225 réponses à ce sujet

[Chthonic]

Remember warcraft 1 and warcraft 2? This isn't new.

BioW did a great job in KotR of not having an Official version and a Bizzaro version of everything, but past a certain point it's impossible to code for every single little option.

Otherwise they would have to release an entire game with the OGB and one without (DA3:OGB and DA3.1:No OGB) and pretty much anything else that changed if they want to retain any feeling of continuity. So there are certain official choices that have to happen to make a sequal possible. End of story.

It's a video game, not an alternate reality. There are limits to what can be done. BioW is just great at stretching those limits as far as humanly possible with current tech.

[Icy Magebane]

asindre wrote...

Well the maker already talked to Leliana so maybe he ressurected her?

Is that sarcasm?  Leliana admits that she was lying... the Maker doesn't talk to anyone...

[Taleroth]

Icy Magebane wrote...

asindre wrote...

Well the maker already talked to Leliana so maybe he ressurected her?

Is that sarcasm?  Leliana admits that she was lying... the Maker doesn't talk to anyone...

I recall no such admission.  Leliana is simply a bit schizophrenic.

Modifié par Taleroth, 16 mars 2011 - 07:14 .

[asindre]

Icy Magebane wrote...
Is that sarcasm?  Leliana admits that she was lying... the Maker doesn't talk to anyone...

wow never heard that, sorry
I'll just... go now:whistle:
Edit: well that explains it, I never took her to the urn. 

Modifié par asindre, 16 mars 2011 - 07:17 .

[Statulos]

Taleroth wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

asindre wrote...

Well the maker already talked to Leliana so maybe he ressurected her?

Is that sarcasm?  Leliana admits that she was lying... the Maker doesn't talk to anyone...

I recall no such admission.  Leliana is simply a bit schizophrenic.

She admits it if you bring her to the Sacred Ashes temple when confronted with the spirit that talks about regrests. Only Morrigan refuses to talk.

True or not? Well, the Sacred Ashes quest as a whole is a blurry area...

[Icy Magebane]

asindre wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...
Is that sarcasm?  Leliana admits that she was lying... the Maker doesn't talk to anyone...

wow never heard that, sorry I'll just... go now:whistle:

Sorry, I wasn't trying to be rude...  :/

[Jkol1]

Re: Leliana

1) if you killed her while defiling sacred ashes, you are probably evil. Dramatic villains
have a horrible track record when it comes to actually verifying a heroes death.

2) You fought a rogue who claims divine inspiration over said divine's beloved's sacred ashes.
Said ashes have proven and miraculous healing powers. And you are surpassed her death may not be permanent!?

[Darkcyde]

Sorry about your duck.I imported a witch hunt hunt save and all my events worked out I played as a Cousland Male romanced and softened Morrigan took the ritual way out and put a hardened Alistar on the throne with Anora as queen killed Zeveran outright cause it seemed a stretch for that origin to let an assassin live let Avernus live had Nathaniel redeem his family name (contradiction I know) and went thru the mirror with Morrigan (a guy who lost so much family wouldn't want to live apart from his son). and it all was referenced correctly guess I was luckly

[Icy Magebane]

Jkol1 wrote...

Re: Leliana

1) if you killed her while defiling sacred ashes, you are probably evil. Dramatic villains
have a horrible track record when it comes to actually verifying a heroes death.

2) You fought a rogue who claims divine inspiration over said divine's beloved's sacred ashes.
Said ashes have proven and miraculous healing powers. And you are surpassed her death may not be permanent!?

People really need to stop defending this retcon by saying "she didn't really die."  We had deathblow animations in DA:O, remember?  Nobody but Deadpool can survive a decapitation.  Not even the immortals from Highlander can do that.

It's a retcon, pure and simple.  If I hate the idea but can accept it, I think those who actually like the idea should be able to as well.

Also, take Oghren with you next time you do the Urn quest... that place is built on a veritable mountain of Lyrium... there's no confirmation that the Maker had anything to do with enchanting the ashes.  Plus, none of the "spirits" were really the souls of dead humana and elves!  Those were all ash wraiths in disguise... grife... there was absolutely zero proof in DA:O that the Maker was real.  Sure, it's open to debate, but don't speak as though it is fact.

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 16 mars 2011 - 07:28 .

[MegaBadExample]

David Gaider wrote...

Uhh.. Jonah wrote...
Then why have the option of killing Leliana? 

Because the option was there as a reaction to your choice to defile the Urn of Sacred Ashes... not as a "you will never have to deal with this character again". We're not saying what happened in that chamber never occurred... in fact, we're not saying anything yet, with regards to Leliana. You're free to make all the assumptions you like, of course, but if what you're insisting on is "I think X is dead so I should never see them again no matter what"... well, prepare to be disappointed.

Great.
I killed Loghain, does that mean he's going to show up now?

[Brockololly]

I don't mind if someone getting resurrected is made a plot point if it adds to the plot and story. But if something like that is going to happen it needs to be explained in some way, otherwise death has no meaning in DA.

So if say, Leliana comes back after you very clearly decapitated her and looted her corpse at the Urn of Sacred Ashes, I'd hope that its explained how she survived that- did somebody sprinkle some of the Sacred Ashes on her or what? Is she some spirit abomination like Wynne? Its lame and kills player agency and the notion of your choices meaning anything when you do something like kill a character and that character turns up again acting like nothing is amiss. But if you go A Song of Ice and Fire type route and give resurrection a meaning, thats cool.

[Everwarden]

 Essentially, Gaider's response was: "We're going to do what we want. We gave you a choice, then decided you're a moron and made the wrong one, so we're fixing it for you. You're welcome."

Why give players a choice at all? Why not just have a completely linear, boring story-on-rails that disregards the entire concept of being able to shape the world in the first pla-

Oh, yeah, you did. Nevermind. 

[Luckywallace]

Worked fine for me, I killed Alistair (well, had him kill the Archdeamon), killed Zevran and (sort of accidently) killed Nathaniel. None of them showed up in my DA2 game.

I had Leliana live anyway but it is a bit odd that she can show, even if you kill her. I mean, it's possible to actually cut her head off at the Urn of Sacred Ashes... no real way she was "just knocked out" if that happened.

It is strange the Bioware didn't simply do a Wrex/Wreav move her and have some 'other' Sister Nightingale if you killed Leliana, she didn't have all that much dialogue anyway.

Modifié par Luckywallace, 16 mars 2011 - 08:04 .

[_Aine_]

Yeah, I am usually very supportive of positive change and the writer's freedom to create the story they wish, but there *are* some circumstances where I think a hand-wave does the previous *game* a disservice. Would be a much more respectable thing to NOT give a choice if it were to be taken away, or have a new "who-cares-about-them" placeholder character step in if in your previous game they have died for whatever reason. I can easily hand-wave certain things because of the circumstances but in cases where I had to battle and decapitated ( not my choice mind you, but still) a companion for example.... they should stay dead. Why import only *some* of my choices? I don't really care if my story is used or disregarded...that is FINE, but it shouldn't really be used as a big feature, when it only works for people with "typical" settings and circumstances. Using placeholder sorts of characters could have cleaned that up nicely I think. No harm, no foul.

That said, there was for the most part more *illusion* of choice than real consequential choice in this game. DA:O was better in giving the player the ability to shape their own world to a better degree. DA2 looks far better and has *numerous* things I liked better... but in terms of choice, consequence and varying outcomes, DA:O, for me, wins (so far anyway).

Perhaps that was not their intent all along however, so what they don't plan to offer, they never failed to provide. *shrugs* Hard to say.

Modifié par shantisands, 16 mars 2011 - 07:53 .

[someon7x]

Everwarden wrote...

 Essentially, Gaider's response was: "We're going to do what we want. We gave you a choice, then decided you're a moron and made the wrong one, so we're fixing it for you. You're welcome."

Why give players a choice at all? Why not just have a completely linear, boring story-on-rails that disregards the entire concept of being able to shape the world in the first pla-

Oh, yeah, you did. Nevermind. 

oh snap

[TyDurden13]

I really appreciate Gaider's clarifications - and it is comforting to know that at least the Zevran thing appears to be an import bug and not a retcon. Although there do seem to be a LOT more import bugs in DA than there were in ME. I hope they get around to fixing them.

My issue with this whole discussion is the narrowing of player agency. I mean, I'm not expecting to end up with a completely different gameplay experience based on choices - the game itself is not going to change, aside from some select few side missions./cameos. But in DAO and Awakening, our choices did have big payoffs when it came to the outcomes of the story (epilogues) and fates of our companions. In DA2, we can no longer affect the outcome but at least we can affect the fates of our companion (no small thing, even if I do think we should be able to affect the outcome more). But then tf the ability to affect the fates of our companions is also stripped away, then we're left with no agency in the narrative at all. Which would be a shame, IMO, not to mention that it kills any replay value.

[Jkol1]

Re: Icy Magebane's comments

I cannot properly quite you on my iPhone.

1) There is no standard as to what is survivable in the Dragon age universe. Referencing
Other fantasy works is irrelevant.

2) Nothing in the argument requires the maker to actually exist. The ashes have proven power.
If this is derived from lyrium, so much the better because her survival no longer hinges on the
acquisition of the ashes.

3) Ash wraiths disguised brings into play illusion magic. How do you know you actually decapitated
The real Lelliana?

[Clonedzero]

using deathblow animations as a defense is silly. my warrior preformed a deathblow animation on the archdemon then i had to do a SECOND deathblow in a cutscene. simple fact that the deathblows were simply bonus animations and not proving the fact anyone died. or what about the fact that one time alistair made the deathblow and he didn't die and my "second deathblow" was what killed me? proves deathblow animations are just fluff and not proving anything in the story.

and the whole "she's in a room of super magic healing ashes" kinda makes her coming back really believable.

also, continueing a series with as many options as DA:O had makes it really difficult for the writers to take into account EVERY option people make. i mean really? how many people killed leliana? i'd say a VERY small group of people killed her off, should that stop bioware from using an interesting character to continue the story simply to cater to the choices a small minority of players made?

to continue the story its completely expected for there to be some peoples choices to be overlooked, besides defiling the ashes was a silly choice in DA:O that made no sense. if you're anti-religious or don't believe in the ashes, why are you going to get them in the first place?

im not angry at all, from a writers perspective its really crippling to try and account for every variation of DA:O, so them overlooking the fact a small portion of their gamers killed off a potentially great character to continue the story with is perfectly understandable to me.

[Icy Magebane]

@Jkol1: Believe whatever you want then. You're obviously just going to defend your opinions regardless of whether they make sense or not. Referencing other fantasy settings invalidates my arguments? No. There is not one example of someone being resurrected from death in DA. If I mention examples from other stories, then it's just to show cases where resurrection is allowed or proven to work. DA never gives us an indication that it's possible, unless the writers decide that they feel like doing it.

You know what... they pulled this same stunt when Leandra died.  I was going to say that Wynne didn't provide an example of resurrection after decapitation, then I remembered that in DA2, a severed head and magic somehow allows a person's "soul" (or whatever) to remain intact....  whatever.  Maybe I'm actually wrong due to the fact that Leandra's death was written in that way.  So if Leliana is some kind of Frankenstein as well, then okay, fine. 

Gaider didn't say that though.  He said get over it and stop asking questions.

@ Clone:  There's nothing "silly" about a person who hates the Chantry defiling a sacred artifact.  You are just being judgemental and claiming that your opinions are more valid than those of others.... Grow up.

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 16 mars 2011 - 09:54 .

[Faridle]

Maybe Leliana is the DA universe answer for Jesus..... actually she kinda is. Both rambled on about the creator and such Leliana claimed that the Maker spoke to her, if it was true or not well that can be an issue. And we all know what happend to Jesus and he came back....and Leliana died in a place that one could count as holy....Divine intervention aint it a ****

Anyway it dosent matter for me I didnt kill her

[Sanguinerin]

Chthonic wrote...

Otherwise they would have to release an entire game with the OGB and one without (DA3:OGB and DA3.1:No OGB) and pretty much anything else that changed if they want to retain any feeling of continuity. So there are certain official choices that have to happen to make a sequal possible. End of story.

No, they wouldn't have to release two separate games for these choices. If the old god child was, in fact, so central to the story of the world then we wouldn't have a choice over the existence of it. We would simply always have an occasion where the child was conceived. At least, I'm lead to believe that our choices do matter. You have no idea what role the child will play, if it will play a role at all. You have no idea how insignificant or how significant it will be. Just because you choose it or not doesn't mean that it must have a game separate from the other path.

We have certain official choices. The Archdemon dies. How it dies is our choice. The war between the mages and templars erupts. How it happens is our choice. There are definitely fixed points in the universe, but how we get to those points are reflected by our choices.

That being said, we shouldn't be given the choice to kill a character if they're just going to be brought back, with good reason. Justice or Wynne, being magically afflicted in some way, have good reasons. Leliana doesn't, except perhaps the suggestion of lyrium in the mountain. Personally, I love seeing her and I'm glad she has a new role to play, but I also understand how anyone who killed her can feel like the developers just undermined their choices.

We keep hearing how there is no canon story. There are fixed points, and we get to choose differently between those points in a lot of instances. In this case, however, you could say that the developers just made Leliana being alive canon, unless saying she was made a fixed point makes any kind of sense at all.

I loved Leliana and will love to see her again in more installments. But seeing how others killed her and now have to live with her being alive, I can see how they might feel shafted. I also see a lot of insincerity in the response, "this is our story, we'll bring back who we want to." I feel like this issue could be responded to much better, such as "we really thought Leliana of all people fit this the best, and if we can make a sequel, we're hoping you'll see why!" or something else that leads me to believe that there is an actual good reason for it, and not just because "this is what we want, deal with it."

[elferin91]

isn't that thing with zevran a bug with origins save? speaking of which, david, do you know when there will be a patch for saves, especially for WH, 'cuz i'd really like to start DA2 all over again(with the same save yes, lol). i don't like my warden breaking up with leliana because of morrigan xD

also, as i'm to understand there is canon version of origins, will we ever know the complete canon story then? (i like having choices and all but i also like to know what writers had in mind and how it should have been)

[Everwarden]

someon7x wrote...

Everwarden wrote...

 Essentially, Gaider's response was: "We're going to do what we want. We gave you a choice, then decided you're a moron and made the wrong one, so we're fixing it for you. You're welcome."

Why give players a choice at all? Why not just have a completely linear, boring story-on-rails that disregards the entire concept of being able to shape the world in the first pla-

Oh, yeah, you did. Nevermind. 

oh snap

Yep. I went there.

[Clonedzero]

Icy Magebane wrote...

@Jkol1: Believe whatever you want then. You're obviously just going to defend your opinions regardless of whether they make sense or not. Referencing other fantasy settings invalidates my arguments? No. There is not one example of someone being resurrected from death in DA. If I mention examples from other stories, then it's just to show cases where resurrection is allowed or proven to work. DA never gives us an indication that it's possible, unless the writers decide that they feel like doing it.

You know what... they pulled this same stunt when Leandra died.  I was going to say that Wynne didn't provide an example of resurrection after decapitation, then I remembered that in DA2, a severed head and magic somehow allows a person's "soul" (or whatever) to remain intact....  whatever.  Maybe I'm actually wrong due to the fact that Leandra's death was written in that way.  So if Leliana is some kind of Frankenstein as well, then okay, fine. 

Gaider didn't say that though.  He said get over it and stop asking questions.

@ Clone:  There's nothing "silly" about a person who hates the Chantry defiling a sacred artifact.  You are just being judgemental and claiming that your opinions are more valid than those of others.... Grow up.

way to cherry pick one sentance out of my entire statement and use it to insult me. you seem like the one that needs to grow up.

also, it doesnt make sense for a person who doesnt believe in the chantry and hates it, to go out of there way to go on a big dangerous quest to find a sacred artifact of the chantry simply to defile it. doesnt make sense in anyway at all.

but you're clearly ignoring the main point i was making. which is that you are using a GAMEPLAY ANIMATION (which in all likely hood probably didnt trigger for everyone), as an excuse on how it'd be impossible for her to live through the fight.when i clearly give obvious in game examples in DA:O how deathblow animations arent meant to have any story significance but you're ignoring that fact and using her being decapitated as your major defense on how she can't be alive.

but go ahead, call me childish again, really helps your argument.

[StingingVelvet]

I personally like to play with the default settings and assume that is Bioware's "canonical" storyline. Often in games where you make a lot of choices the sequels kind of assume a certain canon outcome to the previous story, like the Fallout games. One outcome of Fallout was the destruction of the Followers of the Apocalypse, but there they are in Fallout: New Vegas anyway.