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[Medhia Nox]

Darkannex - how do you know there's no way out? He lies to you and tells you that there's a ritual to separate the two of them. Even if that doesn't exist - you know the way out? Tranquil. If him becoming Tranquil saved all those people he murdered - and saved all the people soon to be caught up in his evil act - I'd do it in a heartbeat.

As for real life comparisons - if my art cannot reflect on my life (we can debate whether a game is art) then it has no relevance. The "spirit of Justice" is an artistic expression of "Belief in an Ideal."

So, would you seriously consider someone's comment of: "The Devil made me do it?" Or does the fact that the person wouldn't have glowing eyes and sometimes speak in a different language make you instantly call shenanigans?

Didn't he take Justice into him? Was he forced?

Anders is to blame.

====

And I'm sorry - but a person that lies to you constantly and uses you to find the ingredients to make a bomb - then uses you to sneak into a building to blow it up and start a war - doesn't love you.

The fact that you're all excusing it away as "Justice"  - "Oh, my dear Anders isn't to blame - he wouldn't have done this if it wasn't for mean o'le Justice." 

Anders ruined Justice - not the other way around.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 17 mars 2011 - 06:11 .

[Darkannex]

That could also be, Anarya...but the question is why would he have to lie about the blackouts? As time goes on, the codex shows Anders deteriorating from act to act...to where Justice becomes more prevalent and Anders not so much so. To where by Act3, he cannot even get the energy to engage in banters as he had in the past (like the best ways to kill templars banter with Varric)

From the start, DA2 introduces the unreliable narrator. From Varric exagerrating the story (Bethany's ... assets, as well as Hawke's entrance to the story), and I think that follows well into leading Anders as another unreliable narrator. You really cannot trust his words...which is why I go by codex and actions in game. I find them more reliable.

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I don't really think that ALL of your companions are using you. Just because they need help and ask you to help them does not mean that they're using you. Anders lying about what he's doing and tricking you into not only gathering the materials to explode the Chantry but distracting the Grand Cleric while he plants the bomb, however, is. Had he not emotionally blackmailed you into helping and let you decide whether to get involved or not then it wouldn't be using.

Agreed, though Isabela is also lying and using you.  Her deception is more understandable, though, because it's out of fear for her life.

[Thiefy]

While I agree with you Medhia Nox, you are basically saying that someone who loves you will never hurt you, and that's not really true. In an ideal world maybe, but not in the real world and certainly not in the DA universe.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Anders, I think, did love Hawke. Try the rival romance out. If Anders was really just aiming to use Hawke, there's no way he would have used someone who was completely against his goals from day one.

[Sarah1281]

If him becoming Tranquil saved all those people he murdered - and saved all the people soon to be caught up in his evil act - I'd do it in a heartbeat. 

It would be far easier to just kill him...which you can do at the end. Would trying to make an abomination Tranquil even work? 

And here is the black-out scene. It really doesn't seem like he's faking it...unless he's going through a very elaborate and entirely unnecessary charade. I think Anders is actually scarier if he can't stop the seperate entity of Vengeance from coming out and has no idea what's been going on during those times.

[Medhia Nox]

This isn't "hurting" you Thief-Of-Hearts.

This isn't him promising you he would stop drinking but he sneaks down to the bar every night.
This isn't him spending all your joint saving on gambling debts.
This isn't even him telling you that he's going out with the guys and is actually sleeping with someone.

This is tricking you and implicating you in the murder of thousands.

======

And funny enough - Sebastian says it best (I paraphrase): Anders is going to hurt you. He cares more about his ambitions than he does about you."

So - great, Anders loves you, but he loves killing thousands of people in a terrorist act more. If you're all 'good with that' more power to you.

[Darkannex]

Medhia Nox wrote...
Darkannex - how do you know there's no way out? He lies to you and tells you that there's a ritual to separate the two of them. Even if that doesn't exist - you know the way out? Tranquil. If him becoming Tranquil saved all those people he murdered - and saved all the people soon to be caught up in his evil act - I'd do it in a heartbeat. 
As for real life comparisons - if my art cannot reflect on my life (we can debate whether a game is art) then it has no relevance. The "spirit of Justice" is an artistic expression of "Belief in an Ideal."
So, would you seriously consider someone's comment of: "The Devil made me do it?" Or does the fact that the person wouldn't have glowing eyes and sometimes speak in a different language make you instantly call shenanigans? 
Didn't he take Justice into him? Was he forced? 
Anders is to blame. 
====
And I'm sorry - but a person that lies to you constantly and uses you to find the ingredients to make a bomb - then uses you to sneak into a building to blow it up and start a war - doesn't love you.
The fact that you're all excusing it away as "Justice"  - "Oh, my dear Anders isn't to blame - he wouldn't have done this if it wasn't for mean o'le Justice." 
Anders ruined Justice - not the other way around. 

I don't think anyone says that Anders didn't corrupt justice. But the fact of the matter is that going by what the short story says (which is an official source so far as I know, I could be wrong), Anders took Justice in without understanding that this would happen. Justice needed a host, and Anders offered. Was there selfish motivation? I'm sure. He says there were things he admired in Justice and wished he had. Did he want Justice so he could become a terror and create mass destruction? No. He and Justice were friends and allies in Awakenings, and judging by actions in Awakenings, there is no way that Anders would be behaving in the way he was without another explanation. 

And in this fantasy world, I do buy 'the devil made me do it'…because demons do exist, and in existing are able to influence actions in a way that I don't honestly believe they can influence people in real life. Just like I believe in fireballs coming from the sky at a mage's call in DA, and not in real life. Anders is posessed by a DEMON of Vengeance. 

As for how I know there is no way out, I was stating that the cycle started, where anger corrupts justice to vengeance….which then corrupts Anders further, is a closed circle. Each is feeding into the other with no outlet. As for their being no way out - I go by the information I found in game. I have yet to see a successful resolution to a posessed mage. (Connor withstanding.)  But as you say, this was a willing posession, so conventional means may not work. 

As for art inspiring life-yes…but that does not mean art IS life, and that immediate direct correlations can be drawn inasmuch as this drawing of a building = a real building. I don't believe that, but I acknowledge that you may. I do not compare Anders to other real life terrorists, because I think it belittles the true evil of those real life terrorists. 
And Anders did ruin justice, but not intentionally. That's the tragedy inherent in this tale. Attempting to do something good, an evil end results. Ander has well justified anger, both by the way he was treated by the Templars, as well as the Wardens post Awakenings. The fact that such a justified anger corrupted a spirit was not something anyone could know. 

An argument could justifiably be made that he was foolish to give himself over to a fade spirit, being a mage. But you cannot say that Anders without vengeance would be prone to the acts he has perpetrated post posession. His dialog in Awakenings shows this. 

Because I can view Anders outside of Justice, I find it believable that Anders the man can love Hawke, but that Justice as a separate entity does not. 

Modifié par Darkannex, 17 mars 2011 - 06:34 .

[Sarah1281]

So - great, Anders loves you, but he loves killing thousands of people in a terrorist act more. If you're all 'good with that' more power to you.

And whose to say we're all "good with that"? I think Anders loved Hawke but at the end it was a very unhealthy relationship for her and she wasn't about to stay with him after what he did. That doesn't mean he didn't love her, just that he wasn't capable of putting her before his need to kill innocents to spark a Thedas-wide revolution. It doesn't fit the romantic 'love is more important than everything' viewpoint but there you have it. You can think he loved Hawke without thinking that the relationship was really good for her and she should stay with him forever, you know.

[Thiefy]

Medhia - No matter how you slice it, it is the same concept, larger, more damning scale. No ever argue he wouldn't hurt you (hell everyone, including Anders tells you this several times), or that he was one arch demon short of a blight, and very few people were "ok" with is, but the questioning being asked is "did he ever care for you?"

i think the answer is yes, if you pursued a romance with him (and some would argue even if you didn't). Hawke wasn't just an ends to the mean, because Anders can accomplish that himself - with or without the romance. Fact still remains that should you pursue a romance, yes, the EMOTIONS are still their, regardless of the deeds.

[Sarah1281]

And in this fantasy world, I do buy 'the devil made me do it'…because demons do exist, and in existing are able to influence actions in a way that I don't honestly believe they can influence people in real life.

That's a good point. I don't really see people blaming Connor for Redcliffe's destruction as that was clearly the work of the demon possessing him and that he wasn't even fully aware of except that she made him do bad things and he was scared of her.

[Anarya]

Sarah1281 wrote...

If him becoming Tranquil saved all those people he murdered - and saved all the people soon to be caught up in his evil act - I'd do it in a heartbeat. 

It would be far easier to just kill him...which you can do at the end. Would trying to make an abomination Tranquil even work? 

And here is the black-out scene. It really doesn't seem like he's faking it...unless he's going through a very elaborate and entirely unnecessary charade. I think Anders is actually scarier if he can't stop the seperate entity of Vengeance from coming out and has no idea what's been going on during those times.

Oh jeez, that scene breaks my heart

Ok I don't think he's faking, but I think he and Justice might not even be aware of how separate (or not) they actually are. I think they get progressively more united as time goes on, and I personally think Anders has just as big an effect on Justice as Justice has on Anders. If it's just Anders being taken over by Justice then the scenes where you can talk him down from things don't make sense, especially if he's unconscious during these scenes. Justice even says in that linked scene "I AM Anders". I don't see them as separate entities anymore and I can't really blame either one of them for what happened when they merged. Sure Anders' anger turned Justice into a demon but you can see what Justice turned Anders into right there in the game. It's just tragic for all parties.

[Koffeegirl]

Medhia Nox wrote...

This isn't "hurting" you Thief-Of-Hearts.

This isn't him promising you he would stop drinking but he sneaks down to the bar every night.
This isn't him spending all your joint saving on gambling debts.
This isn't even him telling you that he's going out with the guys and is actually sleeping with someone.

This is tricking you and implicating you in the murder of thousands.

======

And funny enough - Sebastian says it best (I paraphrase): Anders is going to hurt you. He cares more about his ambitions than he does about you."

So - great, Anders loves you, but he loves killing thousands of people in a terrorist act more. If you're all 'good with that' more power to you.

When does Sebastian say that in the game? I don't think I ever got that scene.

[Sarah1281]

Anarya wrote...
Ok I don't think he's faking, but I think he and Justice might not even be aware of how separate (or not) they actually are. I think they get progressively more united as time goes on, and I personally think Anders has just as big an effect on Justice as Justice has on Anders. If it's just Anders being taken over by Justice then the scenes where you can talk him down from things don't make sense, especially if he's unconscious during these scenes. Justice even says in that linked scene "I AM Anders". I don't see them as separate entities anymore and I can't really blame either one of them for what happened when they merged. Sure Anders' anger turned Justice into a demon but you can see what Justice turned Anders into right there in the game. It's just tragic for all parties.

Yeah it's really hard to tell who connected they are, especially since they don't seem to be able to keep it straight. I think it's more of a partial merge than two seperate entities sharing a body or a complete merge. I suppose you can see bringing Anders back after Justice tries to kill that girl who is freaked out by him as Anders taking over for Justice but since Anders was the original personality, seeing that was more of a relief than anything sad like when Justice took over for Anders. He did say that he remembered what happened then when he told Merrill that he saw her future and described not being able to stop himself. Was that in Act 2, though? He does get worse over the years.

[Ryzaki]

He loves Hawke.

That doesn't mean he wouldn't use/hurt Hawke.

So yes. He does really love Hawke even while using him.

God his romance tore my heart out.

[GunClubGirl]

I don't think he lied to Hawke to "use" Hawke. I think he did it to protect Hawke, so she (or he) would NOT be implicated in what happened. Protection out of love. I disagree that he cares about the so-called "terrorist act" more. These are desperate times. Being tranquil is a fate worse than death. The mages ARE fighting for their lives. Taking desperate measures that he thought (or Justice thought...) would force a resolution does not mean Hawke is "less important". If anything, the only thing that would make it seem like he doesn't love Hawke is if he really did want to be killed in the end - because if he loved Hawke he wouldn't "leave" her like that. However, I do not buy in to the idea that he wanted to die. I think he considered it a possibility to happen, but had some faith that love would conquer all and he would be forgiven. And in my gameplay, that's how it worked out.

[Medhia Nox]

He (Sebastian) said it to me during a conversation right before I completed the quest to make the bomb. He leaves a message to speak privately with you at the Chantry. Of course - you probably have to be friends with him.

====

@Theif-of-Hearts: I'm sorry, I don't see "tricked into assisting with murder" the same as "tricked into being on the losing end of adultery"

As I said - ultimately Hawke can hold him/herself responsible for the terrorist act because thematically - Hawke's love blinds him/her to the reality that Anders is really a sick individual that should have been put away before he could commit his evil.

Of course - the game designers never give us the choice - which I think is a huge failure on their part. What they SHOULD have done - is let us kill Anders, but then the underground turns him into a martyr and the events happen anyway (if they wanted to tell their story so badly) so yeah - we could have stopped the Chantry from being destroyed - and they could have had their story.

====

Do you guys "blame" Wynne for her good acts? She had a spirit of Faith inside her - did it make her good? Or was she good - and she kept the spirit of Faith pure?

It's interesting how we never "blame" anything for doing good - but as soon as someone does something evil and there's even the slightest "defense" for it - we jump all over it.

In our world Darkannex - we have things like "crime of passion" or "twinkie defense" - people blaming anything under the sun so they don't have to take responsibility for what they did.

===

Fantasy is very metaphorical to me - "Taking in Justice" is symbolic - not literal. Justice for the crimes committed against an oppressed people - justice, turned to vengeance, because of Anders hatred. We're presented with literal examples to (potentially) discuss real world relevancy - just as the Bible ought to be seen, the stories taken literally do not hold up - but as lessons to be learned, they are invaluable. The problem comes in when people try to over think them as literal examples.

It's important to remember that spirits in Dragon Age are nothing until they attach to a human "ideal". So ultimately - they're really nothing at all - they are as ephemeral as "the Devil" and his ability to make someone do something in the real world. A rage demon can convince you to be full of rage (and then possess you) but he can't possess a peaceful man.

This is just my take on it btw - I'm not proclaiming truth here (despite the adamant nature of my writing).

====

As for Conner - he was a kid, not a man who ought to know better. He was also kept ignorant to the dangers that faced him by his mother. And yes - he was responsible - interesting that his father sends him to Tevinter and not a Circle at the end of Origins.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 17 mars 2011 - 07:08 .

[Anarya]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Anarya wrote...
Ok I don't think he's faking, but I think he and Justice might not even be aware of how separate (or not) they actually are. I think they get progressively more united as time goes on, and I personally think Anders has just as big an effect on Justice as Justice has on Anders. If it's just Anders being taken over by Justice then the scenes where you can talk him down from things don't make sense, especially if he's unconscious during these scenes. Justice even says in that linked scene "I AM Anders". I don't see them as separate entities anymore and I can't really blame either one of them for what happened when they merged. Sure Anders' anger turned Justice into a demon but you can see what Justice turned Anders into right there in the game. It's just tragic for all parties.

Yeah it's really hard to tell who connected they are, especially since they don't seem to be able to keep it straight. I think it's more of a partial merge than two seperate entities sharing a body or a complete merge. I suppose you can see bringing Anders back after Justice tries to kill that girl who is freaked out by him as Anders taking over for Justice but since Anders was the original personality, seeing that was more of a relief than anything sad like when Justice took over for Anders. He did say that he remembered what happened then when he told Merrill that he saw her future and described not being able to stop himself. Was that in Act 2, though? He does get worse over the years.

A partial merge that gets more complete as time goes by. I'd agree with that.

I'm also retracting what I said earlier about thinking that both Justice and Anders love Hawke, after thinking about it further. Justice is a metaphor for all-consuming, singleminded devotion to a cause, and Anders symbolizes their humanity. There's no room for love on the freedom fighter/terrorist side of the personality. If the character were not in fantasy he'd just be a man at war with himself, and believably so.

Actually I was thinking about it too, and you can draw comparisons between Anders and Alistair in how they value their lover and their ideals. Even Alistair will put his ideals before himself and your relationship when he either leaves or dumps you. Yet no one questions whether Alistair loves the Warden if romanced. It's the same exact thing with Anders, but Anders is on a more extreme scale. Ultimately there's something more important to him than love but it doesn't mean the love wasn't there in the first place.

Not that I'm arguing that the relationship is healthy, mind you. But the love is real.

[Darkannex]

I believe that Wynne was influenced by her possession, yes. I also feel that since Wynne and her spirit were more 'sympathetic' in nature (alike) that the change was perhaps less drastic.

Unfortunately, demons in DA are not metaphorical. They possess people, they turn them into abominations, and even though in Anders' case he's a pretty abomination, the procedure and results are the same. Anders is not at this point...fully Anders. If you want to argue that Anders is not possessed or influenced by Vengeance, then that is your opinion and you are welcome to defend it. I believe differently.

Do I believe Uldred was not responsible in the end? I don't. Because he was possessed by a demon. Do I feel he made terrible choices that opened himself up to this fate? Of course I do. Just like I think Anders stepped into this decision foolishly.

Do I think the kitten loving/responsibility shirking/run away from any hint of compulsion/ Anders would have transformed this radically or this quickly without the influence of Vengeance? No.

[highcastle]

Medhia Nox, I think you raise a lot of valid points. I still think Anders as a romance option is one of the most compelling avenues in this game, but you absolutely can't discount the darker aspects of it. I think one of the things I like so much about this romance is this very question.

At the same time, you can't look at spirits and demons as purely symbolic. While "the Devil made me do it" holds no sway in this world, demons and spirits are physical creatures in Thedas. They really exist. And thus you can't precisely equate the two arguments. We've seen demons take possession before. The question that should be asked with Anders is: how much of this blowing up the Chantry thing was him and how much was Justice? He didn't go all glowy eyed during his Justice quest. At the same time, the Codex and Anders himself has stated he's losing himself to Justice.

While Anders might state at times that he and Justice are one and the same, other evidence contradicts this. In the Fade, there is only Justice. Anders is nowhere to be seen. This seems to suggest Justice as an entity is still around, still somewhat separate from Anders. Anders also says in a conversation with Merrill that being an abomination is like watching things unfold beyond your own eyes, having no power to stop it, and waking up with blood on your hands. That definitely doesn't sound like a man fully in control.

That being said, I don't think this exonerates Anders for his crimes. He still committed an act of terrorism. Whether he wouldn't have done it without Justice or not is an interesting debate, but it doesn't change what he actually did. I don't think life or romance is going to be all fluffy kittens from this point onward. You can't ignore that he did something terrible to accomplish his goals.

[Anarya]

GunClubGirl wrote...

I don't think he lied to Hawke to "use" Hawke. I think he did it to protect Hawke, so she (or he) would NOT be implicated in what happened. Protection out of love. I disagree that he cares about the so-called "terrorist act" more. These are desperate times. Being tranquil is a fate worse than death. The mages ARE fighting for their lives. Taking desperate measures that he thought (or Justice thought...) would force a resolution does not mean Hawke is "less important". If anything, the only thing that would make it seem like he doesn't love Hawke is if he really did want to be killed in the end - because if he loved Hawke he wouldn't "leave" her like that. However, I do not buy in to the idea that he wanted to die. I think he considered it a possibility to happen, but had some faith that love would conquer all and he would be forgiven. And in my gameplay, that's how it worked out.

He lied so that you wouldn't stop him. He did not protect Hawke, he made him/her an accomplice. The fact is, Hawke IS less important to him than his cause. Everything in the world is less important to him than the cause, including Hawke, himself, and even other innocents. He's very "end justify the means" about it.

[Herr Uhl]

Anarya wrote...

GunClubGirl wrote...

I don't think he lied to Hawke to "use" Hawke. I think he did it to protect Hawke, so she (or he) would NOT be implicated in what happened. Protection out of love. I disagree that he cares about the so-called "terrorist act" more. These are desperate times. Being tranquil is a fate worse than death. The mages ARE fighting for their lives. Taking desperate measures that he thought (or Justice thought...) would force a resolution does not mean Hawke is "less important". If anything, the only thing that would make it seem like he doesn't love Hawke is if he really did want to be killed in the end - because if he loved Hawke he wouldn't "leave" her like that. However, I do not buy in to the idea that he wanted to die. I think he considered it a possibility to happen, but had some faith that love would conquer all and he would be forgiven. And in my gameplay, that's how it worked out.

He lied so that you wouldn't stop him. He did not protect Hawke, he made him/her an accomplice. The fact is, Hawke IS less important to him than his cause. Everything in the world is less important to him than the cause, including Hawke, himself, and even other innocents. He's very "end justify the means" about it.

He also claimed it because he didn't want Hawke to help him, that would be even worse.

So it can be seen as he did it to protect Hawke.

[Ryzaki]

Anders said there was no one in Kirkwall he wouldn't kill to see mages fre. I believe that means Hawke as well.

That doesn't mean he doesn't love Hawke. You can love someone without twisting everything you are to conform to their desires.

[Eshaye]

Sebastian also breaks our hearts with his ridiculous vow of chastity, whatever he says has little weight considering he can't make up his own mind UNLESS a massacre happens; his family, the chantry. I don't have much respect for him at all.

Anders isn't all lilies, but Hawke knew that all along and in the case of my Hawke she is heart broken at that point, she's gained material influence but at the cost of her entire family. She's a mage so she does want everyone to be free as she has been her whole life. During her years in Kirkwall she has seen her kind battered, used and imprisoned. Yes some of them turn to horrible deeds, but it all starts somewhere. The truth of the story to me is that NO ONE is blameless. Yes Anders is a monster, but so is everyone else in the game. Attrocities are committed daily for different reasons. The difference to me with Anders is that he knows the repercussions and accepts the guilt and responsibility, if he were truly insane and taken over with the spirit of vengeance he would have felt no such thing.

My Hawke ran away with him because at this point a part of her is glad the tower went down, she would never have condoned it if she had known, she calls him a murderer when she finds out, but now that it's done it means mages get a real chance to break free. Other then her friends there isn't anything holding her to Kirkwall either and it's probably better the champion leaves the city to rebuilt itself on it's own and gain a rule free of arcane influence and very powerful people.

But to the thread's question, yes Anders loves Hawke, but if love were enough to sustain everything that we are we wouldn't have ambition to be our own person. In his case it's dangerous because of his circumstance and the spirit in him is changing him over time no matter how much he resists.Would an Anders free of the spirit have done such a thing? No, he'd probably be at the hanged man picking up bar wenches or making jokes with Varric. Normally Anders and Varric would have been best buds and imagining Varric in Awakening, is just epic... lol

[Medhia Nox]

But we've never seen demons take possession without the person allowing it.

Look at Uldred - he tortures the mages until they say yes. He can't force possession on someone without their compliance.

Anders first crime - becoming an abomination. Even Wynne is all conflicted - she considers herself an abomination, and it tears her up inside (her dialogue states this plainly) .

She had to accept the spirit of faith too - she did it at the moment before she died so that she could live.

====

As for spirits in Dragon Age - when the maker first creates them, they do nothing. They simply worship him. They're complete failures.

It's not until he makes Mortals that spirits even mean anything.

I stand by the fact that spirits are just "ideas personified". They cannot do anything that a person wasn't already willing and capable of doing.

I imagine you've not met anyone in real life with deep convictions - I promise you, they appear possessed.