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[Deylar]

The blob monster Orsino turned into, left me sick to my stomach.

Usually I am drinking some good old tea and eating some chips while playing games. And here while I was munching away he had to turn into that. I was like two seconds from hacking.

[apantoliani]

My mage Hawke put it best, said something along the lines of "Will I ever meet a normal mage?" and I think "You're the first normal mage I've met all week."

[Vukodlak]

I would point out that the whole argument of condeming mages for blood magic only works on the faulty logic there is anything inherrantly evil about blood magic.

Pileyourbodies wrote...

In practice i agree with the rite
of annulment. had the Warden not been there the whole circle was lost.
Lets count the number of mages alive, there are 5 in that first room and
then there is the tranquil shop keeper theres 1 guy in a cupboard and
irving. so 8 people out of the entire tower. So yes the right of
annulment is valid in that situation.

I count more then 8 mages, there are ninteen or twenty mages in this picture alone and more can be seen as the scene continues on. Video games use represntive population when walking around. it be silly to show the thousands of people who live in Denerim just as it be silly to show the hundreds of people who live in the tower.

jjbens wrote...

if you side with the mages there leader uses blood magic for no reason then he try to kill you but when you fight the night captain the templars step in to help stop her i didnt see any mage help when there leader was trying to eat me,

He and all the mages under his care are going to be exterimianted by Templars isn't a reason? Ten years of continingly harsher oppression from the Templars isn't a reason. Being treated as a criminal and a monster before you've done anything wrong isn't a reason?

[skippy1776]

errant_knight wrote...

Yep, if Meredith had been had way resonable instead of a Stalin wannabe, I would totally have sided with the templars.

tru dat!

[Vukodlak]

A curious thought has entered my head, Meredith had the idol turned into a sword and it slowly drove her mad, but was that the extent of its effects? Just a piece of the idol was enough to cause havok in the old mansion and even effected Varric without coming into physical contact.

Could the idol have been influencing numerous people in the Gallows? could the idol have been affecting certain mages like it did her?

Modifié par Vukodlak, 17 mars 2011 - 03:30 .

[Noatz]

Vukodlak wrote...

jjbens wrote...

if you side with the mages there leader uses blood magic for no reason then he try to kill you but when you fight the night captain the templars step in to help stop her i didnt see any mage help when there leader was trying to eat me,

He and all the mages under his care are going to be exterimianted by Templars isn't a reason? Ten years of continingly harsher oppression from the Templars isn't a reason. Being treated as a criminal and a monster before you've done anything wrong isn't a reason?

I think the point is at this stage it does not come across as a justified or indeed logical course of action for him to take (if turning yourself into a mindless blob-monster could ever be considered such). And there is no real precedent for it (unlike with Anders) since up until then Orsino has been - while arguing fiercely with Meredith to improve mage rights - also trying to present a face of moderation.

[Vukodlak]

Noatz wrote...

Vukodlak wrote...

jjbens wrote...

if you side with the mages there leader uses blood magic for no reason then he try to kill you but when you fight the night captain the templars step in to help stop her i didnt see any mage help when there leader was trying to eat me,

He and all the mages under his care are going to be exterimianted by Templars isn't a reason? Ten years of continingly harsher oppression from the Templars isn't a reason. Being treated as a criminal and a monster before you've done anything wrong isn't a reason?

I think the point is at this stage it does not come across as a justified or indeed logical course of action for him to take (if turning yourself into a mindless blob-monster could ever be considered such). And there is no real precedent for it (unlike with Anders) since up until then Orsino has been - while arguing fiercely with Meredith to improve mage rights - also trying to present a face of moderation.

I return to my other thought that the idol could have been driving people mad on both sides.
Though I suspect the real reason behind it is bioware felt they needed there to be some reason to justify siding with Meredith, as lets face it without Orsano's heel faced turn. The deck is heavily stacked against the templars in terms of the right thing to do.

Modifié par Vukodlak, 17 mars 2011 - 03:39 .

[Nimander]

Vukodlak wrote...Could the idol have been influencing numerous people in the Gallows? could the idol have been affecting certain mages like it did her?

Actually, the guards were mostly insane due to eating Lyrium, though the idol could have had some effect.  But it doesn't need to have.  Remember, the mages were under huge stress, and afraid for their lives in a place where the veil between the world and the Fade is really, really thin.  This stress and fear, coupled with demons having an easier time whispering to them means it isn't surprising there were as many corrupt mages as there were, though as someone said above, you really don't see many good mages 'cause they aren't part of the story, you fight the bad ones.

Honestly, there shouldn't be a Circle in Kirkwall at ALL.  They should be housed outside the city in the countryside, away from where the Veil is 'thin'.

[Vukodlak]

Nimander wrote...

Vukodlak wrote...Could the idol have been influencing numerous people in the Gallows? could the idol have been affecting certain mages like it did her?

Actually, the guards were mostly insane due to eating Lyrium, though the idol could have had some effect.  But it doesn't need to have.  Remember, the mages were under huge stress, and afraid for their lives in a place where the veil between the world and the Fade is really, really thin.  This stress and fear, coupled with demons having an easier time whispering to them means it isn't surprising there were as many corrupt mages as there were, though as someone said above, you really don't see many good mages 'cause they aren't part of the story, you fight the bad ones.

Honestly, there shouldn't be a Circle in Kirkwall at ALL.  They should be housed outside the city in the countryside, away from where the Veil is 'thin'.

The Havok I was speaking of was when you return to the mansion in ACT 3. What with the haunting and Varric getting obessed over the last piece of the idol without even touching it. From that I get the theory the idol could have been poisoning more then the Knight Commander.

I imagine that all the Circles are built or housed in a fortress  where the veil is thin.  The Harrowing is probably easier where the veil is thin as is identifying mages vulnerable to possession. The Veil is thin in Ferelden Circle too. It may be that the veil is thin where ever a circle operates symply because you have a hundred or more mages in one place practicing magic.

Modifié par Vukodlak, 17 mars 2011 - 03:52 .

[Noatz]

Vukodlak wrote...

I return to my other thought that the idol could have been driving people mad on both sides.
Though I suspect the real reason behind it is bioware felt they needed there to be some reason to justify siding with Meredith, as lets face it without Orsano's heel faced turn. The deck is heavily stacked against the templars in terms of the right thing to do.

Its possible, but the game gives absolutely no indication that this is the case. Besides I think the idol affects Dwarves much more readily than humans or elves - evidence: during Varric's quest he hears the song/voices emanating from the shard of the idol left in Bartrand's house whereas Hawke does not. He is also slightly frenzied in a Gollum sort of way about possessing it while Hawke appears unaffected. Meredith presumably went crazy from possessing the entire idol for 6 years - none of the other templars seemed affected (even ones who were ideologically close to her like Cullen).

And the problem with using Orsino's eleventh hour lunacy as justification to support the templar cause is that by the time he has done it you have already made your choice. Not that I feel siding with the templars is exactly a bad option considering the sheer amount of bad-mage induced crap that has screwed over Hawke and the city by that point (see my earlier post).

[Noatz]

Modifié par Noatz, 17 mars 2011 - 03:52 .

[Vukodlak]

Just as a mage is more vulnerable to demons they may be more vulnerable to the idol, and it may only effect certain people. It certainly sounds like a demon possessed object.

*What happened with Merill, in my game only the keeper died, but the rest of the clan was fine.*
I'm curious as to where my converstaions went right as opposed to where yours went drastically wrong.

Modifié par Vukodlak, 17 mars 2011 - 03:58 .

[Noatz]

Vukodlak wrote...

Just as a mage is more vulnerable to demons they may be more vulnerable to the idol, and it may only effect certain people. It certainly sounds like a demon possessed object.

I think its just incredibly pure lyrium, which dwarves can hear singing faintly under normal circumstances (its how they mine it afaik).

edit: in my game the rest of her clan attacked me as I left Pride's End after the Keeper/Pride Demon battle. Could find no option to talk them round.

Modifié par Noatz, 17 mars 2011 - 04:03 .

[Vukodlak]

Noatz wrote...

Vukodlak wrote...

Just as a mage is more vulnerable to demons they may be more vulnerable to the idol, and it may only effect certain people. It certainly sounds like a demon possessed object.

I think its just incredibly pure lyrium, which dwarves can hear singing faintly under normal circumstances (its how they mine it afaik).

edit: in my game the rest of her clan attacked me as I left Pride's End after the Keeper/Pride Demon battle. Could find no option to talk them round.

Ah that's what happend, I took responsibility for her and they felt that was sufficient. As I understand the dialog wheel how many times you've picked diplomatic/charming/direct in past conversations and effect availible dialog in future conversations.

[LobselVith8]

jjbens wrote...

Almost everything in dragon age 2 made me hate the mages.

What about Merrill? 

[Pileyourbodies]

Shes a blood mage that consorts with demons and unless you take personal responsibility for her crimes then you must slaughter the entire dalish clan. Shes cute and naive but shes not actually likable beyond that fact.

[DiablosShadows]

Well I dont hate mages I didnt meet any evil mage in all DA2 except for that one that kills Hawkes mother thats the only one.

[Pileyourbodies]

What about Grace? What about Decimus(The guy with grace)? What about the Exotic wonder? What about the blood ragers?

[LobselVith8]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

Shes a blood mage that consorts with demons and unless you take personal responsibility for her crimes then you must slaughter the entire dalish clan. Shes cute and naive but shes not actually likable beyond that fact.

She's an elven mage who wanted to restore a piece of her people's culture that took the life of two of her friends, and she was willing to risk her own life for the slim possibility that she could repair the Eluvian. I found her plenty likable, personally.

[DiablosShadows]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

What about Grace? What about Decimus(The guy with grace)? What about the Exotic wonder? What about the blood ragers?

What makes them Evil? Just cuz they use Blood Magic? lol Thats not Evil its just a type of magic.

[Pileyourbodies]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Pileyourbodies wrote...

Shes a blood mage that consorts with demons and unless you take personal responsibility for her crimes then you must slaughter the entire dalish clan. Shes cute and naive but shes not actually likable beyond that fact.

She's an elven mage who wanted to restore a piece of her people's culture that took the life of two of her friends, and she was willing to risk her own life for the slim possibility that she could repair the Eluvian. I found her plenty likable, personally.

She has a very likable personality. She does not do actions that are likable. Shes not an Elven mage she is a blood mage. Even the Dalish ban blood magic. She was willing to risk her life and her entire clans life to fix a mirror. No matter what you do she completly destroys that clans culture as she is banned and their keeper is dead so that clans whole history is gone.


Diablo Grace kills thrask who is trying to fix the situation and she trys to kill your sister/brother just because they're related to you. The bloodragers enthrall everyone and use them to commit crimes and the exotic wonder is working with the dude that kills your mom and she trys to dominate your mind and make you kill yourself. Pay more attention to the game. I didn't go and mention every blood mage that you fight just the ones overtly evil.

Modifié par Pileyourbodies, 17 mars 2011 - 04:44 .

[LobselVith8]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

She has a very likable personality. She does not do actions that are likable. Shes not an Elven mage she is a blood mage. Even the Dalish ban blood magic. She was willing to risk her life and her entire clans life to fix a mirror. No matter what you do she completly destroys that clans culture as she is banned and their keeper is dead so that clans whole history is gone.

Not if she shared it with the new First.

Pileyourbodies wrote...

Diablo Grace kills thrask who is trying to fix the situation and she trys to kill your sister/brother just because they're related to you. The bloodragers enthrall everyone and use them to commit crimes and the exotic wonder is working with the dude that kills your mom and she trys to dominate your mind and make you kill yourself. Pay more attention to the game. I didn't go and mention every blood mage that you fight just the ones overtly evil.

There are plenty of good and bad mages and templars in the story. I applaud the creators for not giving anyone a black or white hat in this game and making the storyline complex by giving both groups deep flaws and deeply flawed characters.

[sylvanaerie]

That one guy Huon slaughters his wife like a sacrificial goat to steal 'the magic inside her' then proceeds to use her blood/life force to fuel his attack on you. Danarius is a blood mage who drained a little boy just to impress some people at a party.
Even a well intentioned blood mage (like Merrill) has her flaws in that she is consumed with pride to the point she cannot listen to reason. And hmm what type of demon taught her blood magic?...a pride demon.
Hubris seems to be a huge issue with most mages. Even Anders has it to the point he won't listen to reason either. That's why he lies to Hawke because he knows what he plans is wrong and he doesn't wnat him/her talking him out of doing what he is going to do.

Lobsell, at that point, Merrill cannot go back. Her clan tells you they will kill her if she does (and they back this up in game if you go back with her in your party).  So yes, she just pissed away all their history (whatever Hahren Paivel doesn't know)

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 17 mars 2011 - 04:50 .

[Pileyourbodies]

She shared what merril learned in what 18-20 years or so with the new first in just 3?

There are not plenty of Mages. Name a mage that is good please. Bethany is the only one i can name.

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

Even being a pro-mage and a mage-player as I am, I can't deny that mages in DA2 are just crazy dicks. I thought Orsino was't one, but then.. and Meredith actually *was* a pretty reasonable woman. She still used a cursed item for power, though. I think the whole theme of the game is about "power corrupts" thing, regardless of being a simple basher, a virtous templar or a wizard.

However, I don't mind mages being selfish dicks. If I had power like that, I would be one too. You can always forget Gandalf ways and just go Reistlin's snarky spellcaster way, it's fun. Chantry blows up anyway, so why would you want be diplomatic and wise wizard? It does't pay off, exept maybe Fenris crying on your shoulder.