131 réponses à ce sujet

[MrTijger]

Hallows Gaze wrote...

Nicely written OP. I agree. Took the week of to play this game! Feels so strange to be so dissapointed by a Bioware game. The more I play of DA2 the more I want to go back to Origins.

Please do and report back, my wife tried that  and she started to appreciate DA2 more and more as she played through DAO.

[Tripedius]

The lack of small detail is really getting to me as well. Almost none of the npc's in the city have interaction possibilities and one of the most idiotic things is there is only one (!) guy in the docks marked as commoner. The lack of detail takes the beauty away from the game and makes for less immersion. One other example (apart from the ones in the OP) is the lack of lines when you click on your party members, while not in conversation. Normally they had a few lines now the each have one.
In short, BW cut on the details, on the fine little points that are not necessary in a game but that makes a game richs and a gameworld believable. I'll state again that DA2 isn't a bad game, but it isn't something special either. Just very average.

[shady501st]

Sorry to Trol, but WTF was that all about with Liandra's storyline!! BIOWARE - SICK!

[Tripedius]

Also as I'm going from act1 into act2 I'm missing a lot of motivation. Why am I doing this and why should I bother. Luckly I'm a mage so it isn't all that hard to make it up, but still a little more attention and love to the inbetween of act1 and 2 would have solved that, cause it really has potential.

[Bendok]

I agree 100%. The first time I did one of those side quests and returned some obscure, long-lost item to its owner only to have them say something along the lines of "Oh... there it is. Thanks." and not even start a normal dialogue sequence I was like HUH?!?! Where's my chance to be a jerk and demand more gold for its return, or where's my chance to offer to give it back to them at no charge?

I still believe Bioware is capable of making great games, but with DA2 they were way too rushed. Corners had to be cut to get this game out in such a short time.

[sandslayer76]

There are spoilers in here. Just warning ya.

I'm having trouble believing that the OP was fair at all, considering all he did was bash the game. I didn't see any positive aspects whatsoever.

I disagree, but don't shoot me for saying so. There were issues with DA2, and I'm not going to minimize that. For example, the numerous bugs and issues with the game, like how Sebastian's second quest can trap you in a room and make you crash every time you zone out of it, or how Bioware didn't have the common courtesy to test the game on a single-core machine and realize that the game couldn't save on it prior to release.

Also, the copy and paste dungeons that made me extremely bored after the first couple of times of seeing the same cave flipped a different way. And the delivery, no dialogue quests felt really cheap.

For my final criticism, but not the final issue I see with the game, would be the completely unfocused main story. You dance around the main issues in the game because they can, honestly, take up 4 hours of your time in the game. Only about an hour of the 14 hours I spent from the beginning to the end of Act 1 was spent getting maps for the expedition. Most of the game was side-quests, diluting the main story to the point that it felt unimportant except for the progression of the game.

Issues aside, however, it was a fantastic game. People don't seem to appreciate some of the more subtle aspects that make Bioware a great company. Let me first point out the music in the game. This is coming from a musician, each piece (aside from some of the repetitive, low brass dominant battle music) had this phenomenal power and emotion to it. May I remind you of Fenris's main theme, soft vocals over a lone lead violin (complemented by the rest of the string section, but dominated by that first violinist). It was heartbreaking, telling the story of a troubled elf with no home and no memories except those to remind him of vengeance against those who turned him into what he was. That was only one of many incredible pieces.

Secondly, the characters seem to be criticized a lot, but they are simply misunderstood, I believe. These people were not shallow or underdeveloped, they simply led their own lives. They were led by Hawke, but their lives did not revolve around him/her. They were, in my opinion, less forgiving and less fond of the other companions. To some, this is annoying, but I find it to be a refreshing change from origins, where everyone got along perfectly (with the exception of Morrigan). Everyone was appeased in such dramatically different ways, you cannot make a single decision in DA2 that raises friendship without raising rivalry in another companion (so long as both were there). I do not understand how corporate laziness factors into this companion depth, as it's just a different perspective. The companions carried this game, hands down. Each one had lengthy side quests that took the ENTIRE game to complete. In origins I could leave Lothering, talk to Leliana in camp and get her approval up to 90 by just talking to her over and over, plus the gifts. Then we'd kill some mercenaries, go to Denerim and find Marjolaine, then talk to her in camp. Poof! Leliana is hardened! Woo! Or Alistair, where I'll learn about his sister and then talk to her, then harden Alistair. Woo! I can have a foursome! In DA2, We gradually learn more about these characters over years. Isabela lies to you and betrays you (twice, depending on decisions and side-quests chosen), and she won't actually fall for you until late in Act 3 (after doing sidequests larger than anything Origins has to offer in every single act.) So what if you can't talk to them outside their homes? So what if you can't sleep with them whenever you please? Now those are shallow reasons to hate a character, considering the likes of Anders, Isabela and Fenris are far more complex than many of the Origins companions (Anyone else ever notice the hypocrisy that Fenris has when it comes to magisters enslaving people, yet the circle of magi enslaves mages?)

The sad thing is that DA2 succeeds spectacularly in very subtle ways. I picked up on them right away, but I don't think everyone did. Anyone else notice how the templar/mage conflict was expanded upon throughout the entire game? Hawke's mother is killed by a blood mage. Ser Alrik abuses mages for his own sadistic pleasures (Anders even mentions at one point that rape in the circle of magi is not uncommon). The game does not let you choose the comfortable moral high ground. Ever. To some, that's a turn-off, but to me, it's incredible. You have to pick between the lesser of two evils (which is open to interpretation), not the clear right or wrong. Blood mages often turn into psychopathic killers due to demon influence, but templars are prone to violence and oppression. Both sides have moderates that seem decent fellows, worthy of respect. Both sides also have extremists that would willingly murder to keep their opinions afloat. There are mages who think highly of templars, templars who think highly of mages.

In the first game, I was completely certain that templars were bad and that siding with mages was the obvious right thing to do. The writing in Origins allowed only that, as it did not focus on the templar's plight nearly so much. It focused on the mages suffering and toned down mage evildoing. After DA2, I'm not so sure. A mage murdered Hawke's mother, after all. Anders blew up a church and killed the only possibility of a bloodless settlement between Orsino and Meredith.

The uncomfortable grey morality, complemented by the incredibly sophisticated writing makes this game so very pleasurable. Every quest with a choice usually makes it difficult to do so. There are exceptions, like Meeran's quest to kill Lord Harriman (Harimann sent food and aide to Ferelden during the Blight, leading him to be hated by nobles and having them hire mercenaries to kill him), but those are few and far between.

And please, don't anyone say that the final boss wasn't awesome. Meredith started questioning her beliefs, her righteousness, after you start to overpower her. She ponders whether she is the insane one, not them, if she was doing something wrong. Having the final boss, an unrelenting, super-powered nightmare capable of animating statues vocally state her self-doubts made me smile in a sad way.

Anyway, I'm rambling now. This games has its faults. I will not diminish them. A year, or even six months, more of development would have made this a much better, much more varied game. However, the faults are outweighed by its accomplishments. Don't bother labeling me a fanboy or being "blind" in some way. I simply disagree. I'm eagerly awaiting Dragon Age 3, and I hope I get more of where DA2 succeeded.

Mix the plot progression and variety of Origins with the moral greyness, companions and unsettling social commentary of DA2 and we'll have a perfect game. Or close to it.

Modifié par sandslayer76, 17 mars 2011 - 11:31 .

[MonkaCZ]

Sir, I completely understand how you feel. I guess that since BioWare wanted to make this game easily accessible (or at least that's how it seems to me) they did some cutting. I myself liked these little things that help you get into the story more and I also miss all the talking - whether it was talking to companions, people in need or even enemies. Well, it seems those times are gone and it hurts.

But I would also like to point out some of the good things:
The quests are much more fun to me than were some (if not most of them) in DA:O. It isn't nice of me to say so, but I really didn't do all of them, because some were actually boring, yet I did all of the interesting ones (p.e.: dwarven girl willing to study at the Circle of Magi).

And the story seems a bit more personal to me than was the story in Origins. I understand DA:O story as the craddle for the world of Dragon Age. Then Dragon Age 2 would be the story of the champion of a city - meaning "We got the lore, we experienced all the stuff, did some legendary things and we got introduced into some of the problems of the world - so let's do something with it."
But I also noticed something strange about DA2 story. You are the Champion of Kirkwall - you are bound to it, you spend most of your time here and you slowly grow attached to it. But the whole gritty, dark, sad (even creepy) atmosphere actually does it's best to keep you from getting any warm feelings (which are delivered at Home).

So that's it.

Modifié par MonkaCZ, 17 mars 2011 - 11:25 .

[ev0k3r]

Very well said!

I am almost done with my first playthrough, and although at first the game felt incredible, I lost my enthusiasm as I was progressing (shouldn't it be the opposite?).

Modifié par ev0k3r, 17 mars 2011 - 11:29 .

[Aradace]

Bendok wrote...

 but with DA2 they were way too rushed. Corners had to be cut to get this game out in such a short time.

Which I fault to EA.  Which is also why Im probably done buying anything BioWare after ME3.  Anything else that looks halfway interesting after that, I'll rent.  BioWare's biggest mistake was letting EA on board IMO.  And once BW starts going under like Westwood did, they'll realize their mistake which by then, will be too late.  If anyone working at BioWare has any sense in their head, they'll have other jobs lined up that they can fall back on.  As Ive stated before, I enjoyed DA2, but because of all the bugs and a few other things Ive mentioned, it should have been rented and not bought.  Which, has me worried now for ME3.  At this point I can see them deliberately f***'ing it up just to put their final nail in the coffin.

[Pwnsaur]

All I can say to those who have mirrored my sentiments is; Thank you. I know that by name, it's just a game. But by experience, it has become so much more to me. I cannot overstate how cathartic is has been to see so many others identify with my words, and I appreciate the incredible sense of community I feel here from this post. My disappointment is exacerbated by the fact that I am going through an incredibly awful time in my life right now. I'll spare you the details and just say; I was counting on this game as an escape from what I am currently going through.

Thanks to everyone who have somehow made this negative experience a little bit more tolerable. I am happy that I could put some words to the sentiment that some of us here share. Let's hope we can make a difference...

[Pauravi]

I agree with a little bit of what the OP said, and disagree with most of it.

I agree that I would have liked to see the sidequests be more detailed. Interacting with characters who seem like individuals is part of the attraction. Even if it is just a few lines of dialogue in the pursuit of a short quest, like finding Kaitlyn's brother in Redcliffe (or maybe without any quest at all, like the Orlesian merchant girl in Denerim's market), it helps flesh out the city. The more of them, the better.

However, I disagree with other things. Those little interactions are great, but they aren't the most important thing. The most important thing are story and characters, and I felt that both were fantastic. The "motivated by coinage" situation is only temporary, and it isn't as if it is out of greed or status -- you're trying not to get tossed out of the city and back to the Darkspawn in Ferelden, or just left to starve in the street. You're just a few of many trying to get through the gates. As time goes on you become aware that tensions are building, and personal trials and tragedies pull you into the brewing conflict and give you a personal stake in it. The companions especially are well written, and are a great cast of characters whose personalities and relationships with each other (and with you) evolve over time. Isabela and Aveline, for instance, started out wanting to kill each other, and by the end were unlikely friends. I think those things are much more important than the random little stuff.

So yeah... side-quest-wise, this game doesn't have a lot of frills, and some more there would have been nice. But the real meat of it -- the story and the people who are involved in it -- was more than brilliant enough to make up for that.

[Element Zero]

It's refreshing to see a well written criticism of the game. Most to be found here are full of over the top ire and horrible grammar. Thank you, Pwnsaur, for setting the stage for a good thread. All of the simple "couldn't agree more" responses are a credit to your fair approach.

That said, I find myself partially agreeing. The interactions with the core NPC could've been much deeper. I found it strange how detached the love interests were. I thought Isabela's was very believable, especially given her history. The others I've tried, though, were pretty weak. I also miss the lengthy dialogue to be had by simple striking up a conversation with your cohorts.

I don't really agree in regard to the "lack of depth" in quests. There were about 10 of those super simplistic "delivery quests". In a game this long, they are honestly pretty forgettable. They certainly don't have enough substance to make me care.

The balance of the quests, though, I felt were outstanding. It's hard to go into "sans-spoilers", but the investigative quests, the ever changing circumstances of secondary tasks and the emotion of some of the quests all impressed me. I think this game has some of the best written quests I've ever played.

It sounds like Bethany's approach rings a bit hollow with you. That's fine. Since I'd been through two playthroughs with Carver, I was surprised and refreshed that she was so direct in her motivations. She wants to finally have what she's never had-- a stable, prosperous home. Money and status are the means to that end, and I like the honesty of her motivations.

Storywise, I thought this game was amazing. It was never supposed to be a sequel. I'm not sure where people got that idea. I'm not suggesting you went in with that conceit, but I think it lies at the heart of many fans' complaints. I did not find the story disjointed, at all. I rather like the flow of the game. I arrived penniless and willing to do just about anything to feed my family. Between the "jobs" and the "companion quests", I thought everything flowed very well. Cassandra assumed Hawke arrived in Kirkwall with an agenda, and brought about all of the changes by intent. Varrik's tale showed otherwise, and I think the flow of the game made perfect sense in light of the story's goals.

I do have my quibbles, as well. The glitches are unacceptable and inexcusable; and the repetitive dungeons are ****** poor.

Overall, I think some are remembering only DAO's good points, and forgetting many of it's issues. I just finished replaying it before beginning DA2, and I can't imagine how someone could put it head and shoulders above DA2. To each his own, though. We all like different things, and both are great games. I'd rate them almost equally, since both feature great stories. I do strongly prefer the mechanics, voiced PC and dialogue wheel of DA2, though.

You said the game was made without "love and effort". I could not disagree more. This game, to me, is another outstanding Bioware RPG. I won't go into all the reasons I love the game, since that isn't the purpose of this thread. I just wanted to present a different take on some of the points you raised.

Modifié par tallrickruush, 17 mars 2011 - 12:21 .

[Itkovian]

While I agree that the game world does not show the same amount of depth or flavour as DAO had, I personally chalk that up to the much reduced development time. Same reason that maps are re-used really.

But I do disagree about the quests in general. To focus so much on the handful of "find and return" quests is hardly being fair to the game, when the vast majority of its side quests (and main quests, naturally) show far more depth and complexity than any single quest in DAO (except the 4 main ones... which themselves should be more compared to DA2's "acts" rather than individual quests). They're just plain better designed, and generally have more compelling storytelling associated with them than any in Origins.

And of course that does not cover the companion quests, which span each act and have incredibly well done storytelling and depth to them.

Yes, there are less random NPCs with whom to talk to than DAO, but in exchange we do get far better secondary and side quests than those in DAO. Even with the re-used maps, they have done a tremendous job making sure each quest has its own level of originality and significance (very often related to the story itself).

Thank you.

Itkovian

[NedPepper]

I don't get it. The end of Act 2 is EPIC! It's a personal story, not a massive LOTR "save the world from evil" game. Why is that a bad thing? There are so many great ideas in this game. It's a political story. It's smart, witty, and that one quest before the end of Act 2, heartbreaking. Kudos to Bioware for trying something different. All games have flaws, but this is not a bad game at all. In fact, I'm really digging it. Who, while playing Origins, didn't sigh when you had to spend hours in the Fade? I played Origins six times and that mission just took me out of the game. It became boring. BUT you played it anyway, because you knew there was great stuff to look forward to. Same thing here with all of the little missions you go on. My advice? Beat the game. If you still don't like it...I dunno...I'm having a hard time understanding all this crying. Feels like Dragon Age to me.

[Systera]

I wholeheartedly agree to Pwnsaur review. Could not have written it better myself. Hopefully this review will be paid attention.

[Killa2k]

pretty accurate OP, also pretty close to my own circumstances

[Rob Sabbaggio]

I agree with the original post that the fetch quests and merchant interaction was stripped down too much - as you say, how do you even know where to take the item?

But cannot agree on the overall quality of the sidequests. Some of the longer sidequests and companion sidequests were amongst the best I have ever seen in a computer game, far better than anything in origins.

They also interacted well the main story line, which I found amazing. How different to be "just some guy" caught up in a series of events surrounding a city, rather than facing another cut and paste super villian+horde. I never expected to see a computer game come close to the Game of Thrones sort of politics and nastiness, and I am made up this one tried.

[Rockpopple]

I honestly think there must have been two different versions of Dragon Age II released to the public, and most of the people in this thread have been playing that one. Wow.

[AcidRelic]

I loved the story as a whole, combat, and companions but when it comes to the "Heart" in ALOT, not all, of the quests I'm sad.

[Liesel12]

I never had that much problem with the sidequests. It helped break up the time from your main or companion quests.

Don't get me wrong, the premise of the underlying story in DA2 is good. There is still so much potential to be built on it and if you go through with Anders plot line, it's tragic. I don't condone with what he did because he took out the balancing factor between mages and templars. But, I can understand his obsession for his version of 'doing what must be done'. (hmm, sounds like the decisions you have to make in ME2)

There are many little things I did enjoy. The one liners from the companions, classic! I picked up on references to movies and a couple of songs from the 80s.The decision points are so morally grey that it is picking the lesser of two evils, though you will disappoint one or more of your companions. But, you can't please everyone. I know on my first run through, Merrill hated my Hawke for denying her completion on the mirror. Isabela cut out on me because I asked her to return the Qunari relic. And it was all for me trying to keep a balance within the political scheme, and even Hawke's family.

Those are some good points to the game. But some of the game mechanics I find tedious.

[MrTijger]

Pwnsaur wrote...

All I can say to those who have mirrored my sentiments is; Thank you. I know that by name, it's just a game. But by experience, it has become so much more to me. I cannot overstate how cathartic is has been to see so many others identify with my words, and I appreciate the incredible sense of community I feel here from this post. My disappointment is exacerbated by the fact that I am going through an incredibly awful time in my life right now. I'll spare you the details and just say; I was counting on this game as an escape from what I am currently going through.

Thanks to everyone who have somehow made this negative experience a little bit more tolerable. I am happy that I could put some words to the sentiment that some of us here share. Let's hope we can make a difference...

Excuse me for being harsh but what you lay into this game is downright unhealthy. Go see a health care professional for your issues, no game ever is going to live up to the expectations you put onto it with the above post and no game should.

[Yriss]

sandslayer76 wrote...

There are spoilers in here. Just warning ya.

I'm having trouble believing that the OP was fair at all, considering all he did was bash the game. I didn't see any positive aspects whatsoever.

I disagree, but don't shoot me for saying so. There were issues with DA2, and I'm not going to minimize that.

... snip ...

Issues aside, however, it was a fantastic game. People don't seem to appreciate some of the more subtle aspects that make Bioware a great company. Let me first point out the music in the game.

... snip ...

Secondly, the characters seem to be criticized a lot, but they are simply misunderstood, I believe. These people were not shallow or underdeveloped, they simply led their own lives. They were led by Hawke, but their lives did not revolve around him/her. They were, in my opinion, less forgiving and less fond of the other companions. To some, this is annoying, but I find it to be a refreshing change from origins, where everyone got along perfectly (with the exception of Morrigan).

... snip ...

The sad thing is that DA2 succeeds spectacularly in very subtle ways. I picked up on them right away, but I don't think everyone did. Anyone else notice how the templar/mage conflict was expanded upon throughout the entire game? Hawke's mother is killed by a blood mage. Ser Alrik abuses mages for his own sadistic pleasures (Anders even mentions at one point that rape in the circle of magi is not uncommon). The game does not let you choose the comfortable moral high ground. Ever.

... snip ...

The uncomfortable grey morality, complemented by the incredibly sophisticated writing makes this game so very pleasurable. Every quest with a choice usually makes it difficult to do so.

... snip ...

And please, don't anyone say that the final boss wasn't awesome. Meredith started questioning her beliefs, her righteousness, after you start to overpower her.

... snip ...

Anyway, I'm rambling now. This games has its faults. I will not diminish them. A year, or even six months, more of development would have made this a much better, much more varied game. However, the faults are outweighed by its accomplishments. Don't bother labeling me a fanboy or being "blind" in some way. I simply disagree. I'm eagerly awaiting Dragon Age 3, and I hope I get more of where DA2 succeeded.

Mix the plot progression and variety of Origins with the moral greyness, companions and unsettling social commentary of DA2 and we'll have a perfect game. Or close to it.

I'm speechless because you've expressed everything I thought of about this game. Nice.

Modifié par Yriss, 17 mars 2011 - 05:01 .

[Ylvena]

nedpepper wrote...

I don't get it. The end of Act 2 is EPIC! It's a personal story, not a massive LOTR "save the world from evil" game. Why is that a bad thing?

It's not a bad thing, and it's great that you love the game, but did you actually read the OP? Here is what he wrote :  "Maybe we don't need to be fighting against the end-of-the-world everytime, but I feel that the motivations in DA2 are.... like the rest of the game... shallow "

I think DA 2 had lots of promise for this great story,  and i do think the story in it self is not the problem. For me it rushes you through everything showing you tidbits of what could have been great if they built on it abit more. Kirkwall couldhave been much more interesting, and I'm going to be unpopular now, but
comparing to the city of Athkatla from BG 2 as an eksample, this city felt huge! because of all the areas that looked very different from one area to another. You had quests that unlocked for the different classes.
You could get random quests from people in the different inn's or back alleys etc.. It just felt very alive. Coupled with the fact you hardly talk to anyone in Kirkwall, and quests to talk to you companions a few times every few years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athkatla

Not wanting this to be anything like BG 2 at all, its just an eksample.

Kirkwall feels pretty much dead to me, and at night nothing really exiting happens. If i was citizen in a place like Kirkwall, i would die of boredom. Give me the circle any day.

This game is like getting an appatizer, but no main course. it leaves you hungry for DLC i guess. And we are living in the days of " buy this ekstra quest, and you will have more to do".
But everyone has different wants and opinions, and they are all entitled to them. And i dont hate the game, im just kind of indifferent. Which is abit surprising for me personally.

I will probably be more careful before buying Bioware games in the future, but im still a fan.

Modifié par Ylvena, 17 mars 2011 - 05:05 .

[Ylvena]

dp

Modifié par Ylvena, 17 mars 2011 - 05:07 .

[The Last Roman]

I agree with you on a lot of your points, but I disagree that finding "status and coin" isn't a "heroic" enough reason to compel one towards adventure. If my family lost everything, was stuck in a foreign hostile land, and living in a dirty shack, you can bet my motivation would be to change that and I would hardly consider it to not be "noble".