210 réponses à ce sujet

[SurelyForth]

I think the moving in conversation is a work saving mechanic for the game and not really part of some master plan of Anders'. Although I'd like to see that.

Step 1: Talk about cat like a crazy person.
Step 2: Talk about spirit I invited into my body. Like a crazy person.
Step 3: Flirt.
Step 5: Get mad if flirt is turned down or rescind flirt.
Step 6: Wait three years.
Step 7: Almost kill/kill innocent mage in fit of demonic possession.
Step 8: KISS
Step 9: Sex and declarations of love.
Step 10: Get key to estate and coast for the rest of the relationship.

Addendum
Step 11: Be in relationship for three years. (Maybe less? Pay attention for signs that Hawke is getting over death of mother).
Step 12: Get key to estate and coast for the rest of the relationship.
Step 13: Make nice with that creepy dwarf and his father.
Step 14: Learn to play the lute.
Step 15: Make a note of Hawke's namedate. (Don't blow up Chantry on Hawke's namedate).
Step 16: Make a note of anniversary.
Step 17: Practice puppy dog eyes.
Step 18: Profit!

Modifié par SurelyForth, 17 mars 2011 - 06:32 .

[Luridel]

I definitely got the impression that Anders loved Hawke. In some situations (I'm not sure what a rivalmance turns out like), he may very well have used Hawke, but I don't think that means Anders didn't love Hawke.

"I wanted to tell you. But what if you stopped me? Or worse, what if you wanted to help? I couldn't let you do that." The 'or worse' is what sells it for me.

[Aggie Punbot]

What happened to step 4?

[mellifera]

Anders ripped it to shreds then ate it when Justice assumed direct control for the first time. The number 4 is very unjust, it had to pay.

[Solarain]

What gets me is, in Awakening, Justice knew the thoughts of the body he inhabited, and yearned for that kind of love. He wasn't as vengeful then either. It really got me that he really wasn't Justice, he was vengeance, and appropriately named some of Anders spells. But justice is not vengeance, so I have no clue why they made Justice go in the direction of the bad side. Not only was (misappropriately named) Justice corrupting Anders, who was formerly so cool to hang out with in Awakenings with all the great humor that was tanked in this game, but Justice, himself, became corrupt. So Justice also duped Anders, who probably thought like I did, that Justice deserved a new "home."

[SurelyForth]

yukidama wrote...

Anders ripped it to shreds then ate it when Justice assumed direct control for the first time. The number 4 is very unjust, it had to pay.

This. It probably involved Anders waiting around the clinic with a kitten on his shoulder, the better to woo unsuspecting Hawke with. But Justice felt that such a gesture would not be playing fair, especially since it was solidly within in the "I Am A Dangerous Man Who Will Break Your Heart!" stage. 

Modifié par SurelyForth, 17 mars 2011 - 07:35 .

[Neleothesze]

Hawke is a dog person, Anders is a cat person... it would never have worked out anyway!

The crazy talk and terrorist acts are just excuses.

Modifié par Indolence, 17 mars 2011 - 10:54 .

[Luridel]

TS2Aggie wrote...

What happened to step 4?

Well, step 18 is profit!

[leggywillow]

SurelyForth wrote...

I think the moving in conversation is a work saving mechanic for the game and not really part of some master plan of Anders'. Although I'd like to see that.

Step 1: Talk about cat like a crazy person.
Step 2: Talk about spirit I invited into my body. Like a crazy person.
Step 3: Flirt.
Step 5: Get mad if flirt is turned down or rescind flirt.
Step 6: Wait three years.
Step 7: Almost kill/kill innocent mage in fit of demonic possession.
Step 8: KISS
Step 9: Sex and declarations of love.
Step 10: Get key to estate and coast for the rest of the relationship.

Addendum
Step 11: Be in relationship for three years. (Maybe less? Pay attention for signs that Hawke is getting over death of mother).
Step 12: Get key to estate and coast for the rest of the relationship.
Step 13: Make nice with that creepy dwarf and his father.
Step 14: Learn to play the lute.
Step 15: Make a note of Hawke's namedate. (Don't blow up Chantry on Hawke's namedate).
Step 16: Make a note of anniversary.
Step 17: Practice puppy dog eyes.
Step 18: Profit!

Oh it was a nefarious plan to be sure.

Anders is simply devious.

[GunClubGirl]

Because the intimacy and conversation is so limited in the romance (game flaw) I can see how someone would feel this, and ANY of the romances were "empty" and the person was being used. All of the companions had agendas to fulfill. But I think Anders' love is genuine, especially at the end if you forgive him.

[Sarah1281]

Step 15: Make a note of Hawke's namedate. (Don't blow up Chantry on Hawke's namedate).

That's true love right there.

What gets me is, in Awakening, Justice knew the thoughts of the body he inhabited, and yearned for that kind of love. He wasn't as vengeful then either. 

Presumably Kristoff was much less vengeful as well. Plus, Kristoff was dead and so while Justice could see the memories, he was alone in there and not constantly feeding on Kristoff's negative emotions.

[Medhia Nox]

You guys really don't think that Anders perverted Justice? Seriously?

He was a psychotic madman - he used you if you were in a relationship. You guys all seem to be suffering from some battered spouse syndrome.

"Oh, he only hit me because I talked back."

[Darkannex]

Hardly the same, Mechia Nox.
Unless the husband was actually possessed. In which case, I guess it works.
I really hate 'real life' similarities being cited as examples (not you, personally, just in general). This is a fantasy world, and no, Anders is not Bin Laden, or Tim McVeigh. Because neither of them were possessed by spirits of Justice and losing their minds as a result. To me, that comparison demeans 'real' evil of reality.

Anyway, yes, Anders' ANGER corrupted Justice, which in turn corrupts him. It's a closed circle with no way out.

I believe the human Anders does love Hawke. But I also believe he has a freak on his back (Justice/Vengeance) who has no room for such things.

[Trophonius]

Darkannex wrote...

Anyway, yes, Anders' ANGER corrupted Justice, which in turn corrupts him. It's a closed circle with no way out.

I believe the human Anders does love Hawke. But I also believe he has a freak on his back (Justice/Vengeance) who has no room for such things.

Which is pretty freaking ironic if you ask me, considering how envious he seemed to be of Kristoff and Aura's love. It's this reaction that made me think he wouldn't disapprove, but would instead be supportive.

[Sarah1281]

Medhia Nox wrote...

You guys really don't think that Anders perverted Justice? Seriously?

He was a psychotic madman - he used you if you were in a relationship. You guys all seem to be suffering from some battered spouse syndrome.

"Oh, he only hit me because I talked back."

Anders tells you straight out that his anger was what corrupted Justice and, in turn, the corrupted Justice corrupted him. They're just bad for each other.

I know he uses Hawke and I'm not happy about that (and in my game, he ended up dying for what he did. The Chantry-explosion, not the using. I'm not that petty). I really don't see why trying to figure out if Anders actually loved Hawke but put his mission first and treated her horribly or was simply using her makes us akin to battered wives.

[Anarya]

Anders does love Hawke, but she/he will never be the most important thing in his life (and I think Hawke actually says something like this to him). Anders has demonstrated that he will do anything to achieve his goal. It probably kills him inside to use Hawke the way he does, but he does it anyway for what he sees as the greater good. So yes, he does manipulate, deceive and use Hawke, but I believe he still loves her/him.

I don't see him as a madman. Fervent zealot yes, insane, no.

His romance is so deliciously tragic. My Hawke couldn't bring herself to kill him but she will never be able to forgive him. Drama!!

[Anarya]

Trophonius wrote...

Darkannex wrote...

Anyway, yes, Anders' ANGER corrupted Justice, which in turn corrupts him. It's a closed circle with no way out.

I believe the human Anders does love Hawke. But I also believe he has a freak on his back (Justice/Vengeance) who has no room for such things.

Which is pretty freaking ironic if you ask me, considering how envious he seemed to be of Kristoff and Aura's love. It's this reaction that made me think he wouldn't disapprove, but would instead be supportive.

It's kind of pointless to attempt to draw a line between Anders and Justice in the end I think. They aren't separate beings anymore, they're one. They probably both love Hawke but Justice disapproves of the feelings they both have. That's my interpretation anyway.

[Darkannex]

Of course Anarya...that is only if you believe what Anders says. And of course...he'd NEVER lie to us!

I am not fully convinced they are one. They may well be, but I still think of it at this stage as a hostile takeover. Anders still waffles back and forth way too much.

[WidowMaker9394]

Maybe Hawke's and Anders's love for each other will cleanse Justice as he yearned for love after envying Kristoffs feelings for his wife...

[panamakira]

I think he does fall in love with Hawke but he does end up using him/her either way. He's fighting a loosing battle with Justice and even accomplishes some emotional blackmail.....

[Sarah1281]

If Justice and Anders were one then why would Anders be having blackouts when Justice comes out? In the rivalmance dialogue you have after Anders starts trying to give his possessions away, you can almost convince Anders that he still has time to reconsider what he's planning and then Justice comes out and tells you to go away. Sure, if you say it's Anders' decision Justice claims that he IS Anders but since when Anders comes back he doesn't remember what's been going and on and confesses to blackouts...I really don't think they're quite as united as Anders claims.

[LastFadingSmile]

Enh, everyone is always using everyone else. Every single companion your acquire calls on you to "felicitate me!" in some fashion, be it exacting revenge on their master, their family's killers, to fix demonic mirrors, incite war with martial races in the name of profit... None of them are free of guilt in that respect. Anders' case feels different because of what he is, and like a bigger betrayal because of where it all ends up -- and I'm not downplaying or condoning his actions, or likening them in scale to the demands of the rest of them -- but all of them are using you at some point. Doesn't mean any of them don't genuinely like/love/respect you. Human relationships are naturally symbiotic, give-and-take. Some just take more than their share.

I tend to think my Hawke was using Anders as much as he was using her, but it was more emotional usage. By act 3, she lost her entire family; he was the closest thing she had left. Even as they fought over his final request -- even as she accused him of blackmailing her to get his way -- there was always an primal and tragic need between the two of them. Anders needed her in order to stay sane; she needed Anders in order to feel...anything. Their love was doomed from the outset, and they both knew it, but they couldn't help themselves. At a certain point you tire of swimming against the tide and you just let go, for good or for ill. In this analogy, Anders is Hawke's flotation device.

[Sarah1281]

I don't really think that ALL of your companions are using you. Just because they need help and ask you to help them does not mean that they're using you. Anders lying about what he's doing and tricking you into not only gathering the materials to explode the Chantry but distracting the Grand Cleric while he plants the bomb, however, is. Had he not emotionally blackmailed you into helping and let you decide whether to get involved or not then it wouldn't be using.

[panamakira]

Yeah I rival-manced Anders and the black-outs leave me thinking. Specially when Anders looks scared and confesses he's loosing control of Justice and that maybe Hawke is right.

The reason I spared him is because at the end I think Justice has more control at this point and/or Anders has given in to his demands for the last 6-8 years~

[Anarya]

Sarah1281 wrote...

If Justice and Anders were one then why would Anders be having blackouts when Justice comes out? In the rivalmance dialogue you have after Anders starts trying to give his possessions away, you can almost convince Anders that he still has time to reconsider what he's planning and then Justice comes out and tells you to go away. Sure, if you say it's Anders' decision Justice claims that he IS Anders but since when Anders comes back he doesn't remember what's been going and on and confesses to blackouts...I really don't think they're quite as united as Anders claims.

Is he lying about the blackouts though? I confess I've only done the friendmance so far so I wasn't aware of that dialogue but you could easily make the argument that he's lying about how separate they are until you get the line about them being one in the scene where you can decide to execute him. Or maybe they get more unified as time goes on. It's hard to say and I can see the arguments either way.