225 réponses à ce sujet

[Cajeb]

I only killed Zevran man. He's the only one. Should I expect to see Bethany/Carver/Anders in DA3? Or maybe Orsino?

[Dean_the_Young]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Uhh.. Jonah wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Cajeb wrote...
Why did Bioware decide to not include character deaths in the import data? Why do Leliana, Zevran, and Alistair all ressurrect themselves?

Zevran does not. Neither does Alistair or Nathaniel.

If we wish to bring someone back to life, it's because we wanted to.

Then why have the option of killing Leliana? 

Exactly.  I can overlook this, but you should know that all this handwaving and retconning is very annoying.  Also, I don't like this attitude that since it's your story, you can just do whatever you want.  That may be true, but if that's how you feel, don't trick us by making us think we have choices.  If you realized later on that you guys couldn't take all those variables into account, then own up to it.  I can understand being limited in time and resources far more than the idea that "We decided, so get over it."

This is why I have no real interest in anything that happens in the DA storyline anymore... I really don't care what happens because at any point, those "choices" will just end up negated for no apparent reason!  But hey, it's fine.  All I'm saying is that it would have been better to not get our hopes up that you were actually willing and/or able to make these kinds of alternate realities possible.

Edit:  Let me just add that this would be even less acceptable in the ME series.  If they just decided to bring back whoever they wanted to, regardless of Virmire and the Suicide Mission, that would be ridiculous!  Thankfully, there's only one game left and that story is over.  I hope the ME team doesn't pull this kind of stunt, but I'm not going to rule it out... 

You, ah, never had freedom of choice in the first place. Everything you could choose from, they dictated well in advance. Even your choices didn't matter: you were always going to end up in the same end-location with the same end-boss anyway.

At worst, you can just go with 'you thought you killed her, but didn't.' It's not an especially major retcon, nor does it change the entire story.

[xZitx]

Well, Bioware can't consider EVERY decision you made, that would be too much work and would consume too much time, too. I think they decide to go with what they think most people did, and that's it. I never killed Leliana, so that she was there was fine, and if you killed Zevran you did not get the quest, it is just a glitch. Alistair doesn't appear either, if you killed him. It is a big bugged, yes, and it is sad that you decisions didn't make it into the game, but, I understand they need to go on with the story. As long as I like it, it is no big deal to me.

[Icy Magebane]

@Dean:  I don't we're going to agree on the whole "does choice exist," argument... lol... I see it completely differently, so...

KAAurious wrote...

Clearly Bioware wasn't expecting you to go through DA with just a team of warriors. Or perhaps a playthrough where you tried to screw over as much **** as possible. They thought, "Well, we could design a bunch of responses for these sadistic bastards, but let's not end up writing ourselves into a wall!"

Well that's all well and good, but the simple fact is that I could not stand Leliana.  Also, how is it fair to "punish" people who play as evil characters?  Just don't give us those options and we wouldn't have a problem.  But I guess games should only cater to the majority of players, who apparently all love lying, hypocritical bards and saving the world due to purely altrusitic reasons.  Pfft... do you even know what "role playing" is?

I don't think it's too much to ask that if I cut somebody's head off, they don't get back up a few years later.

[KAAurious]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Well that's all well and good, but the simple fact is that I could not stand Leliana.  Also, how is it fair to "punish" people who play as evil characters?  Just don't give us those options and we wouldn't have a problem.  But I guess games should only cater to the majority of players, who apparently all love lying, hypocritical bards and saving the world due to purely altrusitic reasons.  Pfft... do you even know what "role playing" is?

I don't think it's too much to ask that if I cut somebody's head off, they don't get back up a few years later.

Oh I know. But the thing is, if they are going to have like... more than four Dragon Age games, it becomes more and more difficult to cater to the minority. I'm not saying it is right. I'm just saying that over the long term it would make the job that much difficult for them. Instead of Leliana would they use a random fill in character? Develop them from scratch? It limits their options in telling the story.

And trust me. I've done the minimalistic playthrough but I didn't import it on the grounds that I knew that I wouldn't have screwed up the world as much as I had hoped. It is what it is. 

[Cajeb]

If they want to plan long term then that is fine. They just shouldn't write themselves into these corners and screw over the player

[Taleroth]

KAAurious wrote...

 Instead of Leliana would they use a random fill in character?

I think this is the best option.  Zevran too.  Zevran's dead?  Meet Tim, the assassin!

[KAAurious]

Cajeb wrote...

If they want to plan long term then that is fine. They just shouldn't write themselves into these corners and screw over the player

And so DA2 happened and everyone is holding up pitchforks and torches. They caught themselves before they had to deal with DA4 with 900,000 variables regarding, "How many people did you screw over during the last three games."

[David Gaider]

Uhh.. Jonah wrote...
Then why have the option of killing Leliana? 

Because the option was there as a reaction to your choice to defile the Urn of Sacred Ashes... not as a "you will never have to deal with this character again". We're not saying what happened in that chamber never occurred... in fact, we're not saying anything yet, with regards to Leliana. You're free to make all the assumptions you like, of course, but if what you're insisting on is "I think X is dead so I should never see them again no matter what"... well, prepare to be disappointed.

[Taleroth]

KAAurious wrote...

Cajeb wrote...

If they want to plan long term then that is fine. They just shouldn't write themselves into these corners and screw over the player

And so DA2 happened and everyone is holding up pitchforks and torches. They caught themselves before they had to deal with DA4 with 900,000 variables regarding, "How many people did you screw over during the last three games."

I think a reasonable alternative is to accept that Zevran and Leliana have absolutely no reason to end up in Kirkwall, dead or alive.

People complained about this in Mass Effect 2.  It doesn't actually bother me, but it's a fair solution.  Small World phenomenon.  Why are you constantly meeting the same people in different parts of the world?  Cameos simply aren't necessary.

I get why they did it.  It was nice to see them again.  But it didn't make the game for me.

Modifié par Taleroth, 16 mars 2011 - 06:48 .

[Hope Slayer]

I'm another one who killed Zev and got him back in the Murder of Crows....could it be cause I played as a rogue?

[_000Darkstar]

David Gaider wrote...

Uhh.. Jonah wrote...
Then why have the option of killing Leliana? 

Because the option was there as a reaction to your choice to defile the Urn of Sacred Ashes... not as a "you will never have to deal with this character again". We're not saying what happened in that chamber never occurred... in fact, we're not saying anything yet, with regards to Leliana. You're free to make all the assumptions you like, of course, but if what you're insisting on is "I think X is dead so I should never see them again no matter what"... well, prepare to be disappointed.

Actually, that's exactly what dead means.

[Cajeb]

Dragon Age: Clone Saga?

[Statulos]

David Gaider wrote...

Cajeb wrote...
Well I killed Zevran in DA:O, imported, and he appeared during a Murder of Crows.

Are you telling me it is a glitch?

If Zevran died in DAO, you shouldn't be getting the Murder of Crows quest at all.

And what about Leliana? She shows up twice in the game so I guess by extension, if she died in the Sacred Ashes, she will not be there.

OK; irrelevant post. Mr. Gaider answered it a bit ago.

Modifié par Statulos, 16 mars 2011 - 06:51 .

[Sanguinerin]

There's no need to give us the option then to kill characters who might return as more important overall story figures. Leliana is apparently more vital than we realized, so in DAO, don't let us kill her. If she's present at the Ashes, have her leave the party declaring that she'll make the Warden pay for their sacrilegious actions, etc. I, personally, try not to kill off characters when I can help it just in case they make a future appearance. I'd rather keep them alive to see what they end up doing next. No matter for me though, as I reformatted my computer just before getting DAII and have no save files to import.

[KAAurious]

Exactly. Because you can run the risk of having weak cameos. Personally? I liked having Zevran running in during the final battle. Since I had him in the team agains the Archdemon, which means he managed to involve himself in two of the biggest struggles the world has seen. Whereas the Alistair cameo felt very weak. (Swooping is bad made me facepalm)

Modifié par KAAurious, 16 mars 2011 - 06:53 .

[RolandX9]

David Gaider wrote...

Uhh.. Jonah wrote...
Then why have the option of killing Leliana? 

Because the option was there as a reaction to your choice to defile the Urn of Sacred Ashes... not as a "you will never have to deal with this character again". We're not saying what happened in that chamber never occurred... in fact, we're not saying anything yet, with regards to Leliana. You're free to make all the assumptions you like, of course, but if what you're insisting on is "I think X is dead so I should never see them again no matter what"... well, prepare to be disappointed.

Uh-huh. Well, if you expect some of us to ever pre-order a Bioware game again (after ME 3, I'll cop to my addiction *g*) you'll have to prepare to be disappointed too.

Continuity matters to some of us. I'm just glad you had the decency to lose the ending cards, since they're clearly not canon.

[David Gaider]

_000Darkstar wrote...
Actually, that's exactly what dead means.

The operative part of that sentence being "I think they'e dead".

What happens isn't always going to be what you think should happen. It will, in fact, pretty much always work out the way we think it should-- and that includes bringing characters we like back. For those people who are just going to stamp their feet and insist that it should be what they want instead, I can guarantee that there's no amount of explanation that will convince them it isn't some offense to their idea of how our universe should work... so I'm not about to try here on these forums.

At any rate, I assume the original question was answered. I'll leave it at that.

[Taleroth]

KAAurious wrote...

I liked having Zevran running in during the final battle. 

Wait, what?

[KAAurious]

Taleroth wrote...

KAAurious wrote...

I liked having Zevran running in during the final battle. 

Wait, what?

If you do the Murder of Crows quest and let him go. He'll show up during the final battle. No fanfare or anything, but if you look carefully you'll see him and a few other faces showing up to smack Meredith around.

[Herr Uhl]

Taleroth wrote...

KAAurious wrote...

I liked having Zevran running in during the final battle. 

Wait, what?

If you save him he comes in at the end, post statues.

Granted, I've only done it once, and I had a threesome with him, so that might be required.

[Statulos]

David Gaider wrote...

_000Darkstar wrote...
Actually, that's exactly what dead means.

The operative part of that sentence being "I think they'e dead".

What happens isn't always going to be what you think should happen. It will, in fact, pretty much always work out the way we think it should-- and that includes bringing characters we like back. For those people who are just going to stamp their feet and insist that it should be what they want instead, I can guarantee that there's no amount of explanation that will convince them it isn't some offense to their idea of how our universe should work... so I'm not about to try here on these forums.

At any rate, I assume the original question was answered. I'll leave it at that.

As coherence is involved in this decission, you got to a good one. You can kill Leliana in an environment that is all but normal. Same goes for Wynne (who´s even more "less than normal" due to spirit issues). So if they come back when you thought you kill them... Well, blame it on the environment.

And just for the shake of whinning: don´t turn Shale into a flesh and blood dwarf lady! Her aim was cool but if she´s not stonny and cynic, something would be sadly lost.

Modifié par Statulos, 16 mars 2011 - 06:58 .

[Silentmode]

I remember a dev saying a while back that if they needed to canonize something to tell the story they want to they would do it. Which I'm fine with if it makes the story better.

[asindre]

Well the maker already talked to Leliana so maybe he ressurected her?

[Sanguinerin]

David, I don't think it's simply about "give me what I want" but more so about, "you gave me options, I chose this one, and now that choice is being undermined." I would prefer it if a choice actually stuck. If you do give me the option to kill someone, then perhaps you as the writer should have to live with the possibility of that decision because it was given to me in the first place. I never asked for the option to kill off characters that I didn't know before a game was released. It was given to me beforehand. That's why, if you honestly think that a character should make a strong comeback, try to turn what would be their death scenes into something else.

Like I suggested above, having Leliana declare some sort of vengeance at destroying the Ashes could be the alternative. In fact, it could even be a more dramatic alternative than simply killing her, and it could possibly give you some new route to consider for her when you bring her back. What is her motivation as a Seeker now?

I don't wish to sound like I'm telling you what to do. I just wanted to say that if you give people options and then take them back, and then sit here and tell them more or less to deal with it because you're doing what you want to do, well... It's a little unsettling.

Edit: I can understand that if you write a character at first with no intentions of using them again, have the option to kill them off, and then write something new and realize, "Hey, this character would fit perfectly here!" that it is desirable to bring them back. I really can understand that. Although what gets to me here the most is that "deal with it" attitude. If you never had Leliana written down as someone who could come into the plot this way, and then realized she was perfect for the role, that's a much better and sincere explanation than simply telling everyone how ultimately your decisions are the ones that count in the grand scheme. Personally, it's your game. I already know that. But I've come to believe that our decisions and opinions do actually matter to the developers. Responses like that just lessen that belief, even if it's not the intent.

Modifié par HallowedWarden, 16 mars 2011 - 07:13 .