't slaughter the bosses. In fact, on a personal level they lose on every aspect of killing when compared to the other 2 classes. Their only real role is just providing the other two with utility and support that helps THEM get their fame. They work exclusively on the background. Which is to say, they are very vital... but they don't really ever get to experience those cinematic moments of personal power and glory that warriors and rogues get.

So it's not really a balance issue. It's kinda like if you compared an important paper-pushing politician and a world class MMA champion fighter. The politician obviously has infinitely more influence and power than a simple fighter. But there's no doubt in anyone's mind which of the two is cooler, gets more cookie and is just a more interesting and cool guy anyway.

THIS, I believe, is what needs to be addressed. I mean sure, a STAGGER + Crushing Prison is a cool mediocre damage and guaranteed paralyze. But it's nothing compared to the insane damage produced by a STAGGER + Vendetta / Explosive Strikes or BRITTLE + Assassinate rogue. Likewise, DISORIENT + Stone Fist is pathetic compared to BRITTLE + Mighty Blow / Scythe. Basically, his support turns the other classes into pure murder. But the CCC's from other classes really only barely give the mage a temporary taste of the power those classes already have independently without any support.

^^^ This, this, and more this.

This is exactly what I would have said if I was smart enough to put the words together.

Modifié par szsleepy, 18 mars 2011 - 08:39 .

[szsleepy]

In fact, at this point, I'm convinced that there MUST be a bug in the code that causes mage damage to be absolutely pathetic. Perhaps the wrong coefficient for the Magic attribute or something... Who knows really... but after watching that S&B warrior video that someone posted earlier, you can see when Anders is staffing a mob he hits for MAYBE 11 points of damage, and that's with the Elemental Weapons buff bonus.

It's sad really. I sincerely hope that BioWare patches this **** to make Mages worth playing.

[mysticforce42]

Well, built correctly (lots of Magic and full Primal tree) Mages can do some rather impressive damage. So far in my playthroughs Merril holds the honor of the highest damage ever dealt - 5500+ on Orsino with a Chain Lightning.

Overall mages don't tend to do as much damage as other classes mostly because of limitations to spells and the fact that you spend a lot of time running away >.>

EDIT: 5500 is nothing to a rogue... but higher than what warriors can pull off, usually.

Modifié par mysticforce42, 18 mars 2011 - 09:35 .

[SovereignofDeath]

Yeah I think mages are very underpowered. Having beat the game once already as a mage and doing two new playthroughs as a warrior and mage again I have to say that the warrior outshines the mage in every way. Warriors consistently do far more damage than mages, their abilities are much better and the specializations are vastly superior to what mages have. I mean sure, mages can do some crazy damage under the right circumstances, but that's just it. It takes a certain situation for mages to do comparable damage to warriors which means it takes far more effort than warriors to do a ton of damage. While I realize that the "strength" of a class isn't based solely on the amount of dps it dishes out the fact that there is such a wide gap between the mages and warriors is pretty sad. The only thing that mages do that warriors can't do is heal, and i've never bothered to learn the healing spell for my PC nor did I spec in spirit healer.

And i'm basing my opinion off of my playthroughs which were done in normal mode.

[Altima Darkspells]

Zan Mura wrote...


I don't think there's a problem with balance, as much as presentation and feeling of personal satisfaction. 2h seem mighty beasts of glory but really, the only thing they can do is waste trash mobs. Of course most of the mobs are trash, so that creates the illusion that 2h are some omnipotent gods who slaughter 90% of everything.

This is how Mages operated in DAO, and everyone whined that they were completely overpowered.

[Tomark]

Mages in DA:O were overpowered because they were best in endurance , best in CC, best in dps, best in utility.

there also weren't stamina potion, which didn't help matters.

[Altima Darkspells]

Tomark wrote...

Mages in DA:O were overpowered because they were best in endurance , best in CC, best in dps, best in utility.

there also weren't stamina potion, which didn't help matters.

Only the Arcane Warrior made Mages ridiculously overpowered in Origins.  After that, they basically became kings of controlling and killing the many, many trash mobs and mages.  Warriors and rogues still put out more DPS than they did, and there was still the friendly fire situation, too.

In DA2, rogues and warriors can do just about everything mages can do, but better.  Mages have been religated to support/sustain/heal-bots.  Basically, Mages are the BG2 cleric of DA2.  There are situations where they're powerful and useful, but overall, you're better off using something else.

[szsleepy]

Tomark wrote...

Mages in DA:O were overpowered because they were best in endurance , best in CC, best in dps, best in utility.

there also weren't stamina potion, which didn't help matters.

Yeah, and now mages are none of those.  Rogues and Warriors fart more DPS than the mage can even under the best circumstances (i.e. CCCs), a S&B tank can live through disgusting amounts of damage and has so many stamina regen talents its stupid, rogues can CC more effectively and reliably with the Subterfuge talent tree (i.e. Miasmic Flask, Confusion, Exhausting Cloud, etc.) and still bring amazing utility with plenty of AOE DISORIENTs, group support in the Scoundrel tree and he can open doors and chests to boot.

Over and over again on these forums I see people claiming that mages are fine, l2p, use CCCs more, etc etc blah blah blah. 

I've done three playthroughs now, one for each class and the difference between warrior/rogue and mages is like black and white. 

The playtesters at BioWare that were responsible for feedback on the Mage class were wearing their pants on their heads and scooping drool off of their chins with dribble cups.

The sad state of affairs for mages disgusts me.

Modifié par szsleepy, 19 mars 2011 - 12:53 .

[Besetment]

I don't understand this argument when it comes to nightmare because no matter what class I play, I *have to* use cross class combos to drop enemy commanders, rogue types and mage types. Every class certainly has enough individual firepower to drop a single one of these targets on nightmare but then you need to wait for cooldowns. I find that the only way I can get through many fights is to stagger cooldowns and combo for the biggest effect vs least mana/stamina used.

I mostly don't use Cone of Cold/Deep Freeze unless Scythe is ready. One thing I can agree on is that if your SnS warrior or 2Her dies and you play a Mage, then your death is not far behind. For much of the early game you are an absolute stunlock magnet so you end up running away and poking with winter's grasp. This is not fun.

Modifié par Besetment, 19 mars 2011 - 01:06 .

[KAAurious]

I wouldn't say they are underpowered. They bring debuffing, CC and a wealth of other useful things. The one thing that is underwhelming about them though, is how the game works their threat. A rogue can deal ~2k damage in one huge burst and not pull aggro off a tank at the beginning of a fight. A mage can slap it with a hex and pull.

[CitizenSnips]

I wouldn't say mages are underpowered as much as I'd say warriors are overpowered. The Cleave + Claymore skillset is by far the best ability in the game. 100% damage increase for 15 seconds on a 20 second CD? Roughly a 75% passive damage increase. Name any mage ability even coming close to that. I can't really speak for rogues but I hear the Assassin tree can be pretty nasty. If something does need to be done, I'd rather see warriors or rogues toned down than mages brought up to their level.

The warrior strategy of pop cleave go in and wreck stuff always works. As a mage I have to worry about random mob immunity to my primary tree and/or staff, low auto attack damage, nailing low stagger uptimes on bosses and lieutenants, having to spec into force mage +100 fortitude or getting chain stunned to death, and being the most fragile class in the game. On the plus side the Primal and Blood trees are great(aside from the end of Act 1 and Primal for the end of Act 2) and the spirit healer spec is one of the best in the game.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

For those saying mages are not underpowered let's see some videos of them dominating NM like the videos of warriors we see doing so.

[mosin]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

For those saying mages are not underpowered let's see some videos of them dominating NM like the videos of warriors we see doing so.

You can't, because melee positioning > everything in this game.  You have to switch back to warriors and position them accordingly before they walz over your teammate and cleave through.

[Dethfield]

I like the mage class, but i kind of agree. Compared to the warrior and rogue, they seem to lack something. I played a mage as my first playthrough, and thought it was pretty good. Went and did a DW rogue, and holy **** the difference was immense. Im not completely thrilled about the warrior, but the rogue just fit me like a glove. Mages in DA2 dont seem nearly as threatening as the NPCs in the game claim they are.

[Chunkor]

I pretty much spammed Maker's Hammer as a mage. I had Fenris as my tank with that ability to Stagger opponents with his criticals. As soon as battles started, there would be 3-4 enemies staggered just by him attacking and I would use Maker's Hammer on them. This would deal around 2000 damage on even bosses.

Also, by endgame, my mage had ridiculous stats. I had over 500 mana, so Blood Magic was a complete waste and I was throwing spells left and right without ever running out of mana, the same amount of health as my tank, and pretty high magic. Didn't cheat, by the way. I had Rune of Valiance equipped and used a bunch of leveling potions. I also had Vitality from Spirit Healer which adds an automatic 10 con. I think I was 22 when I finished it.

I've also been meaning to ask this for a while. How exactly are you supposed to play as a Blood Mage? Throughout the first 2 acts, I was spending points in con in preparation to be a Blood Mage, but when I got around to that specialization, I respecced almost immediately. I found that I would turn on Blood Magic when I ran out of mana, then used it and once my health drained, I would then use One Foot In, but I would lose a ton of my health almost instantly, turn Blood Magic off, and have to heal myself normally. I thought Blood Magic was so much more of a hassle than a benefit. I just don't see this being helpful at all in any long, drawn out battle. I mean, by Act 3, even without the Rune of Valiance, I had more than enough mana to last long battles without having to use lyrium potions and then some.

[szsleepy]

Chunkor wrote...

I've also been meaning to ask this for a while. How exactly are you supposed to play as a Blood Mage? Throughout the first 2 acts, I was spending points in con in preparation to be a Blood Mage, but when I got around to that specialization, I respecced almost immediately. I found that I would turn on Blood Magic when I ran out of mana, then used it and once my health drained, I would then use One Foot In, but I would lose a ton of my health almost instantly, turn Blood Magic off, and have to heal myself normally. I thought Blood Magic was so much more of a hassle than a benefit. I just don't see this being helpful at all in any long, drawn out battle. I mean, by Act 3, even without the Rune of Valiance, I had more than enough mana to last long battles without having to use lyrium potions and then some.

This is just another example of how mages really were not created equal this time around.  For BM to be effective, the mage needs high CON (or requires the Spirit Healer con passive).  This means one of two things.  Either you sacrifice talent points simply to gain the SH passive, or you throw away a primary stat for CON and end up not being able to equip armor or weapons.