171 réponses à ce sujet

[Lord_Saulot]

Kilshrek, I noticed the same situation where my weaker companions would get locked by newly spawning enemies and killed. This would be remedied if new waves had to come out of other rooms or other places where they could realistically be positioned. Of course, there are some enemies that it makes sense to have them appear suddenly and without warning, but for most enemies, positioning them realistically would have gone a long way.

[2Hard2C]

Did I mention, that this is a great review/impression?

A bit long, but very exhaustive and shows that really the game is good, not bad in the slightest, but really wasn't a stand-out as Origins was.

[Kilshrek]

Lord_Saulot wrote...

Kilshrek, I noticed the same situation where my weaker companions would get locked by newly spawning enemies and killed. This would be remedied if new waves had to come out of other rooms or other places where they could realistically be positioned. Of course, there are some enemies that it makes sense to have them appear suddenly and without warning, but for most enemies, positioning them realistically would have gone a long way.

In the case of demons and undead things.... and.... arachnids.. I suppose appearing out of nowhere is fine, but yes, waves upon waves of bandits/mabari/Qunari mysteriously getting the drop on your softer targets is ridiculous.

Having them drop from walls is no help, having them appear behind your warriors is no help. I'm not entirely sure what realistic positioning of the enemies would be. Having them all spawn behind their initial companions? It's rather difficult since you can approach most of the Kirkwall encounters from multiple angles, except during certain story fights. But when you're on the Wounded Coast I see no logical reason for enemies to appear from a path you cleared not 5 minutes ago.

But then there are also certain fights when the main enemy becomes invincible for a short period, a templar and the high dragon, plus the occasional mage come to mind. How these moments of invincibility add any actual challenge is a little beyond me since all it does is throw more waves of disposable enemies at you, and prolongs the fight.

[HighlandBerserkr]

The armour and weapons are definitely more limited In DA2 I hardly ever had to switch to different ar our or weapons, but the armour designs are 1000 times better this time around, the only massive armor I liked from Origins was the legion of the dead armour, especially on a dwarf!

[Enlightenmonk]

I... Well, first of all very very impressive. I would love to see more criticisms that are backed by solid words. But I do disagree on some points, like companions, which you say are very well written, I'd like to contradict that statement with the fact that in the very next few sentences you show that the limited free dialog with them limits their character development...

The only flaw doesn't rely on the dialog however, in truth I did not fully read your... essay so I am not sure if you bring this up.
The time that the champion spends in Kirkwall spans over, a lot of years, in which he would have had interactions with his companions undoubtedly and this shows with SOME of the characters like Aveline, who develops over the years with her own relationship and her interaction with Hawke feels genuine, like it developed, their friendship clearly defined. But so many of the other characters are left in the cold, as if they were unfinished in their development, just halted... The years did nothing to them seemingly, and this is poorly excused with tidbits of cinematic dialogs between companions that are heartwarming to see but do little in justifying the bigger picture.
Romantic relationship... I would like to say that I was pursuing Isabella, and there were moments in Act 3 that I really started warming up to her, she changes, but it ends with a small dialog, nothing else... Just as I am about to just feel like she is something, it just drops and I can't do nothing but click on her with repeated responses that don't.. .do anything.
I digress, I honestly felt like it was a step down from Alistair or Morrigan, who were given a breath of life very easily.

edit: I woud like to point out that this was just a small qualm, I agree with many of your other words and I respect the effor you had put into this.

Modifié par Enlightenmonk, 18 mars 2011 - 08:36 .

[Inverness Moon]

OP I just have to say I'm very impressed with your post and I hope the developers consider it.

I'm also currently in Act 2 about 40 hours in. I just want to comment that I agree that removing the overhead view in favor of more freedom with level design might not have been a good trade-off.

I always value gameplay more than graphics, and the value of the overhead view is not nearly matched by improved level designs (what little there were).

I want BioWare to go back to the DAO style of level making for DA3 that allows the overhead view.

Edit: I also thought that having waves and waves of enemies was ridiculous. If used rarely with important fights, it would have been okay, but doing it for every fight is silly. It meant that there was a serious lack of situational awareness and I wasn't sure how to use my spells properly since stuff could just appear out of nowhere and ruin my plans.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 18 mars 2011 - 08:45 .

[Wizard of thay]

Whilst I agree with the comments made in general bt the OP
I would like to say that Bioware managed to create a city full of...tension. which is great and I haven't really seen tha in any other game.

my critisms of the games at the moment are.

1) combat camera,
very difficult to get a strategic overview of everythign that is happening.

2) character interaction.
other than the quests appearing for the companions
dog interactions
NPC-NPC conversations
ther is not an amazing amount of interaction between the player and NPC to build a relationship.
things I would have loved to see would revolve around a technique use in Mass effect 2 and Dragon age and to a lesser degree in Hawkes estate
see and item and click on it and then there would be a Player/ NPC conversation.

[Fraevar]

Thank you for posting your thoughts. I thought you accurately managed to analyze many of DA2's strengths and weaknesses while not oversimplifying your points.

[Lord_Saulot]

Thanks, guys. All of your points are good ones. I hope the developers are still reading this thread to get a feel for some of the things you are saying.

[BlackIce541]

Wall of Text crits Scatcat101's eyes for 999999.

Nice review though.

[Dan UK]

Out of interest what was your (OP) take in the ending?

Do you feel that that was a justified end for an interesting story, or do you feel the whole Varric narrative (which was a big hook) was abused as a means to sell more DLC/copies of DA3?

[TearsoftheForest]

• JohnEpler wrote...

It was a lengthy read! But thanks for posting it - it's quite detailed and you defend your points well.

Just letting you know that it has been read and taken into consideration!

How about some color on the maps? like for shops and exits and other important areas. Instead of black, black and black on a black background?  Don't mean to gripe  otherwise I'm having fun, but I have stick my eyeballs right next to the monitor to see these places. And thats no fun.

thanks.

[_Aine_]

First off, that was very long. But very detailed and it gave me an excuse to get another cup of coffee.  And knowing me, my post will be equally long once I get going.  I will attempt to edit

I appreciated reading your points and thoughts. When I played i stopped around the mid-Act-2 mark also and started to jot things down I hoped I didn't forget. Sometimes an overall impression can dilute valid earlier points ( because for many people, it could very well be those earlier points that make them simply stop the game and not continue to GET an overall picture.)

My thoughts:

Act 1 dragged on too long with meaningless quests.  I almost wanted to stop for a while there.  

Waves (swooping?) = bad. So much has been said on this I don't feel I need to expand too on it. Increase the difficulty of fewer enemies. Have waves used like spice, infrequently but with style to accent a more difficult battle.

Cartoonish flying of bosses or enemies dropping from sky = not so good. I couldn't believe I saw a super-man-esque ending boss. I wanted to stop and stare but was busy fighting. I did have a WTF? moment though and shook my head. Enemies in my opinion shouldn't fall from the sky. Or a 30 foot drop from a wall landing on your feet. I jumped off my shed roof as a child once. It hurts like lighting shoots up your legs from the ground up. lol you will notice I said I did it *once*

Standoffish companions that only want to talk to you when THEY want to talk to you makes the writing seem MUCH worse than it is. The companions were very well written in my opinion and this keeping us at arms reach did just that to me, I never did feel very close to any of them, even if I liked some of them very much. This could be solved by having two seperate systems conversations follow - one that is macro in scope, follows major plot timeline. Then more trivial conversational stuff that could even be repeated if the pc chooses. I didn't like the "only talk at home base" in ME2 much for the same reason. It is *not* what close people do and your companions should feel *close*. I am not saying you should be able to stop battle to talk about shoes and the history of thedas but still.

Illusion of choice. I felt that the Arishok ending was forced and there was no real choice involved there. Maybe this opinion will soften on my next playthrough ( as I am going to try to play it through again) so we will see.

The Arishok, to me, was the most compelling non-player or companion character. Hands down. I was not secretly disappointed when the ending of his involvement was over a) so early and with less ...hmm.... well, it didn't end as I would have hoped and I mean in general not specific.

I liked the new art-style fine even though for many of the characters I liked the old character design better - and by that I mean specific models. The men seem manly enough but the proportions of some of the women are off for females. But then again I am female, so maybe that is the issue there. Kind of like in ME2 i was so surprised that my female shepard had such a butchy walk and every single animation, where for example Samara had very feminine walks, poses etc.

I wasn't a fan of so many re-used areas. It made it feel very rushed to me and short-cuttish. Similarly, so much strict pathing in areas - a bit more open (ok a lot more open) would have been wonderful.

I think the map quest markers actually took away from my game in retrospect. It too easily led me where I needed to go and maybe I missed some things. If I could do the first playthrough again I would have the map help turned off while in world markers still there ( if this is possible, I haven't tried yet).

The "overcrowded" city felt a bit empty to me. Needs more bustle, more people ( or a different descriptor used, because it certainly didn't feel "full" to me.)

I enjoyed the game though, once Act 2 started more so. It just didn't feel like a successor to Dragon Age Origins to me though, and rather a whole new game set in a similar history.

Surprise like: Fenris, despite me choosing not to romance him and him sitting squarely half-way into rivalry, decided to support me and stand on my side to fight against the templars despite my character being fairly moderate, supporting equality for mages rather than 100% freedoms but was given little choice to solve anything without a blade. This was disappointing, but the fact that mage-hating Fenris had a change of heart in the end where it came to friendship...was very much a surprise. I fully expected to have to fight him lol and I liked him! Great voice.

Voiced protagonist:  At least the Female Hawk, was wonderful. I really enjoyed her work, despite having misgivings.   

There is probably more but hopped up on cold medicine and feeling like crap I should leave it at that.

Thanks for sharing your opinions though OP and everyone else who did so following. Most of us who have criticisms were huge fans of DA:O so it is nice to be able to share our opinions with some dignity and think we may be heard and not merely disregarded as angry-fans, which I am certainly not.

I would rate the game a solid 7/10. It could have so easily been 9 though is what makes me the most sad for me. Still, I enjoyed the game. It does not have the easy replayability as DA:O though which takes a good chunk off of my enjoyment of the game for me. That is just my *personal* preference though, which I acknowledge.

Hope this is somewhat literate

Modifié par shantisands, 18 mars 2011 - 02:47 .

[KennethAFTopp]

JohnEpler wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

I've read Gravity's Rainbow.

I've gained Immunity to Lengthy as a class feat.

Did you like it?

I appreciated it, at the very least. I can see what Pynchon was trying to do, and I think he succeeded. 

I'm happy I read it. I don't know if I liked it per se - it was weighty and it got incredibly dense at parts. But I think it's a worthwhile read, though I recommend copious amounts of coffee while attempting it.

Did you just review a review?

Dear op, I agree with alot of what you said here,  and you have inspired me to write my own lengthy review.

[Lord_Saulot]

@DanUK: I was satisfied with the ending. I liked the frame narrative, and felt that the story was as much about Cassandra's coming to terms with the Champion's legacy as with the actual events of the game. I do not think that DLC will really continue or resolve the open ends of the storyline - I think it will more likely be used to fill out the main narrative, unless there is a full-sized expansion. DA3 is another issue. They are clearly trying to set up a major world-spanning plot for DA3, and that actually makes me happy, because I am hoping it will be more conducive to an Origins-style game.

@TearsoftheForest: Great suggestion! The area maps in DA:O looked a lot nicer because they depicted the area in a fashion that looked like a painted map, with multiple colors.

@Shantisands: Thanks for sharing all those opinions. Your point about combining both approaches to companion dialogue is excellent. Personally, I have no problem with illusion of choice, since it is really necessary in a genre that encourages freedom but still suffers from technical constraints. But, I do agree that sometimes illusions can be better hidden. I was happy that we had multiple options on dealing with the Arishok, once you get to that final point. I agree with many of your points, and I appreciate your sharing them! By the way, even though Fenris did not stick with me in the end, I felt that his reasons were valid, and we honored and respected eachother regardless. He was a great character.

@KennethAFTopp: I look forward to reading yours when you write it.

[szsleepy]

I did my best. I couldn't read the whole thing though. Heck of a thing to write 15 pages like that. My criticism about the game really only comes down to two points. More keybinds and stronger mages.

Good read while it lasted though. Thanks for posting.

[Lord_Saulot]

Szleepy, I didn't expect everyone to read the whole thing, but I appreciate whatever you did read. Also, not everything I wrote was a criticism; I tried to fairly praise what I thought was good about the game as well. Thanks!

[milena87]

Thank you, it was a great read; you make some really interesting arguments and I have to agree with most of them.

I actually enjoyed the gameplay in Dragon Age 2 more than the one in Origins: the skills, the attributes, and the uniqueness of every class are all changes that I like. Yes, the combat is super-fast this time and maybe something in the middle between DA2 and Origins could work better, but if I have to choose between DA2's and Origins's speed I'd go with DA2. I only really miss the tactical view and the detachable camera from Origins, it was really something they should have left.

About the enemies spawning from nowhere: I liked the challenge, but I agree that it doesn't make any sense, apart from the various demons.

Also, I like the new crafting system a lot, much better than Origins and Awakening (I hated the runecrafting in Awakening).

I'm somewhat neutral about the locked gear on companions: I don't dislike the idea, but, as you suggested, there could still be more customization.

One last thing: I would have loved more dialogue between Hawke and the companions; it's ok to talk to them only at their homes, but give poor Hawke the chance to start a conversation once in a while, not only when summoned. The party banters were great though.

Modifié par milena87, 18 mars 2011 - 04:46 .

[Lord_Saulot]

Milena87, thank you for joining the discussion. Great point about the companion dialogues though. I think that it raises a larger issue. Even though I liked the story as a whole, overall, with companions or with Kirkwall's movers and shakers, Hawke feels too reactive, and never proactive.

BTW, what are the numbers in your signature?

[milena87]

The numbers are from the ME and DA lithographs I have; it's not up to date though, but I'm kinda lazy...

[Lord_Saulot]

Ah, thank you for explaining!

[SnowHeart1]

Saulot, I actually read the whole thing and I have to agree with most of what you wrote. Thanks for taking the time to write that; I'm glad that such constructive feedback is making its way to Bioware and, for all the risk of being branded an "elitist", I'm glad you also pointed out that your review is from a PC-user's perspective. There are differences between the platforms and, to the extent they are relevant, it's important to make a note of them.

I disagree a bit with you on the story; to me it fell flat. I understand this is supposed to be the story of Hawke, rather than the story of Kirkwall or Thedas. In a sense, it's a coming of age story and, too frequently, I find such stories suffer from a lack of focus and a compelling narrative. Obviously, reasonable people disagree on this point.

I thought your distinction on the quality of the level design versus the recycling of the levels was right on target. I've made the same point before and I think the compliment has been lost too frequently in the discussion. The attention to detail that went into the levels was great -- from 3rd dimension to the lighting and all the other atmospherics. I think there was some missed opportunity with the different heights, as too often my mages and archers couldn't shoot through a railing or small pile of stone, but otherwise... the actual designs were great, they were just terribly overused.

Your discussion on companion interaction was very interesting to me. Gaider or someone has posted elsewhere that there is actually just as much and perhaps even more companion dialog in DA2 than there was in DAO. This has puzzled me tremendously as I felt it had been significantly cut. And I'm thinking your comment that the PC/companion dialog only comes at points of choosing by the companion's is what gives that impression.

Anyway, it was a great review and offering of feedback and I'm really glad that a Bioware rep has taken note of it, and particularly glad for the constructive and helpful way in which you presented your views. Major kudos and +20 cookies.

Modifié par SnowHeart1, 18 mars 2011 - 05:25 .

[Lord_Saulot]

Thank you for your feedback! You make some great points too. The point about not being able to properly utilize the different heights was something I noticed a few times. I actually came across that very early on in an Act I side quest, where I placed my archer and my mage on a ledge while bringing my warriors around to the main path - only to find that the ranged attackers were not able to fire down and had to be brought into the main fray for it to work properly. It was disappointing to say the least.

As far as the story goes, I can acknowledge that different types of stories don't always appeal to everyone. My point of view is from someone who finds this type of story just as interesting as the larger epic, but I suspect DA3 will be a return to the world-spanning epic form. That said, I think that even those who don't like the more personal type of story might have enjoyed it more if Bioware had found ways to make Hawke feel more proactive. That applies to the companion conversations as well.

[Aesieru]

JohnEpler wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

I've read Gravity's Rainbow.

I've gained Immunity to Lengthy as a class feat.

Did you like it?

I appreciated it, at the very least. I can see what Pynchon was trying to do, and I think he succeeded. 

I'm happy I read it. I don't know if I liked it per se - it was weighty and it got incredibly dense at parts. But I think it's a worthwhile read, though I recommend copious amounts of coffee while attempting it.

Why is a cinematic designer dealing with reviews... or even a moderator?

Public relations, consumer support... some type of department that is more... aligned with that purpose?

[MerlinJ120]

Thanks for taking the time to write this. It so refershing to read this from the mass of drabble that makes up most of this board. In a sense, I sympathize with a company like Bioware, who have to deal with a portion of their customer base that has the maturity of a 5 year old. But I digress.... )

I agree with most of your points. I'm only so far in to Act II yet, but I think the die is cast as to who the game will play out for me. Like you, I believe it's a good game, but I'd be suprised if I'm as attached to it as I was to Origins by the time I'm done. In fairness, I played though Origins 3 times, once as each class, warrior, rogue and mage, so I think it's not suprising that I would have more attachment considering the time invested. I think those making some statements about DA2, need to take that into account, after only playing the game for a week. I'm 20+ hours in and only a couple of hours into Act II, so I don't understand those who say they finished the game in 22 hours and claim to have done every quest?

My main points would be

1) The recycling of area maps breaks immersion for me. It clearly points to a time constraint - whether or not this was Bioware's decision or a corporate edict from EA is unknown - but it is what it is. Obviously a lot of work went into the new combat system instead.

2) The "wave" apporach on enemies is ok but over-used. I find that tactically, I hold back on my AOE's etc as long as possible, knowing that I will likely need them later in the battle. There is nothing wrong with this at all as an approach and forces tough choices on the player as to when to use the limited spell and talent resouces available. I've also gotten used to constantly getting ready for the "next wave" and get ready to move my soft mages as soon as possible to keep them alive. Once again, this is a tactical decision, but as with recycling areas, doesn't need to happen every time. I haven't checked, but playing on hard it always happens. Is it the same on "Normal"?

3) The characters are great but once again, why not be able to have a reasonable conversation whenever you want, even if you could only have the deeper plot driven conversations at the companions home? Not a big point but once again, builds the immerision and illusion of choice.

4) I don't have a problem at all with a story that focuses on a character as opposed to saving the world on an epic scale. I think Bioware is to be congratulated on trying to make a game with a different focus, rather than the standard fantasy story. The narrative approaches might be provide some great opportunities to learn more in DLC, ie Leiliana's song which I think is great.

5) I didn't like the streamlined inventory at first but as time goes by it doesn't bother me. It actually makes more sense that companions are going to have some say in what they wear, but they don't mind you helping them out with some better gear.

6) Finally the linear storey is fine by me. I've tried to play and finish Oblivion three times but it just gets on my nerves. I look at these stories like reading a book and like to work my way through the storey. I don't like to have to go to an FAQ somewhere to figure out what I am going to do next. So while I'm a totally sandbox world is great for some, I also enjoy a good tight storey where I get to play my part in it. Both approaches are valid.

Thanks for the thoughful comments, and I hope that the developer takes note of it, as opposed to having to wade through the other 1000 pages of crap posts that are on this site.