225 réponses à ce sujet

[NKKKK]

My "attitude" which is evidently not agreeing with everyone who has a chip on their shoulder?

"Deal with it" is not disagreeing. There are many more diplomatic ways that you could have handled this thread, considering this game is on thin ice already, hell you could have simply said something along the likes of "I disagree, but there will be an explanation for this at one point." or something along those lines, or maybe even "Hey, I know this is a plot hole, but I cant comment on the matter right now."

Or better yet, not post at all.

Despite what you think, Mr. lead writer, were not here to enslave you and we don't want you to agree with us on everything. So stop thinking that were demanding your servitude (or at the very least ignore the trolls). But the hostile tone you have is neither helping you or your company at this moment.

Yes, you really should get back to work, god forbid this thread causes a future plot hole in the expansion pack.

[Everwarden]

Kroitz wrote...

I can imagine that you hear certain voices.

A good try, sir.

Is there any reason to antagonize a dev beyond your hurt ego?

My ego is fine. And I see every reason to call someone on it if they're being a jerk to their customers. 

Modifié par Everwarden, 17 mars 2011 - 03:21 .

[Suron]

David Gaider wrote...

_000Darkstar wrote...
Actually, that's exactly what dead means.

The operative part of that sentence being "I think they'e dead".

What happens isn't always going to be what you think should happen. It will, in fact, pretty much always work out the way we think it should-- and that includes bringing characters we like back. For those people who are just going to stamp their feet and insist that it should be what they want instead, I can guarantee that there's no amount of explanation that will convince them it isn't some offense to their idea of how our universe should work... so I'm not about to try here on these forums.

At any rate, I assume the original question was answered. I'll leave it at that.

if you're going to have a character be clear-cut dead (like Leliana/Wynne at Sacred Ashes or Zevran) and you allow us to import our saves..then you cannot possibly have the gall to defend just arbitrarily bringing them back because "you want them"

if you're going to do such things..fine..but don't allow us to import saves then.  If you're going to go against things we did in those saves just because you "want to" then save us from it all together.  Seriously, it's arrogant. And quite franky, if I murdered Leliana and you ignore that because you wanted too, it's idiotic.

[Kroitz]

Everwarden wrote...

My ego is fine. And I see every reason to call someone on it if they're being a jerk to their customers. 

How so?

Jerk = Does not share my thoughts?

[hakwea]

David Gaider wrote...
Not all choices are going to have the same effect, and just because some don't carry forward the way you think they should doesn't mean that none of them do. You're free to exaggerate to make your point, that's up to you-- I completely get that you're unhappy (in general), but playing the injured party and claiming my attitude is bad like I'm some clerk at a retail counter there to take your personal order is hardly convincing anyone. Sorry.

Then why offer choices? If you are just going to invalidate and re-write choices made, why offer people choices? If you can't modifiy your story to fit the choices you get, then don't write that story. You don't write a choose your own adeventure book then make half the options irrelevant and pointless by having all those choices not matter.

This is the burden that you, as bioware, put upon yourself by always advertising and drilling into our, as customers, heads that choices are important and they matter. That they change the flow and dynamic of the story. Choices in one year of DA2 carry on to the next year and offer a different experince then if we made other choices.

Yet with what you've said here you erase all that and are saying that you hvae a set in stone story. And no matter what choices we give you it will always be the ones we want that created for. Instead of creating a story that is actually designed around all the choices you give.

This isn't a new problem either. Bioware has had it for years in most of the games they've made with multiple endings. The only pick one ending and ignore the rest in sequels. I remember feeling this same wtf feeling when playing one of the expansions for NWN2 that had a different life for my character. It is just 100x magnified because now with the DA line of products you always emphasize the choices and how they change the story and allow you greater interactivity with the story.

Take your pencil, a piece of paper, and write the story with all the choices accounted for. It isn't hard to create new characters that could have filled the role perfectly, instead of ignore the choices you so often flaunt.

[Everwarden]

Kroitz wrote...

How so?

Jerk = Does not share my thoughts?

No. I've made it clear that simply disagreeing with me is not what I take issue with. You can't have actually been reading the thread if you're asserting that that is what I'm saying, so I'd suggest catching up a bit. 

[White_Buffalo94]

RazorrX wrote...

there is a 'quasi' cannon version. I wish they would tell us what it is, but for sure there are certain things that absolutely happened.

1) Leliana is ALWAYS alive
2) Anders is ALWAYS alive
3) Justice is ALWAYS alive (long enough to bond with Anders)

I think the OGB is NOT cannon as David has stated over and over and over and over that it is not. (which makes me happy)

Leliana was brought back to life by the Maker
Justice bonding with Anders could revive him, Justice cannot "technically" die
OGB may not be canon as we see it, for example, it may not be our Warden's child. But I can almost guarantee they will put the character into a future BW game and if you did the Dark Ritual, then that position will be filled by your Warden's child

[hakwea]

White_Buffalo94 wrote...
Leliana was brought back to life by the Maker
Justice bonding with Anders could revive him, Justice cannot "technically" die
OGB may not be canon as we see it, for example, it may not be our Warden's child. But I can almost guarantee they will put the character into a future BW game and if you did the Dark Ritual, then that position will be filled by your Warden's child

My ending for anders and justice made no hints at such. My ending for anders said he stayed with the wardens for the rest of his life and only left for 2 months to speak about the architect to the council of mages. My ending for justice was that his body dropped dead and was never seen from again.

Odd then that anders has to escape the wardens and run from them within a year of lothering. The blight was only active for a year, which doesn't give much time for the events of Awakening or his speech to the mages. Also odd that no other wardens ever noticed the change in anders when justice bonded with him or ever saw justice come "out"? Because no one ever saw or heard from him again.

Justice can be written off as "open ended" but they should create such endings if they are going to just invalidate them on a whim. There are no choices if they just ignore the choices they give us.

[Everwarden]

hakwea wrote...

Odd then that anders has to escape the wardens and run from them within a year of lothering. The blight was only active for a year, which doesn't give much time for the events of Awakening or his speech to the mages. Also odd that no other wardens ever noticed the change in anders when justice bonded with him or ever saw justice come "out"? Because no one ever saw or heard from him again.

I think that Anders being in DA2 is actually inconsistent with every epilogue you -can- get, amusingly enough. 

Not that I really mind, I like having Anders back. Or would, if they had gotten the voice actor who did Anders to come back. 

[Rm80]

If you are one of them who got the random decapitating animation when "killing" Leliana I here present some explanations that might help:

number 1: It was not Leliana that was present when you defiled the ashes, it was Loliana.
Loliana is Lelianas evil twin sister (good job killing her and making the world a safer place)

explanation 2: Leliana had her head under her armor and she was wearing her "Leliana pumpkin hat" (a pumpkin looking exactly like Lelianas face)

explantion 3: ahhh... I can go on forever, anyway try to relax a nodge its not really the end of the world

[QwibQwib]

@capt. Obvious, don't make me throw you at the horde of Alistair's fan club =.=

[QwibQwib]

Edit: throw you to the horde****

[Everwarden]

Rm80 wrote...

If you are one of them who got the random decapitating animation when "killing" Leliana I here present some explanations that might help:

number 1: It was not Leliana that was present when you defiled the ashes, it was Loliana.
Loliana is Lelianas evil twin sister (good job killing her and making the world a safer place)

explanation 2: Leliana had her head under her armor and she was wearing her "Leliana pumpkin hat" (a pumpkin looking exactly like Lelianas face)

explantion 3: ahhh... I can go on forever, anyway try to relax a nodge its not really the end of the world

I lol'd.

[Jitawa]

I was assuming some of this was in part due to some sort of import error. When I met Alistair in DA2, and in references before - everyone talks about him being king. He actually married Anora and ruled jointly, but she's never referenced. He talks about Loghain getting what he deserved/punished, but he left my party to marry Anora when I refused to let Loghain get executed/made him a warden (he specifically says that becoming a warden isn't a punishment). Loghain dies killing the archdemon, it's hard to imagine Alistair seeing someone he hated getting the glory of slaying the archdemon as a punishment. Perhaps that's just me.

He talks about things being better at the circle in Ferelden. All the mages there were killed in my game.

On a similar subject of not dead quite like that, Anders will talk about two mages helping end the blight. There was only one mage in my imported save though, Wynne died at the tower without ever joining me. Even if you make the case that she somehow survived and went on to kill darkspawn somewhere, there was only one mage with me so that doesn't make sense. Could Anders have been mistaken? Unlikely, he met the warden.

There was a provision to meet Nathaniel in DA2. He survived in my awakenings, but the quest wasn't present. Zevran (according to the strategy guide) is less flirtatious if he was in a relationship with the warden. I ended with a maxed relationship with him, got an earring, and a letter from him in awakenings. He was not reserved at all in DA2, instead, Leliana (who I never even spoke to) seemed to act as if the warden had been in a relationship with her.

Leliana dying is another thing. I'd had to agree that it seems disingenuous to offer the ability to kill people then have them not be dead whilst simultaneously championing choice in games.

However.. seriously, considering how botched the import process was (or saving the flags in the previous game perhaps), I'm surprised any choices at all came over. It's nigh-random as near as I can tell.

[Everwarden]

Jitawa wrote...

Leliana dying is another thing. I'd had to agree that it seems disingenuous to offer the ability to kill people then have them not be dead whilst simultaneously championing choice in games.

Yep. Didn't Bioware bash jrpgs (not that I like jrpgs) for having no choices?

However.. seriously, considering how botched the import process was (or saving the flags in the previous game perhaps), I'm surprised any choices at all came over. It's nigh-random as near as I can tell.

Not even just the importing process. I romanced Merrill and only once flirted with Isabela, and Verric still credited Isabela as the one Hawke ran off with in the end. Not only did they completely fail to make importing work (or matter), they don't get the flags right for the two or three choices you can make within DA2 itself. 

[Merced652]

Not all choices have the same effect? Technically true i suppose, but from where i'm sitting any effect a precious few of them have is pathetically marginalized by your epic story, Gaider.

Modifié par Merced652, 17 mars 2011 - 04:36 .

[Cajeb]

Wow. I can accept the characters being brought back for story purposes or if there is a glitch. But really? You are going to be condescending and patronize your customers? And you think that is okay because you are not a sales rep behind a counter? Wow....just wtf. I cannot believe I'm reading this ****. I know you guys probably don't care about alienating your fans since the hardcores Bioware fans are probably only a drop in the bucket...but still...wow

[Hardin4188]

NKKKK wrote...

Hardin4188 wrote...

I killed Alistair and made Anora the Queen in my imported playthrough, but Aveline mentions a king of Ferelden, not a queen. I guess Anora could have died by then, but I always figured she would be queen longer than that.

Thats most likely a glitch.

That is what I am hoping, but if that's the case it still shows how careless Bioware was when developing the game. I know I'm not the only one who killed Alistair.

[Everwarden]

Cajeb wrote...
Wow. I can accept the characters being brought back for story purposes or if there is a glitch. But really? You are going to be condescending and patronize your customers? And you think that is okay because you are not a sales rep behind a counter?

Sadly, he can be as rude as he wants because I already bought the game. <_<

Wow....just wtf. I cannot believe I'm reading this ****.

I can. One pattern I've noticed is that when any gaming company does anything wrong, the default reaction is to blame the customer. 

[Cajeb]

All he had to do was say, "Yeah we brought her back for story purposes. It looks sketch now, but hopefully you'll love it when everything's said and done."

But pretty much every post has been blaming the player

[MortalEngines]

Cajeb wrote...

All he had to do was say, "Yeah we brought her back for story purposes. It looks sketch now, but hopefully you'll love it when everything's said and done."

But pretty much every post has been blaming the player

I'm not the BDF or anything but seriously, you guys are overreacting to the extreme. Firstly, if you read carefully, he's never said he's blaming anyone, just that if they the writers bring back a character, they do it for a reason and that just because YOU think the character is dead doesn't mean they are.

To be honest I understand his annoyance, how would you like it if someone was trying to tell you how to do your job after working it for many many years? David Gaider is a senior writer and worked on many, many games including BG, how about trying to be understanding than acting like everything must be catered to your every need?

His job is to create a epic, fufilling story for us to enjoy, if that means retaconning then so be it. He didn't act rude in the slightest and just stood up for the decision the team made, if anything you're being rude frankly.

Modifié par MortalEngines, 17 mars 2011 - 05:16 .

[Cajeb]

My problem isn't his retconning. My problem is him flexing his muscles and saying STFU to the fans. I am fine with Leliana coming back if there is an explanation for it. However, it's not cool for him to keep talking about how us fans are crucifying ourselves on our crosses etc.

[Thiefy]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

just wondering, if you never recruit leliana does she still show up?

.....anyone?

[Icy Magebane]

QwibQwib wrote...

IMO....writers want to tell a story, you choose the outcome, but doesn't mean they will always follow up all of your choices, is their story...Just be happy that you can choose different choices...not all the games have that....c'mon, aren't you curious? Why would you kill such amazing characters

You really need to stop saying that.  Not everybody loves Alistair and Leliana.  Get that through your head.

Now, again, if they wanted to bring characters back that I don't like, that's wonderful.  That is not why I have a problem with this decision.  All I ask is that they do not give us options that seem important and then say we did it wrong and negate those decisions!  I killed off characters in ME2 specifically to see what the results would be in ME3.  I played the game differently each time just to see how that would effect certain races, like the Quarians and Geth, in the final game.  Is it really too much to ask that they don't waste my time by setting up a lot of potentially important storylines and then negating whatever option we chose in favor of a canon storyline?

Well, I'd better not take this further.  Wouldn't want to be seen as a "whiner with a chip on my shoulder."  Geez...  If I wanted a static storyline I'd be playing JRPGs.  Oh wait, I just did... it's called DA2.  Whatever flaws that game may have, at the very least, Bioware stopped giving us branching paths.  By making the game more linear, they did us a service.  Now we won't have this issue for the sequel.  Unless, of course... Fenris or whoever was supposed to live... lol.   But I doubt that.  They set it up pretty carefully this time.

@ Thief of Hearts:  Yes, she does.

Edit:  Actually there's something else infuriating about that post.  Why in the hell would I want choices that don't make any difference?  That doesn't even make sense... If they can't deliver the goods, then just tell me the story and don't trick me by thinking my input matters.

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 17 mars 2011 - 05:22 .