171 réponses à ce sujet

[Lord of Mu]

Nice work, very extensive. I agree with you on many of your points. Now I'm going to wash out my eyes as it appears they have dried up ;

[DrFumb1ezX]

I took the time to read your post, and I did not regret a second of it. You made many good points, and although I played on the Xbox rather than PC, I still think it was a great post. The only thing I disagree about was the combat, but maybe its just because it felt really natural on the Xbox.
Great post, man.

[Dark Necronus2]

I read the whole thing and there was not a single idea or criticism included that I do not fully back. To call this "well said" would be quite the understatement.

[Lord_Saulot]

Thank you all! I am happy to know that others share my opinions, and I am sure it is useful for the developers to know that too.

soccerchick: I am glad that much of what I said was applicable to the XBox version as well. I do not know how the combat feels on that version, and I know there were some differences, so that is why I wanted to qualify my essay by saying I played only on PC.

[reddragon567]

 This needs to be stickied and linked to other topics when people complain about certain things. I really enjoyed the read and hopefully Bioware gets something out of it. 

[DrFumb1ezX]

@Lord_Saulot: Just for a quick opinion, how did you feel about the new elven design? I honestly liked the way they were in this game, and romanced Merrill because of it.
However, I have a feeling that my Warden may not exactly like being super-skinny. After all, he DID swing a gigantic 2h sword around.

*EDIT* I also romanced Merrill for her personality, and quest-line. God that was a great quest-line.

Modifié par soccerchick, 16 mars 2011 - 10:14 .

[Pygmali0n]

A great post - I was dubious at first because of the length - it usually means someone who lacks focus - but it was well worth the time to read it. I might not agree with everything but I'd vote for you as player representative Lord Saulot.

[reddragon567]

soccerchick wrote...

@Lord_Saulot: Just for a quick opinion, how did you feel about the new elven design? I honestly liked the way they were in this game, and romanced Merrill because of it.
However, I have a feeling that my Warden may not exactly like being super-skinny. After all, he DID swing a gigantic 2h sword around.

Finris swings around a giant 2h sword at super-speed. :happy:

[DarkSpider88]

Read just about all of your post except for the parts about the camera angle system for the PC (sorry since I play on consoles I saw it as not pertaining to me). I like and agree with your points except maybe the combat. I do want to give you kudos on writing the most unbiased and constructive review of this game I have seen to date.

[DrFumb1ezX]

reddragon567 wrote...

soccerchick wrote...

@Lord_Saulot: Just for a quick opinion, how did you feel about the new elven design? I honestly liked the way they were in this game, and romanced Merrill because of it.
However, I have a feeling that my Warden may not exactly like being super-skinny. After all, he DID swing a gigantic 2h sword around.

Finris swings around a giant 2h sword at super-speed. :happy:

He's magically "enhanced".  

Unless having Darkspawn blood helps with strength.

[fthg42]

Fantastic post. I agree with you on some points, and was able to see where you were coming from on those we differed on, which actually got me thinking more about what I thought about those points. Wonderfully provocative, and a great read. I'm glad you spent the time to do this.

Modifié par fthg42, 16 mars 2011 - 10:39 .

[Pygmali0n]

soccerchick wrote...

reddragon567 wrote...

soccerchick wrote...

@Lord_Saulot: Just for a quick opinion, how did you feel about the new elven design? I honestly liked the way they were in this game, and romanced Merrill because of it.
However, I have a feeling that my Warden may not exactly like being super-skinny. After all, he DID swing a gigantic 2h sword around.

Finris swings around a giant 2h sword at super-speed. :happy:

He's magically "enhanced".  

Unless having Darkspawn blood helps with strength.

The shame is that two handed broadswords were absolutely massive - they just weren't so large that they swung through the floor - just a tiny bit of restraint was needed to make them realistic.

[DrFumb1ezX]

Pygmali0n wrote...

soccerchick wrote...

reddragon567 wrote...

soccerchick wrote...

@Lord_Saulot: Just for a quick opinion, how did you feel about the new elven design? I honestly liked the way they were in this game, and romanced Merrill because of it.
However, I have a feeling that my Warden may not exactly like being super-skinny. After all, he DID swing a gigantic 2h sword around.

Finris swings around a giant 2h sword at super-speed. :happy:

He's magically "enhanced".  

Unless having Darkspawn blood helps with strength.

The shame is that two handed broadswords were absolutely massive - they just weren't so large that they swung through the floor - just a tiny bit of restraint was needed to make them realistic.

Never had a problem with the size of the swords, just making a comparison. 
...
Everything feels like it has a sexual tagline attached to it..... Isabella....

[Lord_Saulot]

@soccerchick: I liked the elf redesign. I think that Bioware succeeded in making them distinctive, though I liked the qunari redesign better. I do think that the elves had a certain awkwardness to them, though part of that is that I have not fully gotten used to the changes.

And thank you for the support everyone. I may not respond individually to every comment, but I appreciate every one who has taken the time to read and comment, whether you agree with everything I wrote or you disagreed with some things.

Oh, and regarding the two handed swords, I agree with Pygmali0n that making them a little bit smaller would have been just right.

Modifié par Lord_Saulot, 16 mars 2011 - 10:53 .

[Hach1]

Excellent post Lord_Saulot. I agree with most of what you've said. Personally, i prefer the Origins interface, where my map looks like a map and not a GPS system.

However, while i may disagree with you on minor aesthetic issues, on the major issues such as combat speed, enemy 'waves' and encounter design i agree completely with you.

Unseen enemies coming in waves isn't a terrible mechanic, it can be used in some circumstances to good effect, such as in Origins spiders dropping from a cave ceiling or a seemingly solo-"boss" summoning undead from the ground. However when it's used to the near exclusion of other mechanics it causes fustration and becomes tedious to deal with.

Combat speed is also an issue we agree on. The increase in speed combined with the above "wave" issue really subverts a players ability to plan ahead. When you mow down targets and can't predict the incoming location of the next ones, why create a choke point with your heavily armored characters as you suggested, or why use "bombardment" AoE, they'll be dead shortly and others will come from- just about anywhere.

I also agree with the armor/weapon and skill comments you made. Each change alone seems reasonable again when they're all combined it really waters down choices you have in character developement. Varric is a great example, his weapon is a valid thing to "lock". I also understand the lure of these types of changes from a design stand point, as when the developers know what you'll be wearing it's alot easier to tune encounters/enemies. However it really detracts from the overall experience and replay value, it's not like next 2-3 times i play through my Varric character is likely to change in any significant manner.

Overall a very good read.

[Kinkaku]

Great read, enjoyed it very much..now I must find new contacts

Modifié par Kinkaku, 16 mars 2011 - 11:09 .

[MultiMann]

Really enjoyed it - I felt quite similar to the suggestions. The resource locations are probably my favorite feature strangely

I felt the weapon / armor icons were a little bit too generic as a whole for me though and being able to organise / compare items for my party was a bit of a pain as I stashed most of my things in the made available storage chest (I couldn't find a way to reach my party members inventory's without moving to another region every time! Argh ).

Thanks for the read

Modifié par MultiMann, 16 mars 2011 - 11:25 .

[Lord_Saulot]

Thanks guys!
@Hach1: Great comments! You have especially done a great job in explaining what many of us do not like about the combat wave encounter design.

@Multimann: You raise another issue I forgot to note in my post.  In Origins, one could access all inventories at camp, or, IIRC, at the Arl of Redcliffe's estate in Denerim.  In DA2, I always had to switch in and out my whole party in turn if I wanted full inventory access.  This seems to be an area where Origins was more accessible than DA2.

Modifié par Lord_Saulot, 16 mars 2011 - 11:26 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

I applaud the OP. I'm working on a similar treatise, myself.

[ragnaven]

Well, if you will allow my humble thoughts Saulot I shall give a few. Firstly I felt that I'd of rather crafting been find the regents and then the people you knew having crafting stations in their houses you could order stuff from. You would have to reinburse them for the viles and junk regents like water and so on, but I'd of felt that was better. It would have also allowed for more interaction with the party. Imagine if you can coming into Merril's house to get some poisions done, you walk in and there she is working away. Suddenly she says Ohh, ohh run, and comes running at you as a beaker explodes, a shard of glass coted in poision burying itself in the wall next to your head.

I agree with you on the idea that rogues and warriors needed more weapons, I have always felt that these games miss something of the rogue in it. I grew up reading Robert E. Howards Conan stories, my favorite of all time is tower of the elephant. In it conan meets the king of theives in Shadazar, who is a fat man that plys his trade with tricks as much as weapons. He promptly dies, but not before he is seen using some nifty gadgets. Which would have been a good tab to have more of in the game, a whole tree that is all about gadgets, like dirty fighting was in Origins.

I feel rogues could also benifit from thrown weapons, a type of mid damage range weapon that is both melee and ranged. Something that would be all theirs, reflecting the versitility of the rogue class. While warriors should have all the classic weapons open to them, archery, dual, weapon and sheild, and two hander. This reflects the warrior as a master of weapons trained in war.

I see the use of this allowing rogues to use thrown daggers, axes, and the like, compiled with a type of gadget tree that works like aoe crowd control magic. Stink bombs, sneezing powder, knock out dust, maybe top end skill being nightmare vapors something that makes enemies hallucinate and maybe attack each other. While doing all this it is easier for the rogue to back stab his enemies.

While on the other end the warrior still gets to plug away, slaying people left and right with any weapon he wants. I appologize for the length of my thoughts on that, I just felt like giving my two cents to your post.

[Lord_Saulot]

@Sylvius the Mad: Thanks, I look forward to reading yours when you post it.

@Ragnaven: Don't apologize! I think you made some great suggestions for expanding the crafting and weapons systems. There is a lot of potential for improvement over both Origins and DA2, and your ideas are the kinds of things I would love to see in a future game.

Modifié par Lord_Saulot, 16 mars 2011 - 11:44 .

[toggled]

Wow, thanks for your thoughtful and elegant review of the game. It should be stickied! I agreed with many of your points, except my opinion about the quality of the quests is more negative than yours.

Your assessment of the conversation wheel was interesting. Most people either love it or hate it, but like you I think it neither adds nor detracts from the game. Since it doesn't add anything to the game for me, it seems like a lot of wasted effort. I was happy with the text descriptions in Origins. A further bonus of seeing the text descriptions was that I could read witty replies which I would not necessarily have selected while playing the game.

[vigna]

Thanks for posting it. I read it. I don't play PC games much anymore, because I just don't like the experience as much, but there is certainly a place for PC gaming. I just couldn't relate to your PC pros and cons.
Your other points were well thought out--I agree there were many redundancies. I could tell you all I liekd or disliked, but that is subjective. I'll just say I agreed with your points about level design, and combat (that wasn't PC only). I don't think you went far enough on the junk inventory system.
I also agree with your views on the PC voice, and the companions, and companion quests vs. the item quests.
Good job.

[IronVanguard]

A great post, good sir. I believe is covers many of my own concerns, only considerably better written then what I could do.

And some of those ideas do sound neat, ragnaven.

[JeeWeeJ]

Wow, i read most of it (yes, i did skip parts) and i wanted to thank you for the good read and the time you put into it!
I totally agree with you that DA2 isnt a bad game, its just not Origins 2, so to speak.

And since this is one of the few threads with a decent discussion going on, i'll drop my 2 cents here.

The thing that  "bothered" me the most with DA2 was that it was just so much different from Origins. Now im not saying change is bad or anything, its just that i -being a big Origins fan- did not want nor really expected this many changes. As you say, dont fix what aint broken! Now, i know that thats just my personal opinion (and im glad im allowed to have one!) but well, there you have it! And yes, i do blame Bioware for this! Why? Because all their sequels have been awesome! Baldurs Gate 2 was a bigger and better version of Baldurs Gate 1. The same goes for the Icewinds Dale and Mass Effect series. They all were very much like their prequel, but more refined, overall better but still very much their own game. Where Bioware always walked a evolutionary path, now its like they went the revolutionary way. And well...thats...dissapointing!

Another thing i missed when compared to Origins is that i dont feel bad that i finished the game. When i slew the arch demon in Origins i was like "CRAP! I've finished it! NOOOOoooo....!!!!", but now with DA2 i'm like "ok, done...next game!" I've always compared Bioware RPG's with digital novels: it takes a while to get sucked in, but after a while youre hooked and you really dont want to stop playing. DA2 feels more like a comic, its fun, its flashy with a lot of  WHAM! and BAM! balloons, but it didnt really suck me in. I dont feel like i need to do another playthrough to see what the other dialogue options would do or to complete my missing achievements. And thats where i really get the feeling that something is "wrong".


Anyway, what makes me wonder is the following: what would have happened if this game wasnt called Dragon Age 2, but Dragon Age: -INSERT NAME HERE-. Would it have caused this kind of online warfare between those who do and dont like this game? Would we be discussing it in this detail? Or is this just business as normal and should i leave my cave more often?

I guess time will tell
what will happen to the DA franchise...will it go back to its Origins
roots or will it go the action RPG way of Mass Effect? Or maybe both? (2
games for two different RPG markets? A man can dream, right?) Because to me it seems that this "hybrid version", even though its definitely NOT a bad game, just polarizes the fanbase.