179 réponses à ce sujet

[Kyela684]

GuyDeVere wrote...

I kept covering for the mages all the way through cause I thought, "damn how far do you go when pushed too hard? They aren't all blood mage idiots." But then when I'm saving the day the first chanter for no good reason goes wig-a-tron and uses blood magic??!!! So I reloaded and smoked the dress wearing pansies. It's pretty fun hopping around with a rogue 2 hit killing everyone.

I was going to side with the templars, anyway. And murder Anders. I'm just sad that I can't stab him dead in the FACE for what he did. I liked that old lady!
I defended the mages all the way through the game, too, but enough's enough. If there can be no peace, than what are we left with; the Imperium or the Qunari? Blood magic rampant or mages bound and chained? If there can be no compromise, then get in line for your shackles.

[Danjaru]

I think Biowares intention was more along the lines of showing how Kirkwall mages are and not mages in general. Kirkwall allowed for tranquility even after you completed your harrowing, mages were pretty but imprisoned and slaves to a degree. They were oppressed and many ended up as abominations due to fear and seeking a way out, or blood magic cause they went along the lines of "Templars fear blood magic, so why not use what they fear?".

Templars in Ferelden were much more lenient which lead to mages being much more logical and have much less to be afraid of. Sure they were oppressed but they didn't live in constant fear and the chains around them weren't nearly as tight.

Kirkwall mages were backed into a corner, and when mages try to claw out and remove common sense, things turn disastrous, which is the case of Kirkwall. So with someone like Thrask who's sympathetic to mages as Knight Commander, there most likely wouldn't be as many crazy mages.

The monster was created by the oppressive templars and their actions are counter-productive. (then there were dumb ****s like the necromancer who killed your mother, but there are always the especially crazy)

Modifié par Danjaru, 17 mars 2011 - 01:04 .

[vigna]

The game doesn't give you the option of making decent decisions because it doesn't want to. It wants you to suffer...or someone does.

Do you throw away every once of self respect you have by siding with Isabella in her greedy self serving thievery?

Do you help Merrill even though she can't see the danger she is in, and know full well you'll end up killing her or someone else? Pain in this is a given?

Do you help Fenris just slaughter everyone from his past?

Do you help Sebastian do what is right for his people or himself? both solutions are apparently right and wrong.

Anders?...'nuff said.

The Mages all appear to be blood mages in hiding that lean towards the evil aspects of blood magic. hell, even merrill is a blood mage.

The knight Commander is a power mad..you know what.

The arishok cannot be reasoned with as he is a force of nature.


There appear to be no winning scenarios, and just sadness in this game.

[Kyela684]

Deylar wrote...

Templars= Pricks who have a stick up their ass and sit on a big giant high horse plus that stick makes them just a little power hungry as well

Mages= Pussified lunatics striving for power

Agreed. It's definately a choice between sleeping on a bed of putrid dead rats or leaning against a pile of halla manure, alright.

[OmegaBlue0231]

errant_knight wrote...

Yep, if Meredith had been had way resonable instead of a Stalin wannabe, I would totally have sided with the templars.

Agreed, if she had wanted to just kill Anders and search the circle for blood mages I'd be first in line to help.

[Pileyourbodies]

Put the mages on probation, have to check in with templars if they don't its assumed they're possessed so you hunt them down. Regulate their travel and keep good records and you're all set.

[Kyela684]

vigna wrote...

The game doesn't give you the option of making decent decisions because it doesn't want to. It wants you to suffer...or someone does.

Do you throw away every once of self respect you have by siding with Isabella in her greedy self serving thievery?

Do you help Merrill even though she can't see the danger she is in, and know full well you'll end up killing her or someone else? Pain in this is a given?

Do you help Fenris just slaughter everyone from his past?

Do you help Sebastian do what is right for his people or himself? both solutions are apparently right and wrong.

Anders?...'nuff said.

The Mages all appear to be blood mages in hiding that lean towards the evil aspects of blood magic. hell, even merrill is a blood mage.

The knight Commander is a power mad..you know what.

The arishok cannot be reasoned with as he is a force of nature.


There appear to be no winning scenarios, and just sadness in this game.

You something? I think you're right. But I think Bioware wanted to show that. The stories we have of legendary people... their lives sucked! Sucked worse than a top-of-line Swedish vaccum cleaner. But nobody ever remembers that part. I think, I think that's the underlying point of this whole game. You buy it thinking, "gleeeberries! Another chance to be the Hero! Beloved by all, and... wait, what? People hate me. I'm doing the right thing, but, it's like fighting a dragon with a shiny rock!"

[Icy Magebane]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

Put the mages on probation, have to check in with templars if they don't its assumed they're possessed so you hunt them down. Regulate their travel and keep good records and you're all set.

And here I was about to call you an extremist... yeah okay, as long as there's at least some degree of mercy in your approach, then that's fine.  That stuff about zero tolerance made it seem like mages should be killed the moment they show signs.

I'm going to agree that regulation is a good option, since there is a lot of potential for mages to benefit society.  They don't need to be executed, and the Kirkwall templars were just completely out of control.  They made mages tranquil over simple disagreements, and abused them when they were more compliant! (there's one scumbag whose name I can't recall that comes to mind... a bald guy with a goatee)

The Rite of Annullment is the only option sometimes, but only as a last resort, IMO.  Not all mages are monsters, etc...

[vigna]

Kyela684 wrote...

.

You something? I think you're right. But I think Bioware wanted to show that. The stories we have of legendary people... their lives sucked! Sucked worse than a top-of-line Swedish vaccum cleaner. But nobody ever remembers that part. I think, I think that's the underlying point of this whole game. You buy it thinking, "gleeeberries! Another chance to be the Hero! Beloved by all, and... wait, what? People hate me. I'm doing the right thing, but, it's like fighting a dragon with a shiny rock!"

Dragon Age II is like the "Kobayashi Maru'" of video games.

[Vandicus]

Kyela684 wrote...

vigna wrote...

The game doesn't give you the option of making decent decisions because it doesn't want to. It wants you to suffer...or someone does.

Do you throw away every once of self respect you have by siding with Isabella in her greedy self serving thievery?

Do you help Merrill even though she can't see the danger she is in, and know full well you'll end up killing her or someone else? Pain in this is a given?

Do you help Fenris just slaughter everyone from his past?

Do you help Sebastian do what is right for his people or himself? both solutions are apparently right and wrong.

Anders?...'nuff said.

The Mages all appear to be blood mages in hiding that lean towards the evil aspects of blood magic. hell, even merrill is a blood mage.

The knight Commander is a power mad..you know what.

The arishok cannot be reasoned with as he is a force of nature.


There appear to be no winning scenarios, and just sadness in this game.

You something? I think you're right. But I think Bioware wanted to show that. The stories we have of legendary people... their lives sucked! Sucked worse than a top-of-line Swedish vaccum cleaner. But nobody ever remembers that part. I think, I think that's the underlying point of this whole game. You buy it thinking, "gleeeberries! Another chance to be the Hero! Beloved by all, and... wait, what? People hate me. I'm doing the right thing, but, it's like fighting a dragon with a shiny rock!"

The game was designed to be a tragedy from a literary standpoint. Thedas is a horrible horrible place to live in, and everyone important has really sucky lives in their backstories. Maric, Cailan, Loghain. Dragon Age Origins is the exception to the world, being a generic fantasy hero saves the day tale with it being possible for everything to be done "right" to eliminate the vast majority of deaths and create propserity. The deaths of important members of Hawke's family and the shocking Anders moment (especially if Hawke has been trying for peace and/or friends/romancing Anders) create the emotions central to tragedies. All in all, best tragedy story ever.

[Lumikki]

Both Mages and Templars sucked in the DA2 story. Can't just live like normal people, have to be paranoid idiots or power hunger idiots.

Modifié par Lumikki, 17 mars 2011 - 01:19 .

[Arhengard]

I played through as a Mage Hawke and agree with the above posters. I felt like the only decent mage in the game. Even two of my companions turned out to be lunatics. I sided with the mages only because I was one and just kept thinking ' They'll have to kill me also in the annulment because I'm an apostate.' That was the only way I could justify to myself for siding with what seemed to be a city sized Cabal of Blood Mages. I felt a bit of satisfaction when the Knight Commander indeed turned out to be possessed as well. If she would have just stayed a Zealot I would not have felt good about the ending. Actually at one point I thought 'Too bad that bomb didn't just raze this whole damn city, they're all freaking lunatics! I was glad they made it that the Champion just walked away never to be seen again. No one would want to stay in that city after all that. Actually if I could have sided with any faction it would have been the Qunari. They knew exactly how bad it was there and actually tried take over to put an end to it all.

[TexasToast712]

errant_knight wrote...

Dangerfoot wrote...

I really wish there had been more than 3-5 total mages in the entire game that didn't turn to blood magic or become abominations.

...or kill a bunch of innocent people.

Yep. It leaves me wondering which lore is true, Origins, or DA2, because while I sympathized greatly with mages in Ferelden, while still understanding the templar position, here I just wanted to kill them all, except Cullen and Thrask.

I was hoping for the chance to kill Cullen all throughout the game until he redeemed himself standing against Meredith and sparing the surrended mages. Brought a smile to my face to see Cullen realise that not every mage is crazy even if 90% of the Kirkwall circle was. The Kirkwall circle was clearly indeed harboring blood mages and/or their mages were too weak willed to resist blood magic and demonic possession which justifies the right of Annulment.

Modifié par TexasToast712, 17 mars 2011 - 01:29 .

[tenshi_no_hone]

At least the Mass Effect, KOTOR and Jade Empire worlds can give you a second of "this would be an awesome place to visit when it's settled down a little"

Thedas sucks. For everyone. All the time.

You set one foot there and before you know it you've been enslaved by Tevinter slavers, given the taint by some creepy dude for "research purposes," had your memories and several parts of your body removed by some mages, and you'll be killed by templars because they think you're possessed. And by then you probably are.

Just don't bring anyone with you. At least the people you meet there might live longer than five minutes. Embrace the inevitable and join the Qun, they'll give you a job and then gut you a moment later because a mage decided to honour you by talking to you.

It's a great game and world. Just never a happy one. At least there's always sexy pirate captains and hairy chested dwarves to cheer you up before you and everyone you love is brutally murdered. Always an upside!

Modifié par tenshi_no_hone, 17 mars 2011 - 01:23 .

[errant_knight]

tenshi_no_hone wrote...

At least the Mass Effect, KOTOR and Jade Empire worlds can give you a second of "this would be an awesome place to visit when it's settled down a little"

Thedas sucks. For everyone. All the time.

You set one foot there and before you know it you've been enslaved by Tevinter slavers, given the taint by some creepy dude for "research purposes," had your memories and several parts of your body removed by some mages, and you'll be killed by templars because they think you're possessed. And by then you probably are.

Just don't bring anyone with you. At least the people you meet there might live longer than five minutes. Embrace the inevitable and join the Qun, they'll give you a job and then gut you a moment later because a mage decided to honour you by talking to you.

It's a great game and world. Just never a happy one. At least there's always sexy pirate captains and hairy chested dwarves to cheer you up before you and everyone you love is brutally murdered. Always an upside!

Actually, Ferelden is looking pretty damn good. I know I wanted to go back there, and as soon as possible.

[Pileyourbodies]

Yeah other than the whole Blight thing that happened 6 years ago.

Also you can get meredith to basically cancel the rite of annulment when she agrees to spare some mages.

[tenshi_no_hone]

I'm still playing the game - I love it! Just nice to know that Dragon Age is as yet incapable of reaching through my screen and pulling my heart out like Fenris. Becasue if any game did, it would be Dragon Age!

[errant_knight]

Kyela684 wrote...

You something? I think you're right. But I think Bioware wanted to show that. The stories we have of legendary people... their lives sucked! Sucked worse than a top-of-line Swedish vaccum cleaner. But nobody ever remembers that part. I think, I think that's the underlying point of this whole game. You buy it thinking, "gleeeberries! Another chance to be the Hero! Beloved by all, and... wait, what? People hate me. I'm doing the right thing, but, it's like fighting a dragon with a shiny rock!"

LOL. All too true, and not at all the way I want to spend my time. I can think of many miserable things I could do instead, some of which might actually make the world a slightly better place. The  real one, I mean.
Sidenote: 'gleeberries' is my new favorite word.

Modifié par errant_knight, 17 mars 2011 - 01:32 .

[errant_knight]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

Yeah other than the whole Blight thing that happened 6 years ago.

Also you can get meredith to basically cancel the rite of annulment when she agrees to spare some mages.

Kirkwall makes the blight seem happy.

[tenshi_no_hone]

It's like they get two mass slaughters for the price of one!

[dgcatanisiri]

The thing is, in DAO, our impression is that the templars are wrong to oppress the mages. So in DA2, the pendulum is swung so far in the templars favor to counter that initial impression, but in doing so, it provides no one with a good leg to stand on - which is what they were going for. No one is innocent in the final count, and no one alone is to blame. It's a bad situation, pushed into being a worse one, and ultimately, no one is right and you the hero have to just pick a side as the ground cracks open under your feet. Is it right? Is it wrong? Those questions are for history to decide - history that has yet to be written.

[errant_knight]

That's fine in theory. The question is how to avoid the feeling that one might as well just kill one's self now and avoid some grief.

[jjbens]

theres not one good mage in the game besides your sister.

[Deylar]

Kyela684 wrote...
Agreed. It's definately a choice between sleeping on a bed of putrid dead rats or leaning against a pile of halla manure, alright.

But in the end doesn't matter.

Because you choose one and realize you didn't actually really have to choose.

[Noatz]

I can sypathise strongly with the OP and some of the responses here.

I began my playthrough as a mage-Hawke basing his attitude to mages mostly on what we were told about his father - ie an apostate but one determined not to bring attention to themselves or cause collateral harm. As such I went around trying to be supportive of mages where possible especially when you get told how terrible the Kirkwall circle is for mages and how Meredith is ridiculously draconian soon after you arrive. But my Hawke didn't approve of blood magic (which is something of a hypocrisy as he ended up in a relationship with Merril but unfortunately the game didn't give you any option to talk her out of blood magic at this stage.)

But by the time of the final confontation I was on the brink of siding with the templars anyway. The sheer amount of insane blood mages you encounter really makes you wonder if they are all beyond saving, and that you are the only who isn't turning to blood magic and demons (and no I didn't have blood magic specialisation ).

Then your mother is killed by an insane blood mage.

Then Merril ends up killing Marethari and her whole clan - some keeper she turned out to be. And this is one of your companions.

Then Anders blows up the chantry, murdering Elthina who had been nothing but kind and reasonable throughout the game. At this point I felt the argument "not every mage is bad" had been used a few too many times to remain entirely credible. But I still sided with the mages because Orsino was just as vocal in condemning Anders as everyone else and was a good mage and a voice of reason, making Meredith's rite of annulment insane. I killed Anders, despite supporting him throughout the game in his views. Some things theres just no excusing.

What really pissed me off is when defending the mages from the Templar assault is Orsino suddenly becoming another insane blood mage and turning himself into waaagh-blob-monster-from-hell. There wasn't even a proper reason for doing it; the champion was with him and the waves of templars were getting repulsed. When does "I'll turn myself into a mindless blob-monster incapable of distinguishing friend from foe" become a viable option in this situation? While fighting my way out (through more insane blood mages and abominations mainly) I was half hoping for an option to just tell Meredith she was damn well right all along, but then she turned out to be bat**** insane as well.

I think the overall moral of this story is - sometimes the only options you have are bad ones. And that the Arishok was right the whole time.