171 réponses à ce sujet

[Lord_Saulot]

@MerlinJ120: Good points about time invested. In my case, I have played DA:O on and off from the week it came out until just a few weeks ago. I have played it more than most games I own, and obviously, I have played DA2 far less. But, DA2 doesn't have the same sense of magic that I saw when I first played DA:O. I do not get the same impression of playing a game whose design philosophy was almost perfect for my tastes. I do intend to play it again, and I am hoping it will grow on me at least a little. I don't think its a bad game after all. I agree with you about the game length, by the way. It took me 65 hours, and I know there were side quests I did not properly finish (I had to turn in a side quest in a certain area in act 3, and when I went there it triggered the end sequence, so I still had other quests in my journal).

Thank you for all your feedback! I agree with many of the points you made, and I appreciate your taking the time to post your opinions here. I hope that the developers are still keeping an eye on this thread, because, in addition to my initial post, the posters who have taken the time to respond have provided some great feedback.

[backrow]

great read, i was bored at work haha.

i fully agree with you, your example of shield bash and the difference between DA2 and Origins is something that i noticed as well. and finishing moves were satisfying in the first one, here, i can't even tell if there's any, it's all too fast and enemies go BOOM as if they were fed the Quanari powder and set on fire. that's not visceral, that's just messy and unneeded.

[Lord_Saulot]

I think the only finishers in this game are the cinematic ones that play when you kill certain bosses. To me, those play a different role than the in-combat finishers from the first game.

[_Aine_]

backrow wrote...
. and finishing moves were satisfying in the first one, here, i can't even tell if there's any, it's all too fast and enemies go BOOM as if they were fed the Quanari powder and set on fire. that's not visceral, that's just messy and unneeded.

So true. *sigh* I remember my first decapitation ( errr, perhaps creepy to be sentimental about this, but I digress...) from DAO.  It was so cool because it was rare which made it, well, special.  Finishing moves, likewise.   Here, they just blow up into pieces so very often ( always the same dude when blown up too, weird non?)  it isn't as special.  

I guess...sometimes it isn't the changes, it is the subtlety of the blending of the changes that have them work exceptionally well, decently or not at all.  

My mage (Anders) in my rogue playthrough frequently got cornered and was killed eventually without even being able to get back to his feet to defend himself. Surely a mage could cast spells horizontally. Honest, I have heard from reliable sources that this is true.    but it wasn't a game-killer for me.  Sometimes, Anders deserved to have a little pressure exerted on him, the pain in the arse.    

Modifié par shantisands, 18 mars 2011 - 08:04 .

[JamieCOTC]

Best analysis of the game I have read. Great work, OP. I agree w/ most of your points, especially combat, the PC camera and the story. If there is any criticism I would add it would be how mage Hawke played in the story. A game is not a movie and sometimes you do have to accept certain things that don't make a lot of sense. Example, I can forgive Wynn not knowing (or caring) that the Warden was a blood mage as there were bigger issues and really how much of the plot would that have changed? DA2 is a different animal and w/ the exception of one scene, I won't spoil anything, but the relationship between the Templars and mage Hawke is quite disappointing.

[tanerb123]

very good. thanks for taking time to put all the words that needs to be said

[Lord_Saulot]

@JamieCOTC: Wynne is a good example - an example of a genuine improvement to DA:O would have been making the environment and other characters more reactive to your character development choices. However, I think that by making specializations auto-unlocked, DA2 has actually stepped backward in that regard.

[JamieCOTC]

Lord_Saulot wrote...

@JamieCOTC: Wynne is a good example - an example of a genuine improvement to DA:O would have been making the environment and other characters more reactive to your character development choices. However, I think that by making specializations auto-unlocked, DA2 has actually stepped backward in that regard.

My problem w/ mage Hawke isn't so much w/ game mechanics as it is w/ story.  Mage Hake's story should have been completely different from Warrior and Rogue.  There are differences, but not enough to even begin to make sense. 

[Lord_Saulot]

My comment was not about mechanics, per se, but rather about the interconnectedness of story and mechanics. To me, the two should be intertwined - changing the story for mage Hawke to better reflect your class would reflect that.

[Luvinn]

Thanks for this excellent discussion about how you see Dragon Age II. It's very refreshing to see someone talk about their likes and dislikes instead of the typical "this game sucks" posts that litter the general forum. If more people fairly and thoughtfully reviewed games like this, user reviews wouldn't be considered useless.

I agree with many of the points that you bring out. One thing i thought was a major improvement over DA:O was the combat. Yes, i enjoy the fast paced combat over the slower one. What gets me about Origins combat is many of the abilities take too long to get off. If you try to shoot a genlock thats running at you with pinning shot, it doesn't even connect until hes in melee range (although archery was sub-par in that game anyway).

The waves of enemies however, I agree with you 100%. There is no tactical approach to set up your characters, and you can pretty much guess what every single encounter in Kirkwall at night is going to be like.

What i love about DA2 though is the removal of the silent protagonist. Maybe I'm in the minority here, but i just never felt a connection to the characters who are silent, not just in Origins, but games like Half Life, and Dead Space, etc. I mean, i understand the reason behind a silent main character, but i feel a much stronger connection to, lets say, Commander Sheperd, than i ever did with my DA:O characters (can't really even remember their names). It made me think twice, and maybe a third time about what i say to someone, or what decision I made in Mass Effect, whereas in Origins, i really never had to agonize about what i said.

All in all, i think in fairness i would rate DA2 a 8.5/10. Its not as epic as DA:O was to me (i would rate that a 9.5), but it is still a good game. Its fun, replayable, and has a cast of great characters. To rate it any lower than a 6 however, is just unfair and biased. If a game works (DA2 works), isn't bug filled (DA2 isn't), uses new technology (dx11), and has replay value (just about all bioware games do) then any self respecting reviewer who doesn't have the luxury of being anonymous on the internet would give that game a 6 at minimum. Game Informer, who use a x/10 scale rate a 6 as "Limited Appeal. Although there may be fans of games receiving this score, many will be left yearning for a more rewarding game experience." I think that sums up 99% of all the negative reviews.

[Lord_Saulot]

Luvinn, thank you for your well-considered comments. I can appreciate your qualm about Origins combat, but that could have been remedied by speeding up use of particular abilities. It should, after all, be quicker for an arrow to close the distance than for a running genlock.

Also, while the voiced protagonist doesn't do much to me, I appreciate your opinion, and I understand that a lot of people like that kind of thing. However, my concern is that others are aware that this change does not come without potential costs.

[Hedera]

Wow. That was incredibly long. But it was also incredibly well-written. Kudos to you, OP. As for the actual content, I really enjoyed DAII, but still found myself agreeing with nearly everything you said. That said, I liked the changes in combat; I frequently describe the combat in Origins as glacial. I do, however, think a middle ground could be found, as the ridiculous teleporting rogue is, well, ridiculous. Thank you for one of the only well-reasoned, collected, fair, and well-defended reviews I have seen thus far.

[TheSpaceHamster]

Well done - while I understand other forum-goers interest in..."correcting" your post, it's your own thoughts spelled out in writing, doesn't need fixing!

As well as many other posters, the constant "gibbing" of enemies is goofy now; instead of slicing someone with a longsword it's like I shot them at point blank range with a grenade launcher.

[Lord_Saulot]

Thanks guys!

@TheSpaceHamster: I don't mind the corrections. If I can get feedback and become a better writer, then that is a personal benefit.

[JoshieoPandar]

Although, this thread maybe inactive for the moment. I gotta say, that was an awesome read. I'm glad writers like you are around that are able to see the best of both worlds for pros and cons. I agree with a lot of aspects you touched up on. Hoping for a compromise between the two games more on the origins side.

No such thing as enough compliments. Well done, mate.

[Lord_Saulot]

JoshieoPandar wrote...

Although, this thread maybe inactive for the moment. I gotta say, that was an awesome read. I'm glad writers like you are around that are able to see the best of both worlds for pros and cons. I agree with a lot of aspects you touched up on. Hoping for a compromise between the two games more on the origins side.

No such thing as enough compliments. Well done, mate.

Thanks!  I appreciate your taking the time to read it, and I am glad you found it worthwhile.  I also hope that DA3 will include elements from both games, and be more on the Origins side.  Of course, my final opinion of DA2 will depend on the game's patch support, as well as the type and quality of the DLC support.  But, all in all, I am just not as happy with DA2 as I was with DA:O and, while I enjoyed DA2, this franchise is not a "sure thing" for me anymore.

[yuncas]

I respect people that actully take the time and come up with coherent and in depth topics like this.

[Lord_Saulot]

yuncas wrote...

I respect people that actully take the time and come up with coherent and in depth topics like this.

Thanks!  You have my respect for taking the time to read it.  I know that people on forums don't usually want to read long threads, so I have a lot of respect for those who do.

[miklis]

That was a well written post, OP, and it points out exactly what I feel about DA2. I dont know if this has been added yet, I didnt have the time to read through seven pages, but an additional thing that bugged me was the hideous hairstyles as well as the lack of gear model variety. In my first playthrough I played a mage and was greatly dissappointed when discovering that the robes pretty much looked the same. Even the same color. I am an old D&D'er and in my opinion, clothes/gear and the look of thoose plays as big of a part as skills and talents. When I roleplay, that gear helps me define my character and increases immersion. DA:O had the same problem but with the help of some wonderfull mods, it has gotten better. I hope for the same mod builders to give DA2 a whack but it always dissappoints me when the game devs doesnt include an extensive character creator or include a variety of clothes/gear models.

[Morroian]

OK with the bumping of this thread this is the fist time I've read it and yes I read the whole OP and agree thats its a good constructive summing up of the game. I could quibble on a couple of points such as I do think the VO is an improvement on DAO not merely different but it is a matter of personal preference.

[Heldenbrand]

Have been reading this while Crysis 2 finishes Steam'ing and I wanted to give my own thoughts, especially as it relates less to the gameplay, which I feel you addressed quite well, and to the characters themselves.

I feel, similarly, that the change to characters having their own homes added a sense of realism - however I lost that same sense of realism when it came to the lengthy gaps of time. It made a lot of sense for Aveline to remain on friendly terms with Hawke, after all they had suffered together at the introduction. However, I felt that the same logic could not be applied to characters such as Fenris, especially as it applied to my mage. While the gaps in time help establish the scale of the story, it also leaves gaps in it as well. This might be filled in by potential future DLC, and I hope it will be. I would like to see a reason why in the years following Act 1, everyone remained so closely knit. The same for Act 2.

I also would like to see more interactions outside of questing. For many difficulties it was hard for me to interact regularly with characters that simply didn't fit into the party. As a rogue, I couldn't justify having Isabela in my party along with Varric. As a mage healer, I didn't find Anders particularly useful either. I would like to have more reasons to visit a character to explore their past and personalities outside of quests, as well as more opportunity to develop relationships in that way.

Also, while the Friendship/Rivalry paths are very interesting, I feel as though it may lead to some frustration in that unless I have them in my party at all times, I don't really get to experience those characters. For instance, there were many occasions where I made a choice that a character didn't necessarily agree with in some cases, but then they would later agree with me whole-heartedly. By adding and subtracting these friendship/rivalry points I ended up remaining balanced between them. For characters such as Isabela this was very noticeable, without particularly meta-gaming her personality. Whereas by contrast, Varric it was actually -hard- to gain rivalry with him. I actually wouldn't mind seeing rivalry and friendship as separate meters. I know this doesn't make much sense, however I have plenty of friends that I can compete with and establish the 'friendly rivalry'. I actually preferred the Mass Effect system where a companion was a companion, influenced by dialogue triggers as opposed to a running meter.

Also, I respect that the lack of deathblows in game was an attempt to help speed up melee combat but it took away from some of the realism as well. I know the stutter step was an issue, but I still certainly recall the first time my dual wielding warrior plunged a sword into the gut of an enemy and cut off his head with the other blade. It was dramatic, it was effective and it made me go 'woah'.

I didn't really have that moment with DAII, and in fact the outlandish exploding enemies from a dagger strike really took me out of it as well. That sort of dramatic death may be appropriate for a fireball spell, but not for an arrow or a sword. In fact, by contrast the melee combat felt a little more like an action game to me on lower difficulties as opposed to a roleplaying game. In Origins I felt as if the combat was slow, though rather realistic and in DA2 I have seen a much more action oriented pace, at the expense of an almost anime-ish. I wouldn't mind seeing a balance between the two, something that hopefully can be hammered out over time.

Also, I'm just putting this out there, but one of the fun parts in Awakening was building and managing my castle. I wouldn't mind having more to do with the Hawke Estate. Adding decorations/trophies, purchasing businesses that could make a return of investments, etc.

[Lord_Saulot]

@Miklis: Yes, I thought that some of the gear that was modelled in the game looked very good, especially some of the staves. That made it more disappointing when many of them shared the same model. But, as you said, mods will help fix this like with DA:O. This kind of thing doesn't bother me too much since modders are pretty good about adding variety.

@Morroian: Thank you! I agree that it is a matter of personal preference. I like voiceovers sometimes, but I don't want them in every game simply because it puts constraints on things like how many character choices we have, how many lines of dialogue are written, etc.

@Heldenbrand: Thank you for your comments! You raise some good points. About the time gaps, I also hope that DLC will be used to fill in some of the gaps, and improve the sense of continuity. Personally, I think that explaining how the characters stay friends during the first gap is the most important - after that and the events of Act 2, it seems that they have experienced enough together to stay friends through the second gap. You are also correct about the need for more interaction with companions - though, IMO, the problem in this game is not the amount of interaction, per se, but the fact that you never have any control over when it occurs, so you lose the feeling of being able to keep talking to them. I think that a good system would use scripted quest conversations like the ones present, but also have a set of responses in each act that you can discuss with them at your leisure. Though your post also raises another point: limited customization of your characters means they are only really designed to play one role - often, your choice of main character does too much to dictate which companions you bring with you. Good points about Friendship/Rivalry - thought it isn't perfect, I respect Bioware's attempt to develop this aspect of the game further and I am sure they will attempt to refine it in future games.

I also agree with your points about combat, though I would generally prefer the balance to be more on the Origins side than the DA2 side. And the point about the Hawke Estate is a great one. While the story of the Hawke Estate is a good development in and of itself, it would have been greatly improved by allowing us to develop it like the Vigil in Awakening, or like Crossroad Keep in NWN2 (by Obsidian).

Modifié par Lord_Saulot, 23 mars 2011 - 02:24 .