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[LobselVith8]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

She shared what merril learned in what 18-20 years or so with the new first in just 3?

There are not plenty of Mages. Name a mage that is good please. Bethany is the only one i can name.

I don't think the Orlesian mage was bad; he simply wanted to experience life. Thrask's daughter didn't seem evil to me, simply scared of the men trying to grab her so they could sell her. The mages who are fighting for their lives against the templars didn't seem evil to me as my apostate Hawke ran for the docks, and none of them used blood magic. The mages who flee Orsino as he turns into a Harvester didn't seem evil to me, simply scared out of their minds. I'd argue the Keeper and Merrill weren't evil and were good. Feynriel seemed like a good kid.

[Pileyourbodies]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't think the Orlesian mage was bad; he simply wanted to experience life. Thrask's daughter didn't seem evil to me, simply scared of the men trying to grab her so they could sell her. The mages who are fighting for their lives against the templars didn't seem evil to me as my apostate Hawke ran for the docks, and none of them used blood magic. The mages who flee Orsino as he turns into a Harvester didn't seem evil to me, simply scared out of their minds. I'd argue the Keeper and Merrill weren't evil and were good. Feynriel seemed like a good kid.

That is an excellent point with the Orlesian guy, however he still claimed to use blood magic and thus should have been executed. 
Thrasks daughter still accepted a deal with a demon, maybe not evil but she still went bad.
The mages who were fighting against the templar could have accepted merediths terms of a search, thats all she asked that the mages be searched. 
Maybe you missed the dozens of demons that spawn during that fight? Those all had to be summoned up by a mage, any mage that makes a deal with a demon is pretty evil in my mind.
True enough on the ones that ran from Orsino. 
Merril is evil by my definition as she makes deals with demons.
Merethani is good and quite selfless and is an exception to the rule
Feynriel would have entered a deal with a demon if not for Hawke making him evil.

[sylvanaerie]

Just because they aren't evil incarnate doesn't mean they aren't a danger to others as well as themselves. I saw plenty of blood magic being used in my Hawke's battle to get to the docks. Not sure what game you were playing but I encountered 2 blood mage fights with a ton of abominations/demons all over the place from the torn Veil.
Marethari tells you Feynriel is a danger to everyone if he becomes an abomination, that a dreamer abomination would be allmost unstoppable and it would be best if you can't free him to kill him in the Fade, making him a tranquil.
Not being evil doesn't mean you can't be a danger to others. Do others' freedoms end because you want to be free to do as you please? That's the mentality of criminals.

[LobselVith8]

He should be executed because he wanted to get laid? I don't think we're going to reach a consensus here.

[DiablosShadows]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Pileyourbodies wrote...

Shes a blood mage that consorts with demons and unless you take personal responsibility for her crimes then you must slaughter the entire dalish clan. Shes cute and naive but shes not actually likable beyond that fact.

She's an elven mage who wanted to restore a piece of her people's culture that took the life of two of her friends, and she was willing to risk her own life for the slim possibility that she could repair the Eluvian. I found her plenty likable, personally.

She has a very likable personality. She does not do actions that are likable. Shes not an Elven mage she is a blood mage. Even the Dalish ban blood magic. She was willing to risk her life and her entire clans life to fix a mirror. No matter what you do she completly destroys that clans culture as she is banned and their keeper is dead so that clans whole history is gone.


Diablo Grace kills thrask who is trying to fix the situation and she trys to kill your sister/brother just because they're related to you. The bloodragers enthrall everyone and use them to commit crimes and the exotic wonder is working with the dude that kills your mom and she trys to dominate your mind and make you kill yourself. Pay more attention to the game. I didn't go and mention every blood mage that you fight just the ones overtly evil.

Grace is not evil You killed someone important to her now she wants to return the favor I would of done the samething does that make me evil? No.As for the Exotic Wonder she is just using self defence seeing how 4 ppl enter her room fully armed.

[Pileyourbodies]

LobselVith8 wrote...

He should be executed because he wanted to get laid? I don't think we're going to reach a consensus here.

No he should have been executed because he claimed  to be Maleficarum, sorry but being that means you get executed and claiming to be one makes you a danger. Imagine if Hawke was a templar he'd be compelled to kill him because of his claims and not give him a chance to dominate his mind with blood magic. 
In a perfect world he shouldn't be executed for a lie trying to make himself seem more cool so he could get laid but there is zero tolerance for blood mages, i'm sorry to say it and sometimes there are silly things in zero tolerance polcies and good people get punished for it but you have to strick to your policies or they become meaningless. 

Diablo the exotic wonder tries to kill you after you ask one question and she is a prostitute she should expect clients. 
Grace kills thrask and since its Thrasks movement I must assume those templars and mages would be loyal to him so grace is dominating their minds.

Modifié par Pileyourbodies, 17 mars 2011 - 05:19 .

[LobselVith8]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Just because they aren't evil incarnate doesn't mean they aren't a danger to others as well as themselves. I saw plenty of blood magic being used in my Hawke's battle to get to the docks. Not sure what game you were playing but I encountered 2 blood mage fights with a ton of abominations/demons all over the place from the torn Veil.
Marethari tells you Feynriel is a danger to everyone if he becomes an abomination, that a dreamer abomination would be allmost unstoppable and it would be best if you can't free him to kill him in the Fade, making him a tranquil.
Not being evil doesn't mean you can't be a danger to others. Do others' freedoms end because you want to be free to do as you please? That's the mentality of criminals.

Does that excuse the enslavement of mages? A thousand years of mage oppression that's resulted in a number of Rights of Anulment that could have been as bogus as the one Meredith called for in Kirkwall. We have templars raping, torturing, turning mages tranquil so they're nothing more than a "templar puppet," and outright killing them, so it's no really a clear cut issue. We have plenty of good and bad on both sides, but I personally don't think that oppressing them to the breaking point is the way to deal with mages. You're welcome to disagree, of course, but we saw how well that worked out in DA2.

Pileyourbodies wrote...

No he should have been executed because he claimed  to be Maleficarum, sorry but being that means you get executed and claiming to be one makes you a danger. Imagine if Hawke was a templar he'd be compelled to kill him because of his claims and not give him a chance to dominate his mind with blood magic. 
In a perfect world he shouldn't be executed for a lie trying to make himself seem more cool so he could get laid but there is zero tolerance for blood mages, i'm sorry to say it and sometimes there are silly things in zero tolerance polcies and good people get punished for it but you have to strick to your policies or they become meaningless. 

You're welcome to you're opinion, of course, but I disagree - he shouldn't be killed for trying to impress a girl.

[Pileyourbodies]

Lobsel i agree with you 100% he shouldn't be killed for trying to impress a girl. He should be killed for claiming to be a Maleficarum.

[DiablosShadows]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

Lobsel i agree with you 100% he shouldn't be killed for trying to impress a girl. He should be killed for claiming to be a Maleficarum.

So you hate Flemeth and Morrigan too?

[Pileyourbodies]

Is shapeshifting forbidden? They're merely Apostates and we don't see any blood magic from them.

According to the wiki shapeshifting is just fine in the circles so its not forbidden. Neither claim to be blood mages so they're just apostates if they are caught or join the circle on their own will good for them if they evade then they're just more apostates.

Modifié par Pileyourbodies, 17 mars 2011 - 05:54 .

[sylvanaerie]

Morrigan tells you the OGB ritual is blood magic.

[Pileyourbodies]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Morrigan tells you the OGB ritual is blood magic.

Well Damn but that gets to be except under the whole warden rules. Doesn't make it good just needed if the wardens think they need it against a blight still doesn't make it right tho.

flemeth however is still just an apostate.

[DiablosShadows]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

Is shapeshifting forbidden? They're merely Apostates and we don't see any blood magic from them.

The Dark Ritual is Blood Magic isnt it? and the Chantry forbids any Magic they dont understand or Fear.

I have a question for you Piley. Is there a mage you dont hate and think deserves death?(dont say bethany or the sheeps in the circles)

[DiablosShadows]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

Morrigan tells you the OGB ritual is blood magic.

Well Damn but that gets to be except under the whole warden rules. Doesn't make it good just needed if the wardens think they need it against a blight still doesn't make it right tho.

flemeth however is still just an apostate.

Flemeth was the one that teached the ritual to Morrigan that means she know blood magic too

[Pileyourbodies]

Sigh...I don't think mages are evil. I don't think mages just deserve death.

I think all mages have the capacity to go evil and thats why they need the Templars to watch over them.
I do think that under the current laws Blood mages GET death, not that they deserve it. If they did it in a controlled situation with their own blood for experiments or whatever without using human thralls i'd have no problem but the current law of the land is that blood magic is evil and its users die.
All people have the capacity to go evil and start murdering, these people are contained by the guard/police forces and they are subject to live under laws. This is no different from the mages who live under the laws of the Templars.
I am an ardent supporter of the rule of law. If something is a law it is to be followed until it is no longer a law, there are many ways to change the law even in non democratic societies, if a regular person breaks the laws of the country/city they live in then they must submit to whatever the punishment that city decrees. Same thing for mages, they're lucky because the circles all have the same rules not every country has the same laws.

[Noatz]

DiablosShadows wrote...

Grace is not evil You killed someone important to her now she wants to return the favor I would of done the samething does that make me evil? No.As for the Exotic Wonder she is just using self defence seeing how 4 ppl enter her room fully armed.

It is something of a stretch attempting to defend the actions of those two.

Decimus was an insane blood mage. He attacks you on sight raving about killing all templars, mage superiority, all that jazz. That Grace even cared for him implies a certain ideological alignment in the first place, and in the end she commits what amounts to an atrocity murdering a Templar (one of the ONLY ones) actively trying to find a peaceful solution.

The Exotic Wonder collaborated with a woman who kidnapped people and forced possession upon them. You can't asscociate with these type of people in this manner and somehow remain blameless in spite of it. And then theres the fact that mind controlling someone trying to ask you questions (as my Hawke did) and trying to have them slit their own throat does not equate to any reasonable definition of self defence.

[Vukodlak]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

She shared what merril learned in what 18-20 years or so with the new first in just 3?

There are not plenty of Mages. Name a mage that is good please. Bethany is the only one i can name.

Alright here are some good mages, if you object to anyone on this list please provide evidence aganst them.
Feynriel
Alian
Tobrius
Solivitus
Marethrai
They are all perfectly fine mages.

It can also be argued Karl was a good mage, he was illegally made Tranquil for communicating with Anders.
*Its stated in game its illegal to make a mage Tranquil after he's passed the Harrowing.* And many of the "evil" mages were good people until the Templar oppression drove them to blood magic. Grace is a great example she opposed Decimus use of blood magic but years in the circle under the templar boot soured she. She's a very different person in Act I then in Act III.

Modifié par Vukodlak, 17 mars 2011 - 06:30 .

[Pileyourbodies]

Feynriel was a good person but he was a terrible mage had it not been for Hawke he would have been possessed and thus become a very bad person.
Alian uses blood magic this makes him a Maleficarum this makes him a bad mage. True he does stand up for you but he is still Maleficarum and by the laws of the circle he must be put down.
Tobrius i forget whom that is.
Solivitus isn't a mage is he? I thought he was just an Alchemist.
Marethrai gets possessed by a demon. Good intentions terrible result, becoming a demon has a habit of turing you into a bad person
Karl was screwed over by Arlik we never really meet the real guy sucks to be him.
Grace was always full of rage and ill will to others, talk to her a bit in the court yard.

I might be throwing the terms that are huge and broad around too much, however having good intentions does not make you a good person.

[DiablosShadows]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

Sigh...I don't think mages are evil. I don't think mages just deserve death.

I think all mages have the capacity to go evil and thats why they need the Templars to watch over them.
I do think that under the current laws Blood mages GET death, not that they deserve it. If they did it in a controlled situation with their own blood for experiments or whatever without using human thralls i'd have no problem but the current law of the land is that blood magic is evil and its users die.
All people have the capacity to go evil and start murdering, these people are contained by the guard/police forces and they are subject to live under laws. This is no different from the mages who live under the laws of the Templars.
I am an ardent supporter of the rule of law. If something is a law it is to be followed until it is no longer a law, there are many ways to change the law even in non democratic societies, if a regular person breaks the laws of the country/city they live in then they must submit to whatever the punishment that city decrees. Same thing for mages, they're lucky because the circles all have the same rules not every country has the same laws.

The bolded and underlined is true.Magic is a weapon just like a Sword it depends on how the person chooses to use it. But locking Mages in tower away from their family just cuz they are born with this weapon isnt right. There are other ways to keeping an eye on mages then this.Yet anybody thats not a mage can walk around with a big @ss sword.<_<

[Pileyourbodies]

You ignored the rest. All people are also subject to a sort of templars, the police in reality and in this games case the City guard. Mages just have more people guarding them.

[sylvanaerie]

Tobrias is the mage who knew Hawke's daddy when he was in the Circle in Kirkwall. He gives you the letters you can give to Carver later that talks about his templar friend who let him escape the Circle.

[Pileyourbodies]

Ah i've yet to get very far on my mage play through so havn't encountered him yet. However since Hawkes father was an apostate and if i'm understanding you right Tobrias helped him escape...Well there we go for how hes a bad person. Great intentions and he luckily had a great result but something have very easily gone wrong.

[sylvanaerie]

Tobrias didn't help him escape, a templar did. You can ask TObrias why a templar would do that and he tells you in days prior that the rules of the Order could be 'interpreted' differently in those days. So technically maybe the Templar found a loophole. Not sure. It was a nice quest that gave Carver something to feel good about.

[Pileyourbodies]

Ah thank you for the clarification. See mages can use the law to get out of the Circle...However are we sure tobrias doesn't go to blood magic by end of game!?!?!?!?! That last bit was a joke of course.

[Vukodlak]

[quote]Pileyourbodies wrote...

Feynriel was a good person but he was a terrible mage had it not been for Hawke he would have been possessed and thus become a very bad person.[/quote]
He was a unquely born dreamwalker so he required special help. If you condem mages for needing training then your basically saying mage=evil no matter what. This would include Betheny and Hawke(if a mage).

[quote]
Alian uses blood magic.[/quote]
He ran away when they stared using blood magic, during the acts of mercy, and as I recall later his ownly use of blood magic was to save someones life. Breaking the law to save someones life doesn't make someone evil it infact proves he's good because he knew he could die for saving his life but did so anyway.
And either you (or someone with your avatar) said that using blood magic doesn't automatically make you evil.
[quote]
Tobrius i forget whom that is.
[/quote]
He's involved in the Family History quest for Carver he was a friend of Hawke's father and the Templar who helped Malcom escape.

[quote]Solivitus isn't a mage is he? I thought he was just an Alchemist.[/quote]
He's wearing mage clothing and selling his wears in the gallows next to another woman in mage clothing selling magical gear. I'd say he's a mage.

[quote]
Marethrai gets possessed by a demon. Good intentions terrible result,
[/quote]
Is it really so terrible? The result was exactly what she expected, Hawke and company was forced to killer her thus sparing Merril. She could contain the demon and act as the prison while Merril could not. I'd say the result was far better then if she hadn't become the prison.

[/quote]
Karl was screwed over by Arlik we never really meet the real guy sucks to be him.
[/quote]
Innocent until proven guilty and he's an example of a symptom of the problem. Arlik had a lot of followers didn't he an argument could be made there was just as many evil templar as evil mages.

[quote]
Grace was always full of rage and ill will to others, talk to her a bit in the court yard.
[/quote] Talk to her before the courtyard she wasn't full of rage at the end of Acts fo Mercy, it wasn't until she was recaptured and spent time under the templars boots that she changed.

Good intentions going badly don't make you a bad person either.
[quote]Pileyourbodies wrote...

Lobsel i agree with you 100% he
shouldn't be killed for trying to impress a girl. He should be killed
for claiming to be a Maleficarum.[/quote]
Execpt he was lying, people
shouldnt be punished for lying about comiting a crime. If I lied to a
girl that I stole a car but never actually did should I go to jail for
autotheft?

Modifié par Vukodlak, 17 mars 2011 - 07:02 .