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Its kind of hard not to hate the mages.


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#151
Noatz

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Both sides certainly did utterly fail in Kirkwall - why else is this the location for the incident that caused the Templar-Mage war?

I wouldn't be so hasty however in labelling it bad/lazy writing. If you have what you could call a "difficult" Circle at Kirkwall (caused in part by the state of the veil there - thanks Tevinter), then the course of action many leaders would take is to assign a strict or zealous Knight-Commander to keep it in check. You can dismiss that as stupid with benefit of hindsight, but look at the alternative first. If you choose someone moderate to look after things then it stands to reason you will get more blood mages and the like than elsewhere since it is much easier to consort with demons where the veil is thin. If no one is looking, its easier to get away with it.

A better question to ask is, why on earth was there a Circle in Kirkwall anyway? Its probably the worst possible location for a Circle of magi on Thedas.

Modifié par Noatz, 18 mars 2011 - 12:08 .


#152
Dark Specie

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arnett001 wrote...
the guy who is hunting the serial killer are really the only entirely good mages


Him? Really? You must've missed that part where it's revealed that his only reason for doing it was that he was disappointed in his master not teaching him well enough  Image IPB

#153
JamesX

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Dark Specie wrote...

Him? Really? You must've missed that part where it's revealed that his only reason for doing it was that he was disappointed in his master not teaching him well enough  Image IPB

Or the methods he employeed to achieve that end >.>;

#154
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I completely agree with the OP. Methinks it's a failing of the plot due to cut corners.

Like others here I felt sorry for most of the mages who where trying to do the right thing and not giving in to the demonic realm / the dark side of blood magic. Anders acted on his own and killed one of the few high ranking people who was on my side - so I killed him for it. Then as the battle progresses all the mages turn to blood magic / become abominations and I have to kill them all anyway! Grr! Talk about biting the hand that feeds you. So frustrating. Next time I'll just slaughter them all because I now know they can't control themselves.

#155
frylock23

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"Hubris seems to be a huge issue with most mages. Even Anders has it to the point he won't listen to reason either. That's why he lies to Hawke because he knows what he plans is wrong and he doesn't wnat him/her talking him out of doing what he is going to do."

So, is it any coincidence that there's a massive Pride Demon named Hybris sitting underneath all of Kirkwall? Image IPB

At any rate, I see Kirkwall as a trainwreck from start to finish.  In Ferelden, we saw mages being taken from their families at a young age and forced into the Circle, but we also know that mages leave the Circle temporarily from time to time to do something or other on official business.  We see a Knight Commander and First Enchanter who are genuinely trying to work around each other and not directly at odds.  We run into plenty of mages who aren't evil corrupt blood mages,

But then, Ferelden's Circle isn't in reality a giant prison where they lobotomize you for looking funny like Kirkwall's seems to be have been because everyone assumes that you're guilty until proven innocent.

In Kirkwall, you never see mages outside the Gallows unless they're in hiding or have some kind of powerful protection to keep them from being frog-marched to the Gallows and nice, stuffy cell.  It would have been bad enough that Meredith is clearly a dictatorial, controlling tyrant, but she also seems to have gathered the very best of the worst templars under her command.  Let's face it, when Cullen is a reasonable guy, you know you've stepped into a world of true zealots.

And when you isolate a group of people so totally from all the rest of the world, they start to behave as if their little ivory tower of rarified magical academia is all there is to reality.  When all you can do is study without having to really see the consequences of that study in a real-world manner, does blood magic start to seem unreasonable?  Look at today's college profs, they spout all kinds of crazy, impractical stuff because they have sequestered themselves in their ivory tower world by choice and have forgotten what the real world is like.  Things that look good on paper or seem sound in theory seem a lot less dangerous.  In short, you have an entire class of very powerful people who lack any sense of real perspective.

I kept telling myself that it was the mages' situation in Kirkwall that was poisonous more than the realities of their gifts.  After all, two of the most important people in Hawke's life (father and sister) were mages for years and never once succumbed to temptation.  If couple of apostates can remain uncorrupt, then it's clearly not the mages themselves that are pre-disposed to corruption.  That's when I start examining how their day-to-day existence is different.  Basically, they're a bunch of sheltered academics who are being treated with enough suspicion to make paranoia and fear major parts of their everyday lives who have no concept of life in the real world and are being pushed into desparate actions. 

#156
highcastle

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frylock23 wrote...

"Hubris seems to be a huge issue with most mages. Even Anders has it to the point he won't listen to reason either. That's why he lies to Hawke because he knows what he plans is wrong and he doesn't wnat him/her talking him out of doing what he is going to do."

So, is it any coincidence that there's a massive Pride Demon named Hybris sitting underneath all of Kirkwall? Image IPB

At any rate, I see Kirkwall as a trainwreck from start to finish.  In Ferelden, we saw mages being taken from their families at a young age and forced into the Circle, but we also know that mages leave the Circle temporarily from time to time to do something or other on official business.  We see a Knight Commander and First Enchanter who are genuinely trying to work around each other and not directly at odds.  We run into plenty of mages who aren't evil corrupt blood mages,

But then, Ferelden's Circle isn't in reality a giant prison where they lobotomize you for looking funny like Kirkwall's seems to be have been because everyone assumes that you're guilty until proven innocent.

In Kirkwall, you never see mages outside the Gallows unless they're in hiding or have some kind of powerful protection to keep them from being frog-marched to the Gallows and nice, stuffy cell.  It would have been bad enough that Meredith is clearly a dictatorial, controlling tyrant, but she also seems to have gathered the very best of the worst templars under her command.  Let's face it, when Cullen is a reasonable guy, you know you've stepped into a world of true zealots.

And when you isolate a group of people so totally from all the rest of the world, they start to behave as if their little ivory tower of rarified magical academia is all there is to reality.  When all you can do is study without having to really see the consequences of that study in a real-world manner, does blood magic start to seem unreasonable?  Look at today's college profs, they spout all kinds of crazy, impractical stuff because they have sequestered themselves in their ivory tower world by choice and have forgotten what the real world is like.  Things that look good on paper or seem sound in theory seem a lot less dangerous.  In short, you have an entire class of very powerful people who lack any sense of real perspective.

I kept telling myself that it was the mages' situation in Kirkwall that was poisonous more than the realities of their gifts.  After all, two of the most important people in Hawke's life (father and sister) were mages for years and never once succumbed to temptation.  If couple of apostates can remain uncorrupt, then it's clearly not the mages themselves that are pre-disposed to corruption.  That's when I start examining how their day-to-day existence is different.  Basically, they're a bunch of sheltered academics who are being treated with enough suspicion to make paranoia and fear major parts of their everyday lives who have no concept of life in the real world and are being pushed into desparate actions. 


QFT. You hit just about every point I would've made. I'd also like to add that most of the blood mages we see in the story are pushed to this path through circumstance. Not all of them, for sure. There are definitely bad seeds like Quentin who are just damaged irreparably. But there are others who use blood magic when their backs are against the wall. And I think part of the reason it never goes well for them is the thin Veil in Kirkwall. It must make it easier for demons to slip in.

That being said, not every mage we meet is corrupt. Look at the half-elven kid. If you send him to the Dalish and then free him from his nightmare, he seems to turn out alright. We don't know what his future will hold, but at least he doesn't turn to blood magic. And he gets the hell out of Kirkwall, which if the Band of Three are anything to go by, is probably not a safe place for any mage.

#157
In Exile

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errant_knight wrote...
Yep. It leaves me wondering which lore is true, Origins, or DA2, because while I sympathized greatly with mages in Ferelden, while still understanding the templar position, here I just wanted to kill them all, except Cullen and Thrask.


I think they're one and the same.

What did we see in DA:O? Jowan is a blood mage right form the start, right under Irving's eyes. Even worse, Uldred is a blood mage and trains a bloodmage rebellion.

If there's anything we can say about DA:O, it's that the only reason it didn't get out of hand was that the mages were so incompetent at their demonology. Kirkwall mages seem a lot better and more subtle at using their blood magic, but I don't think DA:O mages were better by any stretch.

We just didn't see many normal mages (and there were - Alain, that incompetent noble mage you could go after in Act 3) partly because of how stupidly oppresive the circle was in Kirkwall.

#158
UKZenosis

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One thing I Found Interesting, considering what I know after a couple of play throughs, Yes I hated the mages, the only ones I liked was either my Hawke Mage or Bethany, the others were willing to kill anyone who disagreed with them, Too be honest in the end I wanted to kill the Templars and the Mages, Throughout Hawkes time in Kirkwall s/he was used by both sides, s/he was also used by the Viscount and the Arishok.

#159
Caladors

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To degrees.
It wasn't the quests that informed me on how bad things were it was the ingame commentary that chill my blood to the bone.
Does anyone remember the guy talking to his betrothed who became tranquil in the gallows?
“Name don't you remember it's me Name2?”
“I do not know you”
“But I love you Name”
“Talk to Knight Captain Cullian he is the only one that can command me”
When you can't remember there names it does take something out of it.

And the one time Anders says something that made me really hate the Templar.
“Have you been raped by a Templar? I haven't but I am lucky”
Then like any good horror movie your mind percolates what could have cause that blood on the wall.
And you think about all of these Templar and how they always wear that helm remain anonymous.
You start to think of the tranquil.
Would they object to sexual congress?
No.
But would it be rape?
Yes.

With all of the blood magic I did find it hard to side with the mage's but think about the above for just a little.
Let it, percolate.

Only ten second think about what Anders has said about that.
And about how tranquil maybe treated.
Just ten seconds is all I am asking.

Now that you have had that ten seconds.
Do you see there desperation?

#160
jjbens

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Templars are good they keep order its the blood mages and the knight commander who ruined the peace.

#161
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jjbens wrote...

Almost everything in dragon age 2 made me hate the mages. 1) your sister and andres alway complain about everything. 2) it seems like very single mage uses blood magic to summon countless demons to kill you.3) andres decides to blowup the chantry out of no where and start a war. and last if you do decide to help the mages there leader turn into a fat demon and attacks you.


I hated everyone at the end. I would have gladly taken the Arishok's side and burned the place to the ground. Good thing it was never a choice. :P

#162
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PurebredCorn wrote...

jjbens wrote...

Almost everything in dragon age 2 made me hate the mages. 1) your sister and andres alway complain about everything. 2) it seems like very single mage uses blood magic to summon countless demons to kill you.3) andres decides to blowup the chantry out of no where and start a war. and last if you do decide to help the mages there leader turn into a fat demon and attacks you.


I hated everyone at the end. I would have gladly taken the Arishok's side and burned the place to the ground. Good thing it was never a choice. :P


You know, after the ending of the game, I almost felt like the Qun was the only way to control people and magic.

#163
jjbens

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Capt. Obvious wrote...

PurebredCorn wrote...

jjbens wrote...

Almost everything in dragon age 2 made me hate the mages. 1) your sister and andres alway complain about everything. 2) it seems like very single mage uses blood magic to summon countless demons to kill you.3) andres decides to blowup the chantry out of no where and start a war. and last if you do decide to help the mages there leader turn into a fat demon and attacks you.


I hated everyone at the end. I would have gladly taken the Arishok's side and burned the place to the ground. Good thing it was never a choice. :P


You know, after the ending of the game, I almost felt like the Qun was the only way to control people and magic.


I agree two of your companions create the problem in the story i would rather have the arishok over a thief and a terrorist atleast he has respect and honor.

#164
Nimander

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I think the people arguing that 'The Templars are right!' or 'The Mages are right!' (and not the mages have a point and they both screwed up, and ...) are really missing the point. If you make -ANY- assumptions in this story about someone being 'right' and someone being 'wrong' (on the meta level, not individual), you've already missed the whole point.

There is no White Hat.

There is no Black Hat.

(Other than obvious things like cackling demons and eeevil serial killers. I mean as a whole in the society.)

There are repressive templars and a few good templars and most are probably just doing the best they can and screwing up. There are good mages and eeevil mages, and most are just living their lives and trying to not get made Tranquil by the above bad Templars.

If you're wanting some absolute morality, black/white decision? IMO, you've already lost the entire point of the story, which is at heart a tragedy.

#165
Taura-Tierno

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Yeah. From what you see from mages in-game, siding with Meredith would've felt extremely reasonable, if she hadn't been a zealously blinded fanatic and dictator. I must say that I'm a bit disappointed in thow many mages used blood magic ... in DA:O it was very uncommon, but in Kirkwall it seems more the norm than the exception. I was especially appalled when Orsini resorted to it when I sided with the mages ... it didn't really prove Meredith right, since she was possessed, but it did prove Fenris right. His hatred, at least, was nothing compared to Meredith's. :P
It proved Fenris right

#166
DrGulag

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Atleast Meredith had a reason. Years of lyrium consumption combined with the artifact and it was always going to end in tears.

The first enchanter had sociopathic tendencies.

#167
vigna

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Siding with the Qun would have been the proper choice.

#168
Nimander

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DrGulag wrote...
Atleast Meredith had a reason. Years of lyrium consumption combined with the artifact and it was always going to end in tears. The first enchanter had sociopathic tendencies.


So did Meredith.  Lots of Templars eat lyrium and don't become what Meredith was -before she got the idol-.  She was always a Knight Templar (pun not intended), and not nice.  You hear from the very start how harsh the mage conditions are, and how a lot of them are made Tranquil and so on that shouldn't be.

Simply because she wasn't that Alrik guy (name might not be right) who wanted to Tranquil all the mages and then rape the girls doesn't mean she wasn't a really bad customer. :)

#169
VettoRyouzou

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Funny enough it felt the other way around to me.

#170
Lumikki

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vigna wrote...

Siding with the Qun would have been the proper choice.

How come? They pretty much kills everyone who doesn't agree with they vision how things should be.

Modifié par Lumikki, 20 mars 2011 - 04:30 .


#171
Arppis

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Mages are being pushed, they push back. That's why they resort to extreme measures.

#172
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Lumikki wrote...

vigna wrote...

Siding with the Qun would have been the proper choice.

How come? They pretty much kills everyone who doesn't agree with they vision how things should be.


Exactly. No disbelievers, no chaos.

#173
Aithieel

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If you play as mage and beeing threated by Meredith it's hard to like templars.

#174
Dean_the_Young

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Nimander wrote...

DrGulag wrote...
Atleast Meredith had a reason. Years of lyrium consumption combined with the artifact and it was always going to end in tears. The first enchanter had sociopathic tendencies.


So did Meredith.  Lots of Templars eat lyrium and don't become what Meredith was -before she got the idol-.  She was always a Knight Templar (pun not intended), and not nice.  You hear from the very start how harsh the mage conditions are, and how a lot of them are made Tranquil and so on that shouldn't be.

Simply because she wasn't that Alrik guy (name might not be right) who wanted to Tranquil all the mages and then rape the girls doesn't mean she wasn't a really bad customer. :)

The insanity wasn't about regular lyrium, but rather because of the evil magics of the Lyrium Idol in particular.

Meredith went from harsh, but not crazy before the Idol, to harsh and crazy afterwards. Which is also when she started doing things like Tranquilizing political dissidents.

#175
UKZenosis

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Question For you all,

Does Choosing the Blood Mage Abilities with Hawke have an effect on how the story plays out, or does it make no difference like in DA:O?