44 réponses à ce sujet

[3l1ad]

kevL: That seems to have done the trick! Thank you so much and thanks to I_Raps as well. You've both been very helpful.

[kevL]

nifty ( from me n the Dragon )

[Basher of Glory]

Playing constantly the good guy, I don't like this quest at all. Nevertheless, to please Neeshka, I do it.

 

To rob some trinkets is one thing, but to slaughter the guards another.

 

I tried anything to sneak around them, but whatever I do - like entire party invisible - once I open the first door the fight starts.

In one case I managed to sneak up to the kitchen, but then the game drags you into that conversation and the peaceful way is thwarted.

 

Question: Has someone ever managed to get upstairs WITH the key of Vania AND the bottle of water WITHOUT butchering the guards?

[Tchos]

Worst thief quest ever made, I say.  My answer to your question is no.  I tried several times, but there was no way around my good-aligned party killing the guards who were rightfully defending the man's property from our home invasion.  And yes, when I snuck in with Neeska leaving the rest of the party waiting at the entrance, that kitchen trigger that made no allowance for stealth checks teleported my city watchman character into full view and blew my cover.  After playing mods with triggers that accounted for stealth and seeing for myself what can be done, there's no excuse for that.

[Dann-J]

If you're playing as a goody-two-shoes, then you shouldn't be doing any of Neeshka's quests at all.

[Tchos]

But stealing from the rich isn't considered evil in this game.  It's chaotic, and my law/chaos axis was neutral, just like Neeshka's.  My objection was to killing the guards, which I think would be evil.

[Basher of Glory]

If you're playing as a goody-two-shoes, then you shouldn't be doing any of Neeshka's quests at all.

Why? Except the last one was anything ok. To steal from Leldon was certainly not "evil", especially because this quest could be done without hurting someone.

 

What an irony!

[I_Raps]

This quest can still be done bloodlessly, but you have to be very careful.  The best approach is to go in with only Neeshka and your PC**, if you can handle Leldon with just a minimal party (you'll need to be able to deal with poison and invisibility, and don't expect Neeshka to be much help beyond absorbing an attack or two).  Both you and Neeshka should remain invisible and stealthy at all times - bring potions if you must.  Stand next to doors with a good listener and only open when it's clear on the other side.  Leave everyone behind closed doors (entry hall or kitchen) except the one sneaking around*.  Close doors behind you.
 
When you enter the kitchen, just inch inside, wait for the guard to clear, close the door, then step forward to the trigger*.  Be sure to tie up the kitchen help.  Make sure every character is in "peaceful follow" mode and ordered to stand still if not needed. Don't bring along any cats, badgers, weasels etc.  I'm not sure it matters, but if you brought Grobnar along (left in the entry hall, of course) he probably shouldn't be singing - speaking of which, anyone left in the entry hall should also be invisible and stealthy (and take off the heavy armor) (and speaking of Grobnar - Invisibility Sphere is an underrated spell).
 
There is one chest that if you open it, you WILL be spotted (there is a guard standing there staring at it, after all).  Remember - if you get spotted and attacked, you don't have to fight back if you can disappear and step aside (potion or HIPS);  don't expect a character not under your control to do this, though.  [Indeed, getting one hasted and heavily defended character spotted here and drawing all the guards into this room, then disappearing may be the best solution, though untested.]
 
You may think it better to pickpocket Vania's key, but it's actually better to confront her with your PC if you're a smooth talker.  You can have her take your party upstairs ("I'm robbing the place blind" "I find it impossible to lie to such a formidible lady") and bypass another couple of guards (in any case, you only need to get one character up the stairs, the others will find their way*).  Getting out is the same procedure;  again, remember only one character needs to make it to the door.*
 
* Some of this may well be gaming the system, but what do you care?  - you're aiming to be "the greatest thief in Neverwinter," after all.

**

Spoiler

I think you're stuck with Shandra, too; she's definitely invisible-in-the-entryway material

[Dann-J]

I suspect that killing isn't considered quite as evil an act in a world where clerics can raise the dead. More of a temporary inconvenience really. I'd like to think that wealthy employers would provide health cover to their guards that includes being returned to life if they die while on duty. If not, then the Guards Union really isn't doing its job.

 

Which 'raises' another question; if party members can raise or resurrect their dead on a regular basis, then why do we usually only kill named NPC enemies once in these kinds of game? Surely they've got friends or colleagues capable of arranging their resurrection, after which they're bound to want to track you down to get revenge. So far the only resurrected NPC I can remember is Drizzt, who you can kill in BG1 only to have him track you down again in BG2.

 

Spoiler

Come to think of it; Why did Amie stay dead when there was a cleric in town? Why did no-one try to raise Shandra, or Callum? Are the people of Faerun really so callous that they'd allow people to stay dead purely for plot-related reasons?

[I_Raps]

Spoiler

In the case of Shandra, if Elanee is with you she says "I can't even feel her ...  she's gone."  If you have Zhjaeve and not Elanee, she says something similar.  Come to think of it, Tarmas says "the girl is dead, leave her" about Amie (and I doubt Brother Merring is very high level).

 
Some deaths just aren't reversible (not just NWN2 but the whole D&D setting).  Adventurers are usually raisable because they have unfinished business, a higher calling, destiny, the hero gene, or some such.  Maybe they're Ta'veren.

[Dann-J]

Spoiler

I'm guessing Brother Merring would have a Scroll of Raise Dead or two on hand, even if he can't cast the spell himself. As for what Tarmas says; he's a wizard. What does he know about resurrection?

 

The True Resurrection spell would seem to be able to bring back just about anyone, provided they wanted to return to life.

[Tchos]

The thing about resurrection is that in the actual game rules, it's supposed to consume material components (a cost of 5K gold for Raise Dead, 10K for Resurrection, and 25K for True Resurrection), which would be a limiting factor in the game world.  I'm guessing material component costs were stripped from the NWN2 version of the rules for the sake of player convenience, but those costs would go a long way toward explaining why not everyone gets resurrected -- they can't afford it.  We can just assume that the material costs are "really" there for everyone else in the game world, but we just don't have to deal with them.

[Basher of Glory]

Have the rules changed if we look atr BG 1 and then NWN 2?

 

I remember my first playthrough of BG 1, when Imoen died during a fight somewhere far from the next church. I had to put her into my inventory, zone through many zones, fight with the overencumbered party until I finally reached the Friendly Arm Inn. There I had to pay a fortune to the cleric to have Imoen resurrected.

 

I guess, this would be an unreasonable demand for the so called "casual player" nowadays, right?

[Arkalezth]

Some PWs have implemented that system. Considering there are also some perma-death ones out there, it's not so bad.

There's a certain character that you kill in a certain module, only to find him alive later on. He explains that he always has a cleric in his payroll, and that he pays him in advance for any possible resurrection he may need.

[Tchos]

Have the rules changed if we look atr BG 1 and then NWN 2?

 

I remember my first playthrough of BG 1, when Imoen died during a fight somewhere far from the next church. I had to put her into my inventory, zone through many zones, fight with the overencumbered party until I finally reached the Friendly Arm Inn. There I had to pay a fortune to the cleric to have Imoen resurrected.

 

I had similar experiences with BG, and a particularly memorable one in IWD, and loved it.

 

Yes, the rules have changed a bit between 2nd edition (BG1) and 3.5e (NWN2), but it's only the video games that remove the material component costs.  The actual game rules specify the cost, as shown in the wiki entry for Raise Dead (and the manuals, of course). 

 

But, then, BG was also more lenient than the 2nd edition game rules, because it didn't include material component costs for spells either, and you only had to pay at a temple if you couldn't cast the spell yourself.  2nd edition didn't actually have material component costs for Raise Dead (it had physical costs on the caster), but your constitution score determined whether you could be raised, and you'd permanently lose a point of constitution every time you died, so you'd become weaker and weaker until you couldn't be raised again.

 

The only D&D video game that I know actually included costs for material components of spells is The Temple of Elemental Evil.

[Thorsson64]

ToEE was a good game (at least after the Co8 fixes). Only shame was that it had no MP.

[Dann-J]

Also, Raise Dead didn't work on elves in the 2nd edition games (although Resurrection did).

 

In Zhentil Keep, Zhentarim clerics wander around collecting the recently dead in order to raise them for free. The catch is that you become their property from that point on. Life as a Zhentarim slave probably isn't all that much better than being dead though.

[Basher of Glory]

ToEE was a good game (at least after the Co8 fixes). Only shame was that it had no MP.

What a pity that it was so short....

 

Ten levels, about ten hours of gameplay and game over.

 

Just wonder, why no other game had the "spiked chain" as an exotic weapon   What a weapon!

[andysks]

Basher of Glory, you might want to try the Co8 modpack for the ToEE. It goes to 20 and has many more quests as well.

[Basher of Glory]

Basher of Glory, you might want to try the Co8 modpack for the ToEE. It goes to 20 and has many more quests as well.

I did that, but the package I downloaded and installed provided more levels but not more feats.

Thus, a further progress of my party did not really happen.

 

OTOH the mobs did not gain more levels and so the fights became quickly boring.

 

So I guess, I had a very early version of said modpack, right?

 

 

BTW, when there is a game which should be redone then this would be certainly TTOEE.