179 réponses à ce sujet

[Spatchmo]

Both Templars and mages in Kirkwall seem to be equally corrupt. It would be interesting to see how both the Circle and the Templars functioned before Meredith arrived, because I'm under the impression that things were quite different, but by the end of the game, both factions need to be destroyed, and they are.

Also, I still think Anders is a good mage, but he's not really Anders. To go really nerdy here, I kind of viewed Anders story as similiar to the original Phoneix Saga in X-Men. The Phoenix Force was a benevolent spiritual entity that was exposed to human emotions, which was something that nver should have happened. The end result was lots of destruction and death, but by the time the dust settled, neither Jean Grey or the Phoenix Force were really to blame. Of course, this is all just speculation on my part, and we'll have to see how much of Anders or Justice was really in control in future installments. I REALLY hope Anders' story isn't over yet.

[Vukodlak]

Spatchmo wrote...

Both Templars and mages in Kirkwall seem to be equally corrupt. It would be interesting to see how both the Circle and the Templars functioned before Meredith arrived, because I'm under the impression that things were quite different, but by the end of the game, both factions need to be destroyed, and they are.

Also, I still think Anders is a good mage, but he's not really Anders. To go really nerdy here, I kind of viewed Anders story as similiar to the original Phoneix Saga in X-Men. The Phoenix Force was a benevolent spiritual entity that was exposed to human emotions, which was something that nver should have happened. The end result was lots of destruction and death, but by the time the dust settled, neither Jean Grey or the Phoenix Force were really to blame. Of course, this is all just speculation on my part, and we'll have to see how much of Anders or Justice was really in control in future installments. I REALLY hope Anders' story isn't over yet.

It could be said Anders was a good mage right up until he fused with Justice, then he became another person.

[Pileyourbodies]

I would say that mages not getting training does make them...Dangerous and vulnerable to demonic possession thus leading to being Evil. Bethany and Hawke were lucky to have their father train them and he did a fine job they're very lucky.

Alian still did use it. While it doesn't make him Evil it makes him break a law that carries with it an automatic capital crime.

Sol isn't a tranquil and i thought the mages used tranquils for shop keepers. I'm still not sold on him being a mage but if he is well thats another one for your side.

I'll concede the Marethrai point but it still stands a mage as powerful as her was possessed by a demon, she reminds me a bit of Tal'Rasha from Diablo 2 he implanted baal inside him and then had himself entombed great intention but he gave Baal the most powerful mage of the time because he had hubris. I think Marethrai did the same, she trapped the demon and thought she could contain it due to her Hubris, she does turn into a pride demon after all.

Arlik was also high ranking, the templar in that cave might have been there because he was there boss and he was hunting down apostates.
Thrask has a lot of supports
Cullen has a lot of supporters. both of those 2 have good intentions, Thrasks turned out terrible.

[DiablosShadows]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

I would say that mages not getting training does make them...Dangerous and vulnerable to demonic possession thus leading to being Evil. Bethany and Hawke were lucky to have their father train them and he did a fine job they're very lucky.

Alian still did use it. While it doesn't make him Evil it makes him break a law that carries with it an automatic capital crime.

Sol isn't a tranquil and i thought the mages used tranquils for shop keepers. I'm still not sold on him being a mage but if he is well thats another one for your side.

I'll concede the Marethrai point but it still stands a mage as powerful as her was possessed by a demon, she reminds me a bit of Tal'Rasha from Diablo 2 he implanted baal inside him and then had himself entombed great intention but he gave Baal the most powerful mage of the time because he had hubris. I think Marethrai did the same, she trapped the demon and thought she could contain it due to her Hubris, she does turn into a pride demon after all.

Arlik was also high ranking, the templar in that cave might have been there because he was there boss and he was hunting down apostates.
Thrask has a lot of supports
Cullen has a lot of supporters. both of those 2 have good intentions, Thrasks turned out terrible.

Alian used it to free your bro/sis it was the only way.

[sylvanaerie]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

Ah thank you for the clarification. See mages can use the law to get out of the Circle...However are we sure tobrias doesn't go to blood magic by end of game!?!?!?!?! That last bit was a joke of course.

Why not? every other damn mage in the game seemed to be using it, except Anders and my LadyHawke.  That's one crime i can't heap on his head at least.

[Vukodlak]

I would say that mages not getting training does make them...Dangerous and vulnerable to demonic possession thus leading to being Evil. Bethany and Hawke were lucky to have their father train them and he did a fine job they're very lucky.

And look at all the mages under the Templar who turned out evil. How many mages trained by apostates do we know that turned out bad? The villianous blood mages of the game are largely from the Circle and turned to blood magic to fight the templars. I think the point still stands, The Templars controlling mages may cause more abombinations and evil casters then it prevents.

As I said the Templars are a police force, and a police state doesn't work. Thus the circle fails

Alian still did use it. While it doesn't make him Evil

You asked for good mages, so Alian stands as a good mage. Under a reasonable templar he could even be forgiven, due to circumstances. Not every blood mage the templars capture is executed. Idunna was part of the plot to turn templars into abombinations and she lives if turned over to the templars. [granted it appears to be life imprisonment] but she lives and in fact becomes good again imporing you to destory the Forbidden tomes.  If she could be allowed to live and seek absolution, then certainly so could Alian.

Sol isn't a tranquil and i thought the mages used tranquils for shop keepers. I'm still not sold on him being a mage but if he is well thats another one for your side.

Tranquils make all the items but they aren't always the shop keepers. The unnamed mage next to him selling magical goods doesn't sound Tranquil either during her random dialog.(as you can't actively speak to her). 

Arlik was also high ranking, the templar in that cave might have been there because he was there boss and he was hunting down apostates.

. And a high ranking mage can't intimidate young impressional mages into following him like Arlik does with his authority over lesser templars?

[ginzaen]

vigna wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Yep, if Meredith had been had way resonable instead of a Stalin wannabe, I would totally have sided with the templars.

QFT!

i blame it on the lyrium relic item- even though she was a bit mad to start with.

[Nathan Redgrave]

jjbens wrote...

Almost everything in dragon age 2 made me hate the mages. 1) your sister and andres alway complain about everything.

 
Isabela: *deadpan* "Damn them for wanting freedom."

[Rumtruffle]

only reason i didnt side with the templars was because of my dislike for meredith. i didnt even like her face, she looked like a **** and acted accordingly.

[WidowMaker9394]

It was an effect of Meredith's abuse. In oppressing them, they gave her a reason to oppress them even harder.

[Lumikki]

Vukodlak wrote...

I would say that mages not getting training does make them...Dangerous and vulnerable to demonic possession thus leading to being Evil. Bethany and Hawke were lucky to have their father train them and he did a fine job they're very lucky.

And look at all the mages under the Templar who turned out evil. How many mages trained by apostates do we know that turned out bad? The villianous blood mages of the game are largely from the Circle and turned to blood magic to fight the templars. I think the point still stands, The Templars controlling mages may cause more abombinations and evil casters then it prevents.

Templars extreme control may cause more of abombinations, but it doesn't prevent it to happen anyway or mage just abuse the power without become abombinations. Like you self sayed here, templar is the polise force build to keep mages under control, because no-one else can't seem to handle or want to deal the situations. Because it gets messy with mages.

I think the question isn't more like why templars do what they do. What templars do is neccassary. So, the real problem isn't that templars are the polise. Problem is that they take freedom away from mages. Now why they do that?

Could the answer be that mages talent becomes dangerous in so young age that no-one can expect childrens to understand they responsibility of those talens and danger of it. Also childrens parents can be very naive to really understand the danger or how to prepare mages agaist these dangers. "My little boy, he did not mean to do it."

Only real people to handle these young mages is circle of mages. So, young mages are gathered in under they Circle of mages wings, while templars are watching all mages. It's balance what exist from neccassarity. Of course our own "human" weaknesses makes thing more extreme, like fear what mages can do.  And why mages should not be feared. Look what they have done in DA2. How many mage did abuse they power. I'm not just talking how easyly mages seem to turn to abombinations, but using magic to do something bad, like killing people.

Hole situation in Kirkwall between mages and templars is so extreme. It could go too far, but why does Hawke been forced to middle of this as choose between them. I would never have choosen side of templars or mages. I would have choosen side of peace and fight agaist anyone who tries to create war. I doesn't matter who you are are. You kill others, you get judged by Hawke or law or Chantry clerics. There is nothing worst than allow you self  be used and become part of the problem too, not as solution. My Hawke is not tool for distripute power as choose who's right, my Hawke is there to keep peace agaist "extreme" criminals.

I think this is where DA2 story fails. Not for everyone, but for players who aren't taking sides.

Modifié par Lumikki, 17 mars 2011 - 01:12 .

[Wulfram]

Lumikki wrote...

Hole situation in Kirkwall between mages and templars is so extreme. It could go too far, but why does Hawke been forced to middle of this as choose between them. I would never have choosen side of templars or mages. I would have choosen side of peace and fight agaist anyone who tries to create war. I doesn't matter who you are are. You kill others, you get judged by Hawke or law or Chantry clerics. There is nothing worst than allow you self  be used and become part of the problem too, not as solution. My Hawke is not tool for distripute power as choose who's right, my Hawke is there to keep peace agaist "extreme" criminals.

I think this is where DA2 story fails. Not for everyone, but for players who aren't taking sides.

My Hawke tried to keep the peace.  She failed, and when the Templars decided they needed to kill everyone, she was forced to oppose them.  I don't see the problem with that.  It wasn't a happy ending, but it made sense.

[CRISIS1717]

I sided with the Templars because Orsino had always failed to keep his mages in check. Better to have a corrupt leader and order than chaos and killing as blood mages and abominations run riot.

[RazorrX]

The problem in Kirkwall is two fold -

1) the Templar Knight Commander was draconian to begin with, then once she got hold of the Lyrium idol she went totally bat **** crazy. She was NEVER reasonable. The day you arrive at Kirkwall you begin to hear how horrible it is for mages in the circle.

2) The First Enchanter is a blood mage. The circle was corrupt from the top down. Those who were feeling oppressed, who were being fingered for Tranquility, etc. were perfect pawns for him to lure into blood magic. He was recruiting an army to opposes Merideth from the beginning.

Those two things led to the situation. The more mages he converted to blood magic the more that escaped or got found out. The more that got found out, the more that Merideth tightened her grip on the circle. The more she squeezed, the more that went to blood magic, etc.

If you could have killed both the first enchanter and the knight marshall in act 1, Act 3 would never have taken place.

[Lumikki]

Let me put this other ways. There is war comming between Mages and Templars, there is nothing what you can do to prevent it. Templars and Mages are asking which side you choose. Now here is the problem.

1. You agree Templars are right and choose Templars
2. You agree Mages are right and choose Mages
3. You agree that both side are wrong or right and don't choose between them.
  - Two choise. You can say, anyone killing innocent people who aren't part of you inner wars, I will arrest them or if refused, I will kill them, it doesn't matter what side you are. Or you say, I don't want to be part of this madness and decide to go away from Kirkwall.

Now the question is if you think both are wrong and right, then what motive player would have been choosing between them. To get war over faster? There is also the 3rd party in this, all the people who aren't part of templars or mages. What's the best option for them? Kill one side fast or let them all kill each other? As peace was not option anymore.

Modifié par Lumikki, 17 mars 2011 - 02:40 .

[Noatz]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

I'll concede the Marethrai point but it still stands a mage as powerful as her was possessed by a demon, she reminds me a bit of Tal'Rasha from Diablo 2 he implanted baal inside him and then had himself entombed great intention but he gave Baal the most powerful mage of the time because he had hubris. I think Marethrai did the same, she trapped the demon and thought she could contain it due to her Hubris, she does turn into a pride demon after all.

Thing is, Marethari never assumed she could contain the demon. She trapped it within her, then immediately tells your party when they arrive that they must kill her to be rid of it. The only reason she did this was to save Merril: I think the quote was something like "you always knew there would be a price for your blood magic; I have chosen to pay it for you."

Let me put this other ways. There is war comming between Mages and
Templars, there is nothing what you can do to prevent it. Templars and
Mages are asking which side you choose. Now here is the problem.

1. You agree Templars are right and choose Templars
2. You agree Mages are right and choose Mages
3. You agree that both side are wrong or right and don't choose between them.
 
- Two choise. You can say, anyone killing innocent people who aren't
part of you inner wars, I will arrest them or if refused, I will kill
them, it doesn't matter what side you are. Or you say, I don't want to
be part of this madness and decide to go away from Kirkwall.

Now
the question is if you think both are wrong and right, then what motive
player would have been choosing between them. To get war over faster?
There is also the 3rd party in this, all the people who aren't part of
templars or mages. What's the best option for them? Kill one side fast
or let them all kill each other? As peace was not option anymore.

The champion is a bit too embroiled in Kirkwall's politics by this point to realistically be able to just walk away, even though that would be the first thing most people would want to do in Hawke's shoes. Ultimately Meredith's uncompromising "with us or against us" stance forces you to choose sides here, I don't think you're supposed to end up feeling good about supporting either of these sides here, you're just forced into it by circumstance (and in the end it doesn't even matter as you have to put down both of the raving loonies no matter what you choose).

[Purple People Eater]

I took up for Mages the whole game, but after what Anders did, I put a knife in his back, and sided with the Templars. Then, Udina turns into a Harvester, and im thinking...the Templars have a point.

[Gamer Ftw]

I find it really hard to hate someone who is kidnapped as a child taken to a tower by big terrifying men who watch them bath and forced into the fade to face and demon and maybe die without even being able to say goodbye to their friends.
I am also surprised to one realises they use tranquils as slave labor.

[Nimander]

Pileyourbodies, I think what I'm reading is you believe that the law is ultimate arbiter of right and wrong, /no matter the morality of the law in question and the situation/ is that correct? It doesn't matter if the law says 'All Blonde people must be killed', if you're blonde, it's right to kill you 'cause you're blonde? This is a parallel to your 'he said he was a maleficarium, he must die' that kid did 'cause he was a twit.

If so, all I can say is that I disagree. Laws are there to protect the people, not to be followed like a robot.

As for the guy who responded that the Veil is thin in all Circles? We have _NO_ evidence of this, and the codex makes it a poin tthat the Kirkwall Veil is very weak. So unless you have proof in codexes, that's a theory with no supporting evidence, and I'll go with the 'Weak Veil Contributed' theory, myself.

[Lumikki]

Noatz wrote...

The champion is a bit too embroiled in Kirkwall's politics by this point to realistically be able to just walk away, even though that would be the first thing most people would want to do in Hawke's shoes. Ultimately Meredith's uncompromising "with us or against us" stance forces you to choose sides here, I don't think you're supposed to end up feeling good about supporting either of these sides here, you're just forced into it by circumstance (and in the end it doesn't even matter as you have to put down both of the raving loonies no matter what you choose).

It's about that there is only two bad choise offered for play, when there could be 3rd choise too, but it's not offered, because why?  I mean if Hawke is writing _the story_ with choises hawke makes, then all choises should be there and not just what developers assume player should make. What if Hawke doesn't choose, when it's forced, then what happens?

Allways remember player character can say NO to you and just walk away. You can't really force people to make choises agaist they will. At least if they are ready for die for they choises. I solved situation as not make choise and Ended Hawke story there, because game did not offer anymore for Hawke path to walk. I can't play agaist story, but I can end it, when I can't anymore continue.

Politics is only there is your Hawke wants to be part of it, like before, you can't force someone into something.

[KodiakAsh]

Yea seriously I brought Fenris along the entire game and at first I was all siding with the Mages (being a mage myself) and was getting kinda annoyed by his responses to every situation but honestly by the end of the game I couldn't help but completely agree with him.

In every situation mages turned to blood magic. Not sometimes. Not half the time. Every time. Even at the end when mages had zero reason to turn to blood magic they still freaking did it. From a storyline perspective I felt this was forced. I could see it happening if the hero didn't side with the mages in cases and instead sided with the templars, kinda like a last resort dealio where they were completely abandoned. Instead without fail, every time, every mage in the game turns to blood magic except Anders who's an abomination.

I was pretty disappointed by this over all storyline wise.

[Bigdoser]

Gamer Ftw wrote...

I find it really hard to hate someone who is kidnapped as a child taken to a tower by big terrifying men who watch them bath and forced into the fade to face and demon and maybe die without even being able to say goodbye to their friends.
I am also surprised to one realises they use tranquils as slave labor.

I would like to escape from any place where people would watch me take a bath.

[terdferguson123]

OP, this is done on purpose. The game is not supposed to be written in a way that there is a clear way of seeing if the mages or templars are at fault. They wrote it in a way that they both have positives and negatives. This is called good storytelling. It would be boring if the Templars were 100% evil and have no reason to keep the innocent mages from getting out. No way, the mages and all their actions are meant to show that maybe there is some justification to the templars, just like there is justification in how some mages are innocent. The issue is very grey, and I have huge respect to biowares writers for making such a difficult choice to make with the templars and mages.

[Noatz]

Lumikki wrote...

It's about that there is only two bad choise offered for play, when there could be 3rd choise too, but it's not offered, because why?  I mean if Hawke is writing _the story_ with choises hawke makes, then all choises should be there and not just what developers assume player should make. What if Hawke doesn't choose, when it's forced, then what happens?

Allways remember player character can say NO to you and just walk away. You can't really force people to make choises agaist they will. At least if they are ready for die for they choises. I solved situation as not make choise and Ended Hawke story there, because game did not offer anymore for Hawke path to walk. I can't play agaist story, but I can end it, when I can't anymore continue.

Politics is only there is your Hawke wants to be part of it, like before, you can't force someone into something.

Politics here isn't a case of "I'm going to get into politics and join xxx party", its something you're involved in like it or not being the Champion and second most influential figure in Kirkwall.

It isn't unrealistic or indeed unreasonable for the game to demand choices from you, when it has been doing so the entire time you've played it. Talking about walking away from the game in the manner you speak - why not refuse to deal with the Arishok and just end Hawke's story there? You're forced to deal with him in the much the same way, and he had a pretty good point about the state of Kirkwall. The simple fact of the matter is, Meredith does not allow you to just walk away. In any story, especially one in a world as tumultuous as Thedas involving figures as important as the Champion, events like this WILL happen and yes you CAN be forced into a choice, even if the only choices you have are bad. Just as it can happen in real life, it can happen here.

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

On the contrary, for me it was Bethany who reminded me to side with the mages and that they are not all bad.

Honestly I don't see how anyone can side against the Mages given the background of your character and your sister.