179 réponses à ce sujet

[Lithuasil]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

On the contrary, for me it was Bethany who reminded me to side with the mages and that they are not all bad.

Honestly I don't see how anyone can side against the Mages given the background of your character and your sister.

The people who made the outro certainly thought the same

[Vicious]

Honestly I don't see how anyone can side against the Mages given the background of your character and your sister.

Gee maybe by what happens to your mother? And that most mages you meet in the game are evil and try to kill you?

Everyone looks at Mages and Templars through DA:O's eyes and that's where they fail. Templars are the good guys this time around.


By siding with the Templars you get to save the GOOD mages and wipe out the Bad ones, usurp power and take command of the Templars from Meredith.

Side with the Mages and you are just a tool used and discarded, and you have to clear up the mess before leaving the city forever.

Everyone thought it was going to be like DA:O, Mages obviously good, Templars obviously bad.

Bioware owned them.

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

Vicious wrote...

Honestly I don't see how anyone can side against the Mages given the background of your character and your sister.

Gee maybe by what happens to your mother?

See, I still don't see it. Your mother clearly loved your father, she wouldn't want you to kill him. She also loved your sister, she wouldn't want you to kill her.

[Lumikki]

Noatz wrote...

Politics here isn't a case of "I'm going to get into politics and join xxx party", its something you're involved in like it or not being the Champion and second most influential figure in Kirkwall.

It isn't unrealistic or indeed unreasonable for the game to demand choices from you, when it has been doing so the entire time you've played it. Talking about walking away from the game in the manner you speak - why not refuse to deal with the Arishok and just end Hawke's story there? You're forced to deal with him in the much the same way, and he had a pretty good point about the state of Kirkwall. The simple fact of the matter is, Meredith does not allow you to just walk away. In any story, especially one in a world as tumultuous as Thedas involving figures as important as the Champion, events like this WILL happen and yes you CAN be forced into a choice, even if the only choices you have are bad. Just as it can happen in real life, it can happen here.

I don't refuse to Arishok choise, because there was clear case of right and wrong. In templars vs mage cause there is no right or wrong, just idiotism. Also just because some idiots has named me Champion of Kirkwall, doesn't mean it mean anything to ME. If others does stupid stuff because it, it's they problem. Try to notice difference between me doing politics and others doing it. Yes, you can force weak minded persons, but not everyone.  See, I just refused and there is NOTHING what you can do about it.

Modifié par Lumikki, 17 mars 2011 - 09:53 .

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

Vicious wrote...

Honestly I don't see how anyone can side against the Mages given the background of your character and your sister.

Gee maybe by what happens to your mother?

No, see I don't see how that justifies it. Your mother loved your father and your mother loved your sister. She wouldn't have wanted either of them to die and she certainly wouldn't want you to go about killing your sister.

Sorry, I just don't buy it. You're also taking this a bit too personally, I'm not seeing the mages from DA:O's perspective, I perfectly saw all of the blood mages and all of the bad apples. It's just all of the good apples I've also seen along with the PC's family that makes siding with Templars unfeasible.

Neither side are good or bad, just there are good and bad ones in both.

Modifié par Mikazukinoyaiba2, 17 mars 2011 - 09:54 .

[Noatz]

Vicious wrote...

Honestly I don't see how anyone can side against the Mages given the background of your character and your sister.

Gee maybe by what happens to your mother? And that most mages you meet in the game are evil and try to kill you?

Everyone looks at Mages and Templars through DA:O's eyes and that's where they fail. Templars are the good guys this time around.


By siding with the Templars you get to save the GOOD mages and wipe out the Bad ones, usurp power and take command of the Templars from Meredith.

Side with the Mages and you are just a tool used and discarded, and you have to clear up the mess before leaving the city forever.

Everyone thought it was going to be like DA:O, Mages obviously good, Templars obviously bad.

Bioware owned them.

The Templars in Kirkwall are far and away worse than the ones in Ferelden. Greagoir was what I would describe as harsh but fair, Meredith was terribly draconian even before she was addled by the idol. Then you have the sadistic ones like Alrik and the idiots like Varnell. The only decent Templars in Kirkwall were Thrask and his crew.

Case in point, Cullen suffered at the hands of blood mages in DAO, so Greagoir's response knowing he was likely to harbour deep resentment for mages after this was to assign him to Kirkwall under Meredith, presumably because he was aware she was a ridiculous zealot.

I'm saying nothing in defence of the mages in this game (who are nothing but insane criminals for the most part), but neither side can at all be considered "good" here.

[Vicious]

Your mother loved your father and your mother loved your sister. She wouldn't have wanted either of them to die and she certainly wouldn't want you to go about killing your sister.

What the hell? My Hawke joined the Templars to make sure it DIDN'T come to 'kill all the mages' and that's exactly what happened. He saved the ones that could be saved. He was even happily reunited with Bethany.

Family is different from random mage I just met. And most Random Mages i just met tried to kill me, wheras most Random Templars I just met were fair in their dealings [unless possessed against their will]

Cullen wound up being like Greagoir, as well. I was impressed.

love this game

Modifié par Vicious, 17 mars 2011 - 09:58 .

[Montana]

I think BioWare deliberately portrayed both sides as doucehbags to show that neither side was right.

But I agree, when the first enchanter said: "Meredith expects blood magic, I'll give her blood magic!" I said out loud:
"Dude! You just maid her point! Aaand now I, Me, who's trying to help have to fight YOU!?! WTF!"

And then Meredith has been driven mad by lyrium.
What happened with good old megalomania and the human capability of evil.

It's like the reasons for the whole conflict was taken away from the characters and became Demons vs Lyrium induced madness.
That was my main problem with the story, a real disappointment. When the credits rolled, all I thought was:
Atleast I got Bethany out alive.

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

Vicious wrote...

Your mother loved your father and your mother loved your sister. She wouldn't have wanted either of them to die and she certainly wouldn't want you to go about killing your sister.

What the hell? My Hawke joined the Templars to make sure it DIDN'T come to 'kill all the mages' and that's exactly what happened. He saved the ones that could be saved. He was even happily reunited with Bethany.

When you were given a choice, it didn't seem like the choices were "join the templars and save the good mages" or "join the mages and destroy all templars"

The choices seemed like:
- Kill all of the mages
- Defend the mages against the Templars

Family is different from random mage I just met. And most Random Mages i just met tried to kill me, wheras most Random Templars I just met were fair in their dealings [unless possessed against their will]

Family is different, however said family reminds you that mages also have families and taking an extremist action isn't feasible.

[Fennel]

The templers are not good guys.
"Tranquil solution".

The mages are not good guys. One word: Orsino.

Horrible situation, everything is bad, and the only good choice to take is, indeed, siding with the templers so you can weed out the dangerous mages from the good ones.

[Noatz]

Lumikki wrote...

I don't refuse to Arishok choise, because there was clear case of right and wrong. In templars vs mage cause there is no right or wrong, just idiotism. Also just because some idiots has named me Champion of Kirkwall, doesn't mean it mean anything to ME. If others does stupid stuff because it, it's they problem. Try to notice difference between me doing politics and others doing it. Yes, you can force weak minded persons, but not everyone.  See, I just refused and there is NOTHING what you can do about it.

Really? In my mind the Arishok had a good point about Kirkwall in general, and the murder of his diplomats gave him good cause to attack. You can easily make a case for Hawke agreeing with the Arishok here, but because his home is under attack he chooses to go and save it. Even though this is also an assumption by the game I don't find it unreasonable. What it is not is a clear case of right and wrong.

And now, it doesn't actually matter that "some idiots" (and by this you mean - general population of the Free Marches to whom it is custom) inconsiderately named you Champion for saving their city, the only thing that matters is that others consider you a person of import. This provides Meredith with justification for forcing the Champion to side with someone. You can kick and scream all you like but when someone tells you you're either with them or against them it pretty much boils your choices right the way down considering trying to leave would pit you against the entire templar order possibly without the support of the mages. Its as much an indicator of weak mindedness to decline to make such a decision.

[Lumikki]

You mean there is some good reason to killing innocent people, who has nothing to do with issue, what some other people have. What that justification would be?

Modifié par Lumikki, 17 mars 2011 - 10:44 .

[Noatz]

Lumikki wrote...

You mean there is some good reason to killing innocent people, who has nothing to do with issue, what some other people have. What that justification would be?

You have to judge the Arishok's actions by his own moral code - the Qun - rather than any foreign ideals. He sat and waited in the city because the Qun demanded he reclaim the relic, and while he found Kirkwall apalling it did not demand he attack it. When his diplomats were murdered, and the elves who had submitted to the Qun were in danger of being reclaimed, this changed and so he attacked doing what he now felt was required of him by the Qun.

Regardless, if killing innocents is what you find reprehensible about the situation with the Arishok then the same is true about the situation between the mages and templars. The rite of annulment will kill innocent mages, the fighting itself will kill innocent people. You can't apply the apparant cavalier attitude of your Hawke to justify running away from the mage-templar confrontation and yet have him stay to fight the Arishok claiming that innocents would otherwise die, it's inconsistent.

[Pileyourbodies]

Noatz wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

You mean there is some good reason to killing innocent people, who has nothing to do with issue, what some other people have. What that justification would be?

You have to judge the Arishok's actions by his own moral code - the Qun - rather than any foreign ideals. He sat and waited in the city because the Qun demanded he reclaim the relic, and while he found Kirkwall apalling it did not demand he attack it. When his diplomats were murdered, and the elves who had submitted to the Qun were in danger of being reclaimed, this changed and so he attacked doing what he now felt was required of him by the Qun.

Regardless, if killing innocents is what you find reprehensible about the situation with the Arishok then the same is true about the situation between the mages and templars. The rite of annulment will kill innocent mages, the fighting itself will kill innocent people. You can't apply the apparant cavalier attitude of your Hawke to justify running away from the mage-templar confrontation and yet have him stay to fight the Arishok claiming that innocents would otherwise die, it's inconsistent.

So you're saying the Germans in ww2(stupid censor) whom were just fine with genocide against the jewish people shouldn't have been tried in international court? sorry to invoke godwins law but its been done before in this thread and if i can make a point with it i won't shy from it.

[Noatz]

Ah good to see Godwin's Law rearing its ugly head again. The trouble with invoking it is the inevitable **** themed analogy rarely has any genuine relevance to what is being discussed.

It would change the topic from debating the Arishok's actions to discussing whether the Qun is an abhorrent social structure or not, which is quite different to what is being discussed here, which is already drifting away from what the topic is shown to be about.

[Pileyourbodies]

No Noatz it is perfectly acceptable. you said we can't judge them based on our morals and we can. We do so all the time. If we just took him based on his morals then the Qun has won as it is just a belief system.

[CitizenSnips]

It's kind of hard not to hate everyone in Act 3.

[DrGulag]

From the other topic "tranquil solution", here's how I see the mages after Dragon Age 2.

-Tevinter Imperium is a testament to what happens if mages are allowed the
freedom to pursue their own goals.

-Most of the apostates seem to use blood magic and end up killing random people just
to satisfy some random fade demon. And even decent mages can be
possessed by a demon without any warning.

They are like walking nuclear devices just waiting to go off and they need to be contained. Just one mage is enough to kill an entire village like happened in RedCliffe. One mage is enough to bring down the entire Circle like happened in Ferelden. And after DA2 the mages have rebelled (Varric said "The Circles rose up and set the world on fire")

I say kill the mages, make them tranquil or travel to your nearest Qunari town and convert.

There's no way this story will have a happy ending. It's about survival at this point.

Normal people being used as cattle in blood magic or a handful of mages being persecuted. These are pretty much the options.

Modifié par DrGulag, 17 mars 2011 - 11:27 .

[Selig]

The problem with judging the mages by the ones you meet is that every mage you meet is evil. The point being that these are the mages who are outside the law, who escaped and will do anything to remain so. The mages you never meet, the vast majority, are locked up in Circles and not permitted to leave. It's difficult to judge a people as evil when the majority of them are locked out of sight and withheld from the world at large. I am somewhat disappointed at the mages for turning to murder and blood magic, but you have to admit they have a deep resentment for their imprisonment.

Think for a moment, if you were forced to be imprisoned in a tower for a birth defect. Able to walk its halls freely and study your birth defect, but not able to leave or put that defect to any use. Step out of line or make one wrong move and death or loss of everything you are are the only two options you get. Your captors give you no leniency, and the only way you will ever leave this life is death or escape - and escape means death if they catch you.

I think this is why the mages you meet are jerks. Repressed their entire lives, they finally escape with the thought of survival on their mind. Everyone is suspicious of them. Anyone could report them to the templars and end their freedom or their lives. And all of this because of something some unrelated people did a thousand years ago, they are being punished for it.

The templars are hardly evil, but even most can see that the repression going on is wrong. If most mages seem evil it is because they feel that only the most powerful magics can keep them safe. The ones that can overcome the innate negation of magic all templar's possess. The ones that also corrupt them in return.

Modifié par Selig, 17 mars 2011 - 11:35 .

[Ngoctu]

templar = Autorithary Father
mage = Adolescent
people = little brother

Father keep Adolescent under check dont let him out much force him to study.... Adolescent pissed off start torturing the little brother in the worst possible way

you = mather
 
first of all you SLAP the adolescent and SLAP him very hard and lock him up
because first of all u have to think about the "weaked" the people (little brother) and those bloody mage use the people of the city as disposable...
And if the adolescent has a twin and u dont know which one did that to the little brother then you slap both the one that didnt do it will understand (or could have stoped his twin from doing something so stupid so he deserve it as well)

then once u dealed with the adolescent u may go to the father and kick him in the ball and leave him but this AFTER you deal with the mage/adolescent since the real victim here is NOT the father NOT the adoloscent but the LITTLE BROTHER

let's not forget that.

Modifié par Ngoctu, 17 mars 2011 - 11:40 .

[DrGulag]

Selig :

The problem with judging the mages by the ones you meet is that every
mage you meet is evil. The point being that these are the mages who are
outside the law, who escaped and will do anything to remain so. The
mages you never meet, the vast majority, are locked up in Circles and
not permitted to leave. It's difficult to judge a people as evil when
the majority of them are locked out of sight and withheld from the world
at large. I am somewhat disappointed at the mages for turning to murder
and blood magic, but you have to admit they have a deep resentment for
their imprisonment.

Think for a moment, if you were forced to be
imprisoned in a tower for a birth defect. Able to walk its halls freely
and study your birth defect, but not able to leave or put that defect to
any use. Step out of line or make one wrong move and death or loss of
everything you are are the only two options you get. Your captors give
you no leniency, and the only way you will ever leave this life is death
or escape - and escape means death if they catch you.

I think
this is why the mages you meet are jerks. Repressed their entire lives,
they finally escape with the thought of survival on their mind. Everyone
is suspicious of them. Anyone could report them to the templars and end
their freedom or their lives. And all of this because of something some
unrelated people did a thousand years ago, they are being punished for
it.

The templars are hardly evil, but even most can see that the repression going on is wrong. If most mages seem evil it is because they feel that only the most powerful magics can keep them safe. The ones that can overcome the innate negation of magic all templar's possess. The ones that also corrupt them in return.

There is no option. It's either

A) The Circle
Another Tevinter Imperium where mages have freedom to pursue their goals. Normal people end up as cattle. Golden City corrupted, world almost doomed yadayada bad stuff.
C) Kill all the mages or make them tranquil
D) Join the Qunari and state "I pity the fools! Vastly superior to the rest of Thedas!".

Modifié par DrGulag, 17 mars 2011 - 11:39 .

[JamesX]

vigna wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Yep, if Meredith had been had way resonable instead of a Stalin wannabe, I would totally have sided with the templars.

QFT!

The sad part is Meredith has a very strong excuse... Orsino's excuse is hardly as strong.  I think Bioware wrote that part in just so they can say "There is no rightside" but from a story telling point of view that is pretty much a WTH moment.

Modifié par JamesX, 17 mars 2011 - 11:44 .

[Noatz]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

No Noatz it is perfectly acceptable. you said we can't judge them based on our morals and we can. We do so all the time. If we just took him based on his morals then the Qun has won as it is just a belief system.

Ah yes, but the point I made was that as an individual you can only judge the Arishok based on the Qun because that is what he lives by. You can judge the Qun itself using our own moral basis certainly, but condemning the Arishok outright is just being ignorant. If the Arishok was guilty of distorting the Qun to fit his own ends (much like fundamentalist Islamists do) then it becomes another matter but from what we are shown, he does not.

[arnett001]

Bethany, and the guy who is hunting the serial killer are really the only entirely good mages, I think if the circle and templars were more reasonable they would have less mages hiding, and could do their job more effectively. But kirkwall is apparently full of nutters. I hope the next game will follow up with the Hero of Ferelden (or at least take place in Ferelden) I still want to know what happens to Morrigan and my kid.

[JamesX]

Selig wrote...

Think for a moment, if you were forced to be imprisoned in a tower for a birth defect. Able to walk its halls freely and study your birth defect, but not able to leave or put that defect to any use. Step out of line or make one wrong move and death or loss of everything you are are the only two options you get. Your captors give you no leniency, and the only way you will ever leave this life is death or escape - and escape means death if they catch you.

I think this is why the mages you meet are jerks. Repressed their entire lives, they finally escape with the thought of survival on their mind. Everyone is suspicious of them. Anyone could report them to the templars and end their freedom or their lives. And all of this because of something some unrelated people did a thousand years ago, they are being punished for it.

This is reaching though.  Quite a bit of Mages seems well adjusted.  Like if you goto the Gallows they are students wandering the Squares.  They are not all locked up in a tower and have nothing to do.  They have lives.  It is no different than a on-campus academy where you cannot leave the campus unless the teacher excuse you.

There are definitely restricted freedom, but when you have a bunch of people who are always armed, wouldn't you restrict their freedom?  Like they have to pass a profeciency test before they can carry their weapon (or in the mage case, mix with normal society).  Or like you cannot attack people with the weapon without consequence that is higher than if you attacked them with your fists (just like our society).

What the Templars at Kirkwall under the Overzealousness of Meredith (even before Act 2) is extreme, but so are some of the people's view that mages deserve to be free just like normal people without any oversight.  

Templars have oversights as well.  They are governed by superiors and the Chantry.  You cannot blame 1 bad leadership for an entire system.  There are bad people in every situation, the robustness of a system is how quickly/well those bad apples are rooted out.

In the case of Kirkwall they BOTH utterly failed.  The Circle should also be policying itself and by all account they failed MISERABLY.  One can just as easily argu that if the Circle had kep better reins on itself that Meredith would not have been so extreme.  Because Blood Mages keep poping up so she has to constantly excaliate her efforts which in turns churns out MORE blood mages.  It is a vicious cycle and the blame cannot be so completely laid on one side or the other.  It is on both the leadership's faults.  I personally blame the Grand Cleric.  As a person whom both leaders respect, she should have used her infulence to protect her flock.  But I understand why Bioware had to keep her out of it, or else the game has no climatic ending - nor the pointless destruction.  The whole story is just a pooch-screw because Bioware already wrote the conclusion and just ramroded a bunch of unrealistic events together to lead to it.  Everyone had to be stubborn and bull-headed and one-dimensional to make it work, because the story required bigotry and insensitivity - and that is what had to happen.