225 réponses à ce sujet

[Vandicus]

Icy Magebane wrote...

lol that people keep assuming the Maker is real... give me a break. No proof of that at all.

lol that people keep on assuming that the Maker isn't real... give me a break. No proof at all that he isn't.

Stuff like the Ashes don't just make themselves. In all probability, the Maker exists, as even the most powerful of mages couldn't do that without help. I personally believe the Maker is an extremely powerful spirit(a spirit much like the one that helped Wynne) but to assert that he/she/it doesn't exist when there is an actual super powerful mysterious artifact and a powerful mage or prophetess attributed to him is a bit of a stretch.

[hakwea]

I have a similar feeling with anders. My Awakening save was imported and in the epilogue of that I was told anders left for a few months to give a lecture to some mages then stayed at the keep with the wardens. Then start playing DA2 and find out he is some brat that suddenly has a reverse opinion about the wardens.

Its why bioware only gives the illusion of choices in their games. If they want to make the story go one way they will no matter what choices you made.

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I am pretty sure Leliana can be decapitated at the Urn....Ok, maybe you can argue that on the way out, the Warden accidently let some of the ashes fall on her neck and head, which miraculously re-attached them together and made her alive again and...here she is as a Seeker.

Yea, let's not take the "what you see doesn't have to be what we think should happen" thing to far. It would be better to say that killing Leliana is just not a canon choice, deal with it.

I'm only confused about the bolded part of what you said - maybe we have different definitions of "canon"?

I define canon as something that is always and must be true.  As in, the AD died - that's canon.

Leliana living or dying is a pure option (well, seemed to be) which would not be canon for all players.

Or are you saying that canon = Leliana is not dead?

Not sure if it's just how you phrased that or how you used canon which is confusing me . . .

[Dean_the_Young]

Everwarden wrote...

NKKKK wrote...

Yeah, perfect attitude to take in a game that's on a slippery slope.

Yeah, that's kinda how I felt too. I don't really care about Leliana being brought back, it's just the "**** you, valued customer!" attitude Gaider retorted with.

What can you say? It comes naturally in response to the 'entitled ******' attitude who doesn't like it when things they thought were settled to their satisfaction, weren't. You aren't exactly holding the most charitble tone yourself, thought to make it clear I'm not lumping you in the prior category.

I certainly didn't mind my Courier picking back up after two gunshot wounds to the head in Fallout: Vegas. Compared to that implausibility, a companion not being as dead as I thought after leaving her behind in a room which has long-stored magical ultra-healing pixie dust that could heal just about anything is a tad more plausible basis for a 'she didn't really die' twist, especially considering the number of times she'd dropped on the battlefield and still gotten up before then.

Is it a plot shenanigan? Certainly. Is it a particularly eggregious, unrealistic one? Not particularly, especially when the explanation can be as easy as 'the magic temple re-constitutes the magic guardian who could give her the last touches of ash which escaped defilement.' . The plot device to justify it is already in the same room.

[NRO TYN]

David Gaider wrote...

Cajeb wrote...
Why did Bioware decide to not include character deaths in the import data? Why do Leliana, Zevran, and Alistair all ressurrect themselves?

Zevran does not. Neither does Alistair or Nathaniel.

If we wish to bring someone back to life, it's because we wanted to.

Dude the samething i told you in your last thread now Mr.Gaider telling you, so stop posting this kinda thread

[Everwarden]

What can you say? It comes naturally in response to the 'entitled ******' attitude who doesn't like it when things they thought were settled to their satisfaction, weren't. You aren't exactly holding the most charitble tone yourself, thought to make it clear I'm not lumping you in the prior category.

My tone is in reply. I hadn't posted in the thread prior to Gaider flipping his fans off, I'm pretty sure. 

Modifié par Everwarden, 17 mars 2011 - 12:56 .

[Dean_the_Young]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I am pretty sure Leliana can be decapitated at the Urn....Ok, maybe you can argue that on the way out, the Warden accidently let some of the ashes fall on her neck and head, which miraculously re-attached them together and made her alive again and...here she is as a Seeker.

Decapitation in Origins was always a little finicky. As I recall, there were other characters who, after having the decapitation animation in a fight, would immediately start talking to you as the fight ended. (Loghain's fan-girl in particular.)

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
I'm only confused about the bolded part of what you said - maybe we have different definitions of "canon"?

I define canon as something that is always and must be true.  As in, the AD died - that's canon.

Leliana living or dying is a pure option (well, seemed to be) which would not be canon for all players.

Or are you saying that canon = Leliana is not dead?

Not sure if it's just how you phrased that or how you used canon which is confusing me . . .

I was poking fun. Gaide's comment, as I understood it, said that what you think happened (decapitating Leliana) doesn't make it true.

I say, instead of saying that, just say that she is canonically alive.

[Icy Magebane]

Vandicus wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

lol that people keep assuming the Maker is real... give me a break. No proof of that at all.

lol that people keep on assuming that the Maker isn't real... give me a break. No proof at all that he isn't.

Stuff like the Ashes don't just make themselves. In all probability, the Maker exists, as even the most powerful of mages couldn't do that without help. I personally believe the Maker is an extremely powerful spirit(a spirit much like the one that helped Wynne) but to assert that he/she/it doesn't exist when there is an actual super powerful mysterious artifact and a powerful mage or prophetess attributed to him is a bit of a stretch.

I didn't say the Maker isn't real.  I'm saying that it's a bad way to prove an argument, considering the Maker's existance is not a fact.  You simply cannot say "well, the Maker saved her," until you know that the Maker is real.  Bioware has never confirmed that.

I think it's best to leave personal bias towards religion out of a conversation regarding fictional religions.  You're jumping to a lot of conclusions by saying that mages can't do certain things without help.  How do you know that?  Magic isn't even defined yet, nor is the Fade, nor are spirits.  Everything we know is based on conjecture that comes from the theories of in-game mages and philosophers (still keeping within the context of the game itself... obviously Bioware has these answers, but as I said, they have not shared them with us).

Andraste lived hundreds of years ago.  The Chantry's power all hinges on the Maker existing.  How can you say that there is any proof of their claims, when even Justice said that spirits don't know if the Maker is real or not?


EDIT:  I also want to add that regardless of decapitation, Leliana's death left little room for interpretation.  This isn't like Morrigan getting stabbed and falling into some other dimension where you're 95% sure she didn't really die.  She was dead on the floor of the temple, and there was more than enough time to realize whether or not it was a confirmed kill (which my Warden would obviously have done).

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 17 mars 2011 - 12:59 .

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
I'm only confused about the bolded part of what you said - maybe we have different definitions of "canon"?

I define canon as something that is always and must be true.  As in, the AD died - that's canon.

Leliana living or dying is a pure option (well, seemed to be) which would not be canon for all players.

Or are you saying that canon = Leliana is not dead?

Not sure if it's just how you phrased that or how you used canon which is confusing me . . .

I was poking fun. Gaide's comment, as I understood it, said that what you think happened (decapitating Leliana) doesn't make it true.

I say, instead of saying that, just say that she is canonically alive.

I figured as much.  I think the way you phrased it just threw me a bit.

[Vandicus]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
I'm only confused about the bolded part of what you said - maybe we have different definitions of "canon"?

I define canon as something that is always and must be true.  As in, the AD died - that's canon.

Leliana living or dying is a pure option (well, seemed to be) which would not be canon for all players.

Or are you saying that canon = Leliana is not dead?

Not sure if it's just how you phrased that or how you used canon which is confusing me . . .

I was poking fun. Gaide's comment, as I understood it, said that what you think happened (decapitating Leliana) doesn't make it true.

I say, instead of saying that, just say that she is canonically alive.

Those who point out Anders's possible death epilogue in Awakening make a fair point(though I suppose even that can be stretched to Justice taking over his dead body, and gradually fusing with his memories), but using a game animation to claim an error is . Enemies that have special death animations can begin talking to you right after the fight, and the Archdemon can be "killed" by someone besides the Warden if one goes by death animations alone. The death animations were random and had nothing to do with the plot.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I was poking fun. I don't really care if Leliana living is canonized. Just the way Gaider phrased it sounded weird.

[Icy Magebane]

Regardless of whether or not a deathblow happened, the reason that is relevant is because it's a combat situation that left no room for error. The Warden would have known if Leliana was dead or not. You think he or she would be stupid enough to not check and see if the master spy and assassin he just put down was really dead? Come on...

edited... bad phrasing...

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 17 mars 2011 - 01:02 .

[Everwarden]

Vandicus wrote...
 The death animations were random and had nothing to do with the plot.

Entirely true, but besides the point. The point is that Leliana was dead. The codex said she died, if I recall correctly. And now she's not dead.

There are, as I said, entirely reasonable explanations for that. What is not an entirely reasonable explanation is Gaider telling his fans in a Darth Vader voice that he's altering the deal, and to pray that he doesn't alter it any further. 

[Tamyn]

It's always the women I want to kill in some play-throughs that get bullet-proofed no matter what my PC does. (Leliana, Morrigan, Isabela.) Bleh.

[TJPags]

Vandicus wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
I'm only confused about the bolded part of what you said - maybe we have different definitions of "canon"?

I define canon as something that is always and must be true.  As in, the AD died - that's canon.

Leliana living or dying is a pure option (well, seemed to be) which would not be canon for all players.

Or are you saying that canon = Leliana is not dead?

Not sure if it's just how you phrased that or how you used canon which is confusing me . . .

I was poking fun. Gaide's comment, as I understood it, said that what you think happened (decapitating Leliana) doesn't make it true.

I say, instead of saying that, just say that she is canonically alive.

Those who point out Anders's possible death epilogue in Awakening make a fair point(though I suppose even that can be stretched to Justice taking over his dead body, and gradually fusing with his memories), but using a game animation to claim an error is . Enemies that have special death animations can begin talking to you right after the fight, and the Archdemon can be "killed" by someone besides the Warden if one goes by death animations alone. The death animations were random and had nothing to do with the plot.

Not sure why me and KoP were quoted there, but:

I don't care about a death animation not being accurate - as in, I struck a killing blow on Zev in DAO when he ambushed me, but then he's not really dead, or Sten struck the killing blow on the AD, but my Warden actually killed it.

I do care about a character I'm spcifically intending to kill - and allowed to kill - and do kill - no longer being dead.  I think it's absurd to have given us the choice to kill Leli, only to be told that those who killed her didn't actually kill her.  I'm petty sure our Wardens all could tell the difference between killing someone and not killing someone - they did enough of it.

I don't even mind that Leli lives - I never took the option to kill her.  But why give us the option to do something, then pretend it didn't happen.  What, she was only mostly dead?  Or was her head rolling on the floor sparated from her body just a flesh wound?

[Everwarden]

Tamyn wrote...

It's always the women I want to kill in some play-throughs that get bullet-proofed no matter what my PC does. (Leliana, Morrigan, Isabela.) Bleh.

Oh, don't worry. Isabela is going to die of the darkspawn taint soon enough. That's what she gets for drinking too much and having very low standards in men. 

[Icy Magebane]

@TJPags: Exactly. The option should never have been given in the first place.

[underhill1990]

zombie zevran appeared in my game too. made me sad.

[Merci357]

TJPags wrote...

I don't even mind that Leli lives - I never took the option to kill her.  But why give us the option to do something, then pretend it didn't happen.  What, she was only mostly dead?  Or was her head rolling on the floor sparated from her body just a flesh wound?

My take on this is (just regarding Leliana), they do collect player data. I suppose they do know how many killed Leliana. And if only a fraction did so (which would be my guess) - I don't think they should go to any length to not include a quite popular DA:O character because just a few killed her. Would it be better if you imported a save game where Leli is dead, that she never appears and is replaced? Sure. But this game has for sure several other roadworks that would need more attention then a minor detail that affects a minor fraction of players.

[Everwarden]

Merci357 wrote...
 Sure. But this game has for sure several other roadworks that would need more attention then a minor detail that affects a minor fraction of players.

Oh, true that. 

[NKKKK]

Everwarden wrote...

 I am going to gaze deep into the future now with my mystical powers:

David Gaider of the Future: "We felt it was more important to have Bethany return as a boinking option in Dragon Age 3 than to leave her corpse in the Deep Roads. I mean, come on people, you were the ones who complained about her not being a romance option in DA2. This is your fault."

"You see, Alistair didn't actually chop Loghain's head off. It just looked like he did. Loghain actually used a body double, which is why he's back and complaining about Orlais again. We wouldn't do this unless we wanted to, that's something you have to understand."

"This is the last I'll say on the subject of the Dark Ritual: No, it isn't canon. Just because the hero of Dragon Age 4 is the Old God Baby doesn't mean that it's canon. You still made a choice in Origins. We are just choosing to tell you you're wrong, and if you want to make bad choices you should upload a different save. Thanks for playing."

 

This and one of the posts before this is why you're the hero of this thread.

[Everwarden]

NKKKK wrote...

This and one of the posts before this is why you're the hero of this thread.

*Bow* I try. I try. Was tempted to do more Darth Gaider future gazing, but I'd rather not beg to be banned. 

[Sanguinerin]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I certainly didn't mind my Courier picking back up after two gunshot wounds to the head in Fallout: Vegas. Compared to that implausibility, a companion not being as dead as I thought after leaving her behind in a room which has long-stored magical ultra-healing pixie dust that could heal just about anything is a tad more plausible basis for a 'she didn't really die' twist, especially considering the number of times she'd dropped on the battlefield and still gotten up before then.

If her new life in Dragon Age II were given an explanation, Dean, then I believe that less people would be upset in the first place. By explanation, I don't mean being told, "it's our world, deal with it."

If someone made the Seeker plot of DAII and realized that for their future plans that Leliana fits the role just ever so perfectly, then come up with a reason for why she's around again, or tell us that she would be better off alive in order to make a plot end up so much better. I'm sure most reasonable people would at least be understanding to that situation. I have no issue with bringing back a dead character to push a plot in a different way. I have an issue with being told that our decisions matter when they advertise a game, and being told "deal with it" when our choices are ignored. Surely, there are a million better responses or ways of responding that could take into account possible feelings of being cheated or undermined.

I mean, many of these complaints are coming from fans who are genuinely upset because BioWare creates games that they love. Surely, that concern shouldn't just be dismissed in such a...less than sincere fashion.

[Sanguinerin]

@Icy Magebane and TJPags,
This is one of the things that I've been mentioning. It's entirely possible that when Leliana was made, the developers didn't think to give her this other role. Now that DAII is finished and they're likely thinking of the future (and given the fact that she is now alive no matter what), she must have a larger role in the story now. At least, I assume that if she wasn't more central in the future story, it wouldn't be a problem to leave her dead in the first place.

I can understand that the option was there before but now Leliana fits into a new plot or role better than another character might, and that's why she's brought back. What I don't understand is how we've been responded to because of the concerns about this choice some players made being undermined because the writers can do as they please. It's completely unnecessary in the manner in which it was delivered, and that's my only real problem in all of this.