225 réponses à ce sujet

[MortalEngines]

Cajeb wrote...

My problem isn't his retconning. My problem is him flexing his muscles and saying STFU to the fans. I am fine with Leliana coming back if there is an explanation for it. However, it's not cool for him to keep talking about how us fans are crucifying ourselves on our crosses etc.

Where did he say STFU? Please, quote and enlighten me. When people are saying stuff like this: 

NKKKK wrote...
Actually, he doesn't really care about the Leliana import, since he himself didnt kill her. If even said he might accept any wild plot points that you might pull out of your dark place in order to explain, its your attitude that youve had in this thread thats the problem. 

And acting as if he doesn't care about a story and character he's spent alot of his time creating and refining I can see why he would be mad. How would you like it if you spent hours and hours on something and had to made a risky but what you see as essential decision only for people to say you don't give a toss for a series that you've invested heavily in.

I understand why people might be miffed about Leliana, I really do, but I don't see that as justification to slander someone's hard work and the choices that they've made for the overall sake of the story.

Modifié par MortalEngines, 17 mars 2011 - 05:21 .

[Everwarden]

MortalEngines wrote...
 they do it for a reason and that just because YOU think the character is dead doesn't mean they are.

You're missing the point. The issue isn't retconning, it's that he insults the people who were concerned about it. Essentially calling them crybabies for questioning a choice they were allowed to make in the first place being (apparently) stripped. 

To be honest I understand his annoyance, how would you like it if someone was trying to tell you how to do your job after working it for many many years? David Gaider is a senior writer and worked on many, many games including BG, how about trying to be understanding than acting like everything must be catered to your every need?

Again, missing the point. It wouldn't have been an issue (at least to the people you're addressing right now) if he'd made the exact same point, but phrased it in a reasonable way that didn't accuse customers of stamping their feet and crying over not getting the choices they want. 

His job is to create a epic, fufill story for us to enjoy, if that means retaconning then so be it.

I agree completely.

He didn't act rude in the slightly and just stood up for the decision the team made, if anything you're being rude frankly.

Not buying this, sorry. 

[Cajeb]

Do you know what hyperbole is? I'm guessing you don't. Do you also want me to show you the post where he flexes his muscles or did you already watch the video?

Most of the hate in this topic came after he initially responded. He had a chance to handle this in a mature and professional way but instead he decided to throw subtle barbs at his fanbase and customers.

You are also forgetting that we are random fans on a forum. He is a paid professional. If he does not like criticism he does not have to post. However, when he does post it reflects on him and his company. If he chooses to post in an unprofessional manner it casts him in a negative light. He is a professional. The fan is not. It is like comparing the actions of an adult and a child.

[MortalEngines]

Everwarden wrote...
You're missing the point. The issue isn't retconning, it's that he insults the people who were concerned about it. Essentially calling them crybabies for questioning a choice they were allowed to make in the first place being (apparently) stripped.

Please, if you're gonna make statements like this, QUOTE IT. I haven't seen him saying anything like this.

Again, missing the point. It wouldn't have been an issue (at least to the people you're addressing right now) if he'd made the exact same point, but phrased it in a reasonable way that didn't accuse customers of stamping their feet and crying over not getting the choices they want. 

Again, I haven't seen him state anything in a horrible manner, maybe I'm missing something?

Not buying this, sorry. 

And I'm not buying the claim that he told everyone to STFU as someone put it.

Cajeb wrote...

Do you know what hyperbole is? I'm guessing you don't. Do you also want me to show you the post where he flexes his muscles or did you already watch the video?

Are you seriously just reinstating the point that I originally said about your guys overexagerrating? Why thank you good sir! Continue with your nonsensical hyperbole if it makes you happy.

Most of the hate in this topic came after he initially responded. He had a chance to handle this in a mature and professional way but instead he decided to throw subtle barbs at his fanbase and customers.

David Gaider wrote...
Zevran does not. Neither does Alistair or Nathaniel.

If we wish to bring someone back to life, it's because we wanted to.

All I see here is him stating the facts. If they brought someone back to life, it's because they wanted to, what's the issue?

You are also forgetting that we are random fans on a forum. He is a paid professional. If he does not like criticism he does not have to post. However, when he does post it reflects on him and his company. If he chooses to post in an unprofessional manner it casts him in a negative light. He is a professional. The fan is not. It is like comparing the actions of an adult and a child.

Firstly, he wasn't responding to critism, he was just laying down the facts. They brought someone back because they thought it was best, end of. The reason there was an argument in the first place is because people started throwing around statements about how he "Obviously doesn't care".

[Everwarden]

MortalEngines wrote...

I understand why people might be miffed about Leliana, I really do, but I don't see that as justification to slander someone's hard work and the choices that they've made for the overall sake of the story.

This isn't about Leliana. Again. This is about David Gaider answering a simple, polite question in a way that wasn't polite or professional. 

If you missed the post in question, I'll do the work of digging it back up for you:

The operative part of that sentence being "I think they'e dead".

What happens isn't always going to be what you think should happen. It will, in fact, pretty much always work out the waywe think it should-- and that includes bringing characters we like back. For those people who are just going to stamp their feet and insist that it should be what they want instead, I can guarantee that there's no amount of explanation that will convince them it isn't some offense to their idea of how our universe should work... so I'm not about to try here on these forums.

At any rate, I assume the original question was answered. I'll leave it at that.

The bolded bit struck me as rude and unnecessary given the context. Later in the thread Gaider feels the need to insist that a polite attitude is something unnecessary for someone not in a customer service position behind a counter.

[Cajeb]

Don't forget the part about the wounded cross or whatever

[Everwarden]

 If you're too lazy to flip back two pages, I'll even quote the second bit:

Not all choices are going to have the same effect, and just because some don't carry forward the way you think they should doesn't mean that none of them do. You're free to exaggerate to make your point, that's up to you-- I completely get that you're unhappy (in general), but playing the injured party and claiming my attitude is bad like I'm some clerk at a retail counter there to take your personal order is hardly convincing anyone. Sorry.

[Cajeb]

David Gaider wrote...

Everwarden wrote...
He could have explained how easily she could survive, being in close proximity to the miracle McGuffin at the time of her death.

And, if we do offer an explanation, it's not going to be here on these forums just because someone demands to know RIGHT NOW. When we do, I assume you will feel free to fall on your "injured customer" cross, then.

His usage of the word if is a power play. He creates a fake demand. We don't necessarily want to know exactly how it happened right now. We just wanna know if it was intentional/if it's gonna work out. Then he patronizes everyone with the cross comment. The quotes don't help either

[Cajeb]

David Gaider wrote...

NKKKK wrote...
Actually, he doesn't really care about the Leliana import, since he himself didnt kill her. If even said he might accept any wild plot points that you might pull out of your dark place in order to explain, its your attitude that youve had in this thread thats the problem.

My "attitude" which is evidently not agreeing with everyone who has a chip on their shoulder?

Time for me to go back to work and not get drawn into these arguments, I think. Sorry to cause such a stir.

Attitude in quotes. Chip on the shoulder comment doesn't help either

[MortalEngines]

Everwarden wrote...

MortalEngines wrote...

I understand why people might be miffed about Leliana, I really do, but I don't see that as justification to slander someone's hard work and the choices that they've made for the overall sake of the story.

This isn't about Leliana. Again. This is about David Gaider answering a simple, polite question in a way that wasn't polite or professional. 

If you missed the post in question, I'll do the work of digging it back up for you:

The operative part of that sentence being "I think they'e dead".

What happens isn't always going to be what you think should happen. It will, in fact, pretty much always work out the waywe think it should-- and that includes bringing characters we like back. For those people who are just going to stamp their feet and insist that it should be what they want instead, I can guarantee that there's no amount of explanation that will convince them it isn't some offense to their idea of how our universe should work... so I'm not about to try here on these forums.

At any rate, I assume the original question was answered. I'll leave it at that.

The bolded bit struck me as rude and unnecessary given the context. Later in the thread Gaider feels the need to insist that a polite attitude is something unnecessary for someone not in a customer service position behind a counter.

Maybe badly worded, but I can see where is he coming from. Having read over this thread I've seen people (not you), moaning about how their choices are being underminned and such. David already explained that if they retacon it's for a reason, yet they're still complaining as if just because they keep moaning something will change. The writers have already decided this was for the best.

That's basically what david is saying, basically, stamping their feet and making demands because they think that they have the RIGHT over everyone else to have the game canter to them isn't going to get them anywhere so stop complaining with irrational arguements. 

And I think he's right, most people commenting here don't want to comprimise, what's he meant to do?

[Cajeb]

^Wrong. He said if they retconned it's because they wanted to. He didn't say it is for a reason. That is also what I was referring to with him flexing his muscles

And you ask what we want him to do? Be professional.

[MortalEngines]

Cajeb wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

NKKKK wrote...
Actually, he doesn't really care about the Leliana import, since he himself didnt kill her. If even said he might accept any wild plot points that you might pull out of your dark place in order to explain, its your attitude that youve had in this thread thats the problem.

My "attitude" which is evidently not agreeing with everyone who has a chip on their shoulder?

Time for me to go back to work and not get drawn into these arguments, I think. Sorry to cause such a stir.

Attitude in quotes. Chip on the shoulder comment doesn't help either

 Have you seriously not noticed how RUDE the other person was? Basically saying that David, even though this is his job and what he does for a living, DOESN'T CARE about the series he created and has been putting hard work into. NKKKKK is acting like they have a chip on the shoulder and as if they are better than David because they believe they are right because THEY JUST ARE.

Cajeb wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
And, if we do offer an explanation, it's not going to be here on these forums just because someone demands to know RIGHT NOW. When we do, I assume you will feel free to fall on your "injured customer" cross, then. 

His usage of the word if is a power play. He creates a fake demand. We don't necessarily want to know exactly how it happened right now. We just wanna know if it was intentional/if it's gonna work out. Then he patronizes everyone with the cross comment. The quotes don't help either

So everyone yelling RETACON and DON'T PULL BACK CHOICES, isn't making demands? His comment was aimed at Everwarden, he answered the question on the first page, people wouldn't stop complaining. He said they have an explaination and their own reasons for doing things. People continue to complain, how is that not making demands? He already said that they retaconned because they wanted to, so it is intentional. And he wasn't referring to everyone.

Cajeb wrote...

^Wrong. He said if they retconned it's because they wanted to. He didn't say it is for a reason. That is also what I was referring to with him flexing his muscles

And you ask what we want him to do? Be professional.

Hmm a devoted writing team that's job revolves around making the plot make sense...wouldn't create a reason for this? They "wanted to" can be interpreted in many ways, to me it seems like "It's what we thought would work best for the story"

Modifié par MortalEngines, 17 mars 2011 - 05:48 .

[Everwarden]

MortalEngines wrote...

And I think he's right, most people commenting here don't want to comprimise, what's he meant to do?

Honestly, if there is a reason for Leliana to come back even if she's killed: Nothing. Just don't reply. Telling people to shut up and take their Bioware medicine (not literally, this is me using that evil hyperbole again) only made him look like a jerk who doesn't care about his customers. His attitude in the following posts didn't help much, either*.

*Though I did mock what he said pretty relentlessly (and got +10 internets for it), so I can certainly understand how he feels. I just don't think the original statement was warranted, or that his following attitude was professional. 

[Everwarden]

MortalEngines wrote...
Hmm a devoted writing team that's job revolves around making the plot make sense...wouldn't create a reason for this? They "wanted to" can be interpreted in many ways, to me it seems like "It's what we thought would work best for the story"

Well that devoted writing team didn't do a very good job making the third act of DA2 make any sense. Just sayin'.

[MortalEngines]

Everwarden wrote...
Honestly, if there is a reason for Leliana to come back even if she's killed: Nothing. Just don't reply. Telling people to shut up and take their Bioware medicine (not literally, this is me using that evil hyperbole again) only made him look like a jerk who doesn't care about his customers. His attitude in the following posts didn't help much, either*.

*Though I did mock what he said pretty relentlessly (and got +10 internets for it), so I can certainly understand how he feels. I just don't think the original statement was warranted, or that his following attitude was professional. 

I believe David actually commented to correct people who were claiming that Zevran, Alistair and Nathaniel were retaconned when they weren't. He added that IF they put back any characters it would because they wanted to. It was a harmless statement, then people attacked him for it.

*I guess I understand where all the parties are coming from in this, but really, it's slightly hypocritical to criticize him of mocking people when people were mocking him.

Everwarden wrote...

MortalEngines wrote...
Hmm a devoted writing team that's job revolves around making the plot make sense...wouldn't create a reason for this? They "wanted to" can be interpreted in many ways, to me it seems like "It's what we thought would work best for the story"

Well that devoted writing team didn't do a very good job making the third act of DA2 make any sense. Just sayin'.

Firstly, that's a matter of opinion. Secondly, that could be down to game design as much as it  could be writing (sometimes game design forces the plot to follow a certain path. And thirdly, the plot made sense, it was the character development that was a bit shady, something I chalk down to limited development time than anything else.

Modifié par MortalEngines, 17 mars 2011 - 05:53 .

[Everwarden]

MortalEngines wrote...

*I guess I understand where all the parties are coming from in this, but really, it's slightly hypocritical to criticize him of mocking people when people were mocking him.

The tones were completely different though. He might have (well, almost certainly did, considering the venom in his posts) taken personal offense to what I said, but I was being playfully sarcastic when I said:

David Gaider of the Future: "We felt it was more important to have Bethany return as a boinking option in Dragon Age 3 than to leave her corpse in the Deep Roads. I mean, come on people, you were the ones who complained about her not being a romance option in DA2. This is your fault."

"You see, Alistair didn't actually chop Loghain's head off. It just looked like he did. Loghain actually used a body double, which is why he's back and complaining about Orlais again. We wouldn't do this unless we wanted to, that's something you have to understand."

"This is the last I'll say on the subject of the Dark Ritual: No, it isn't canon. Just because the hero of Dragon Age 4 is the Old God Baby doesn't mean that it's canon. You still made a choice in Origins. We are just choosing to tell you you're wrong, and if you want to make bad choices you should upload a different save. Thanks for playing."

Now that wasn't polite of me by any means, but I think the tongue-in-cheek tone is fairly clear. The reply was (using hyperbole again, onnoes!) Gaider essentially breathing fire and telling his customers that he doesn't owe them civility or a good attitude, because he's not a retail clerk. 

[stuboy52]

personally i never noticed that dead character cameos could happen then again i always try to save as many characters as possible in bioware games because kill characters only makes you have less game content such as quests and conversations

plus if the writers choose to bring some back its because they are to important to the story or make it more interesting to just let them die so it might seem unrealistic but to keep the story sensible they have assume some characters survive as they dont expect players the kill everyone off.

[David Gaider]

Everwarden wrote...
The tones were completely different though. He might have (well, almost certainly did, considering the venom in his posts) taken personal offense to what I said, but I was being playfully sarcastic when I said:

Ah, yes. So it's quite all right to read my posts in the tone of Darth Vader, or applying any other tone that you imagine I have, but your posts should be considered harmless and playful?

Do tell.

[mesmerizedish]

David Gaider wrote...

Everwarden wrote...
The tones were completely different though. He might have (well, almost certainly did, considering the venom in his posts) taken personal offense to what I said, but I was being playfully sarcastic when I said:

Ah, yes. So it's quite all right to read my posts in the tone of Darth Vader, or applying any other tone that you imagine I have, but your posts should be considered harmless and playful?

Do tell.

If it makes you feel better, I love you.

[MortalEngines]

Everwarden wrote...
Now that wasn't polite of me by any means, but I think the tongue-in-cheek tone is fairly clear. The reply was (using hyperbole again, onnoes!) Gaider essentially breathing fire and telling his customers that he doesn't owe them civility or a good attitude, because he's not a retail clerk. 

Wait, so he's not allowed to be human? People sometimes misunderstand your tone.

To be honest, while your 'playful' sacrasm maybe very visible to you, tone is hard to convey on the internet, for all you know he's saying it with equal sacrasm. I could see how he could take your comment as a personal attack and how you can take his as telling people to STFU. To me, David seemed to be speaking in a rather off-handed manner and wasn't really serious or truly angry.

David Gaider wrote...
Ah, yes. So it's quite all right to read my posts in the tone of Darth Vader, or applying any other tone that you imagine I have, but your posts should be considered harmless and playful?

Do tell.

Yes, exactly David, it's not fair to judge you one way and then judge himself by another.

Modifié par MortalEngines, 17 mars 2011 - 06:11 .

[Valus]

Sigh, anyone else getting nostalgic for post-Awakenings Oghren rants?

[MortalEngines]

Valus wrote...

Sigh, anyone else getting nostalgic for post-Awakenings Oghren rants?

Very *sigh*

[NKKKK]

David Gaider wrote...

Everwarden wrote...
The tones were completely different though. He might have (well, almost certainly did, considering the venom in his posts) taken personal offense to what I said, but I was being playfully sarcastic when I said:

Ah, yes. So it's quite all right to read my posts in the tone of Darth Vader, or applying any other tone that you imagine I have, but your posts should be considered harmless and playful?

Do tell.

Oh so you do listen, aren't we all touched?

[Everwarden]

David Gaider wrote...

Ah, yes. So it's quite all right to read my posts in the tone of Darth Vader, or applying any other tone that you imagine I have, but your posts should be considered harmless and playful?

Do tell.

...when the word 'boinking' is used in the post, yes. 

[NKKKK]

Also, we're getting off topic, let's get back on mates.