210 réponses à ce sujet

[Anarya]

Ryzaki wrote...

Anders said there was no one in Kirkwall he wouldn't kill to see mages fre. I believe that means Hawke as well.

That doesn't mean he doesn't love Hawke. You can love someone without twisting everything you are to conform to their desires.

Absolutely. If stabbing Hawke in the back (in the literal sense) would set all mages free Anders/Justice would do it in a heartbeat. Anders would be emotionally destroyed by the act, but they would do it.

@Herr Uhl: But Hawke IS helping by distracting Elthina, whether s/he knows what Anders is doing or not. Hawke doesn't have to help physically plant the bomb to be an accessory. The protection argument falls apart in this light.

Modifié par Anarya, 17 mars 2011 - 07:30 .

[Eshaye]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I imagine you've not met anyone in real life with deep convictions - I promise you, they appear possessed.

Yeah duh, why do you think Anders gives Merril crap all the time? He's allowed Justice in thinking he's not a demon, it'll be okay, except it wasn't. He knows better then anyone what it means. 

[Ryzaki]

Yeah Anders has complete and utter control of himself.

Not possesed at all.  

[AtreiyaN7]

Judging by the romance conversations, it took three years before Anders finally couldn't take it anymore and gave in to his desires when he finally kissed Hawke. He mentions the lying awake at night for three years thing during his first night visit to the mansion. Not only did he try to say no for three years, he also warns you from the start that he's only going to hurt you (when you flirt earlier). I think that his warnings, along with his resisting temptation for a good three years, prove that he loves Hawke. Does he use Hawke and emotionally blackmail him/her into helping him later? Yes - but I don't think it negates the fact that he loves Hawke.

Also, I don't think that moving into the mansion was related to his bombing plot, because even if you don't have a romance, he finds a way. I think that was legitimately about fearing the templars. Besides, he also jokes around about thinking you'd be happy not to have to step over all the drunks/bodies (whatever it was) just to visit him. Even with the "liar and a monster" thing, clearly he's referring to Justice/Vengeance being dominant. The romance/friendship version seems to be about him calmly admitting that Justice is a large, dominant part of him and that the mage cause is more important than anything else, even Hawke. Personally, I considered that another warning from him.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 17 mars 2011 - 07:57 .

[Koffeegirl]

Ive really enjoyed hearing everyone's responses on the thread so far. I guess maybe a part of Ander's does love Hawke, but he is so warped from both his own anger and justice's becoming vengeance that he doesn't fully love her like someone that's not possessed would.
In reference to Alistair, yes Alistair puts being king over his relationship with the Warden, but he never puts her in harms way over himself or his kingship. If you don't do the DR he still will slay the Archdemon in place of the warden, despite again leaving Fereldan without a king Hence still putting the warden's safety and well being above his own. Although you could argue that he blackmails the warden if the warden chooses to spare Loghain.. So I guess Anders thinks he loves Hawke, but the love is overshadowed and overpowered by his hate for the Chantry/ possession which then causes him to blackmail Hawke, etc. It's a very sad romance..

Modifié par Koffeegirl, 17 mars 2011 - 08:58 .

[Anarya]

Koffeegirl wrote...

Ive really enjoyed hearing everyone's responses on the thread so far. I guess maybe a part of Ander's does love Hawke, but he is so warped from both his own anger and justice's becoming vengeance that he doesn't fully love her like someone that's not possessed would.
In reference to Alistair, yes Alistair puts being king over his relationship with the Warden, but he never puts her in harms way over himself or his kingship. If you don't do the DR he still will slay the Archdemon in place of the warden, despite again leaving Fereldan without a king Hence still putting the warden's safety and well being above his own. Although you could argue that he blackmails the warden if the warden chooses to spare Loghain.. So I guess Anders thinks he loves Hawke, but the love is overshadowed and overpowered by his hate for the Chantry/ possession which then causes him to blackmail Hawke, etc. It's a very sad romance..

Once again it's a question of degree. The same principle is at work in both Alistair and Anders' romances but Anders' is way more drastic.

Anders doesn't just think he loves Hawke, he actually does. I guess it depends on how you yourself define love though.

Modifié par Anarya, 17 mars 2011 - 09:02 .

[Wynne]

I believe he loved Hawke. I just wish he hadn't made it sound so mild when he said he'd break Hawke's heart.

Heartbreak is to what I felt at the end of the game as a falling drop of water is to a tsunami.

[Sarah1281]

Do you guys "blame" Wynne for her good acts? She had a spirit of Faith inside her - did it make her good? Or was she good - and she kept the spirit of Faith pure?

Wynne's spirit isn't much like Anders. It doesn't really seem to talk to her or anything like that, she can just feel its presence. It just brought her back and now seems to be fading. With Anders, we can tell by the glowing blue eyes and lines on his skin whenever Justice comes out and we can feel free to 'blame' the things that he does while in that state on Justice. Anders himself denies that it was Justice that made him blow up the Chantry and that he and Justice are the same person. And yet...Justice actively steps in and prevents Anders from changing his mind. I think Anders is on-board with it to some degree and yet Justice won't let him do any different.

And yes - he was responsible - interesting that his father sends him to Tevinter and not a Circle at the end of Origins.

Actually, he DOES get sent to the Circle and then years later goes to Tevinter.

He lied so that you wouldn't stop him. He did not protect Hawke, he made him/her an accomplice. The fact is, Hawke IS less important to him than his cause. Everything in the world is less important to him than the cause, including Hawke, himself, and even other innocents. He's very "end justify the means" about it.

You're certainly less culpable than if you knew what you were doing but I remember Sebastian turning to Hawke and demanding "You HELPED him?" when Hawke yelled at Anders about being used to distract the Grand Cleric.

I stand by the fact that spirits are just "ideas personified". They cannot do anything that a person wasn't already willing and capable of doing.

The spirits define themselves based on the ideals that they value. Justice had already decided that he was going to devote his existence to the cause of Justice before he had even met Anders and was the one to first call Anders on the fact he wasn't doing anything to protect the mages long before they had merged.

[Medhia Nox]

@Anarya - my version of love has a lot more responsibility and a lot less betrayal.

I suppose it's true however that I didn't base my decision to be with him on love - I based it on the fact that I thought I could help him. Give him something better to concentrate on instead of all that evil - and, when he approaches me and tells me that having Justice inside him is wrong I thought "Cool, the decision to stick with him and try to give him something more than hate to focus on might have worked."

However - it only turned into total betrayal and endless lies.

And if this were a tabletop game my wrath would be terrible and mostly powered by the pain I'd say my character felt - he would become a more purified form of vengeance. First he would imprison Anders and bring him to Tevinter - then he would study any form of magics that could imprison spirits - then he would tear Justice/Vengeance from Anders and imprison it in the most painful fashion he could find... then, he would make Anders Tranquil.

BTW - not because I think that's at all good (or justified) - but because I think it would make an excellent story.

[berelinde]

leggywillow wrote...

Both are true.  He does use Hawke.  He also loves Hawke.  The two unfortunately do not need to be mutually exclusive.

I think Anders loves Hawke with everything that's still human in him.

This.

[Rhys1984]

He does love him, but the part of him that is vengeance has been eating him away for six years, perhaps you just stalled the explosion with your love, by helping him keep his human side, but even though you've helped him, it's really up to him in the end, and maybe he wasn't strong enough.

[DeaHamlet]

I apologize if this was already said, I haven't finished reading all the comments in this thread.

If you forgive Anders and ask him why he didn't just trust you... he says that either way it's a heartbreak he cannot live with. If you agree with him, he's making you an outcast, fugitive... and puts all those deaths on your conscience. If you don't agree, then you'll try and stop him (which he clearly considers the lesser of the two evils!) and who knows where that would lead... basically forcing him to choose between his love and his insane vengeance.

And the very end... yeah, totally tortured but in love, that's Anders. At every step he tries to keep Hawke away from the trainwreck that he knows his life is/will be. There's only so much temptation you can give a man, before he gives in... the glimmer of happiness, to hope, he can't help but reach for it.

And I don't think he planned the chantry stuff early on. If you pay attention to dialogue and what he says when you click on him at times... he goes from having some hope, from wanting to find a solution, from appealing to the chantry... to realizing that nobody is going to do anything and things are getting worse. People are getting more desperate and being lost to their desperation or the abuse of templars.

So he does something. Maybe we don't all agree with his choice. He tries to have Hawke by his side even in this attempt, but without putting it on her conscience to make the hard choice.
I can definitely see Anders' progression and I have no doubts that he loves Hawke. That is the only thing in his life he still holds on to, but even then he's capable of pushing away to keep Hawke from being directly involved.

And after a chat with the chantry lady, even *I* was getting ready to ****slap her. My DA:O warden would have hit her over the head, that's for sure.

[Shandyr]

DeaHamlet wrote...

I apologize if this was already said, I haven't finished reading all the comments in this thread.

If you forgive Anders and ask him why he didn't just trust you... he says that either way it's a heartbreak he cannot live with. If you agree with him, he's making you an outcast, fugitive... and puts all those deaths on your conscience. If you don't agree, then you'll try and stop him (which he clearly considers the lesser of the two evils!) and who knows where that would lead... basically forcing him to choose between his love and his insane vengeance.

And the very end... yeah, totally tortured but in love, that's Anders. At every step he tries to keep Hawke away from the trainwreck that he knows his life is/will be. There's only so much temptation you can give a man, before he gives in... the glimmer of happiness, to hope, he can't help but reach for it.

And I don't think he planned the chantry stuff early on. If you pay attention to dialogue and what he says when you click on him at times... he goes from having some hope, from wanting to find a solution, from appealing to the chantry... to realizing that nobody is going to do anything and things are getting worse. People are getting more desperate and being lost to their desperation or the abuse of templars.

So he does something. Maybe we don't all agree with his choice. He tries to have Hawke by his side even in this attempt, but without putting it on her conscience to make the hard choice.
I can definitely see Anders' progression and I have no doubts that he loves Hawke. That is the only thing in his life he still holds on to, but even then he's capable of pushing away to keep Hawke from being directly involved.

And after a chat with the chantry lady, even *I* was getting ready to ****slap her. My DA:O warden would have hit her over the head, that's for sure.

This.

Thank you for your post. Now I can see Anders actions in a new light and "I" dont feel that betrayed anymore. Because youre right that out of Anders view he couldnt tell Hawke.
By doing so he tried to save Hawke and his vengeance at once.

[sassperella]

I do believe Anders loved Hawke, yes. If you do the rival romance it's even more obvious - he's prepared to be with her even if she's everything he hates. But at the end of the day he betrays that love. For me, the biggest betrayal wasn't the big boom, though that was bad enough, but I believe that he was trying to keep Hawke out of that and I believe that Justice had a lot more to do with that than Anders (again see the rival romance). What was the worst for me was the lie.

Why couldn't he just say he needed those things for something else? Why tell Hawke that it would free him from Justice? That was just cruel. It was obvious that freeing him wasn't going to be as simple as getting a potion and I was suss right from the start, but to lie to Hawke like that, to give her hope rather than making up some other excuse was the heartbreaker.

[Sarah1281]

I agree it was cruel but I think it falls within the realms of the Jedi Truth. If Anders expected to become martyred for this (and I think he did) then that would technicallyl 'free' them of each other.

[Auora]

I agree that he did intend to become a Martyr.

In his conversation with Isabella....
Anders: There is justice in the world.
Isabela: Is there? You want to free the mages. Let's say you do, but to get there, you kill a bunch of innocent people.
Isabela: What about them? Don't they then deserve justice?
Anders: Yes.

He expects to be killed for what he will do, or at least die trying.

[highcastle]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I stand by the fact that spirits are just "ideas personified". They cannot do anything that a person wasn't already willing and capable of doing.

I imagine you've not met anyone in real life with deep convictions - I promise you, they appear possessed.

Lol. I worked in politics for a time. I know possessed.

I think you raise an interesting argument, and your interpretation is definitely valid. I just happen to disagree with it. I don't believe Connor was willing to enslave his relatives. I also don't believe Wynne fully consented to her possession. In her dialogues, it sounds like she was largely caught unaware by the whole thing.

That being said, Anders did choose his fate. However, I'm not sure he knew the full consequences of his actions. Justice in Awakening is a much different creature from Vengeance. Look at his behavior in the Blackmarsh fade versus the DA2 fade. He's been changed as much as Anders. Again, I'm not saying this exonerates Anders. Far from it, I think the man needs to take some responsibility. I just think possession in Thedas is a little different from "possession" in reality.

[Medhia Nox]

I suppose the answer lies in this then:

I would not love Anders after what he did.

Not a shred of my love would remain (in the end, it would remain at first, but constantly diminish after I witnessed the after effects of what he did) - yes, I've been in love, and yes I'm well aware of the lack of control it entails. Still "MY" convictions are stronger than my love for any person - and this is an evil act I could not abide.

[expwnit]

From an emotionally-draining first playthrough romancing Anders to a more distancing second playthrough in which I only friended the mage, a lot of the dialog is the same. Anders blackmailing Hawke to get the "potion," Anders stating he does not deserve companionship or anything else for that matter. A line came up recently that made me sad in Act 3... Anders states his cause is all that he is, there is nothing else inside. With that and the rivalry romance line 'There's no one I wouldn't kill to set mages free,' I have to wonder how much of Anders is left inside of him by the end. I want to believe he loved Hawke but Justice/Vengeance overwhelms him. After the Chantry is destroyed, it's possible that Justice is partially placated, because Anders seems to be more himself for the short period afterwards, and runs off with Hawke. Maybe with all of the Circles rebelling, he can have some peace? I certainly hope so. To me, he does love Hawke in his own way but if it ever came down to his cause or Hawke then he would choose freedom for mages every time.

[Brightassin]

Who cares about this dirty ****? By controlling Hawke I was the one who just used him as a healer slave xD Although the temtation of making him tranquil was almost irresistible when he wanted Hawke to kiss him...

[highcastle]

expwnit wrote...

Maybe with all of the Circles rebelling, he can have some peace? I certainly hope so. To me, he does love Hawke in his own way but if it ever came down to his cause or Hawke then he would choose freedom for mages every time.

I don't know if he'll ever really have peace. I think his cause will always be more important to him than anything else (at least as long as he remains possessed). He might have fleeting moments of peace, but I think eventually he'll succumb to his obsession again. I do agree with you that I think he loves Hawke, but loves his cause more. That's why I'm not sure choosing to run away with him in the end is really for the best.

That being said, it's the option I keep picking. Why? Maybe I'm a sucker for heartache and drama. I think there's a lot of both surrounding Anders. I absolutely would love to see him freed from Justice...and then grappling with the ramifications of his actions. I'm curious what an Anders free of possession would think about his act. Would he be able to live with it? I don't know. But it makes me think, which is always a plus in any art form.

[Nokternul]

Anders is not capable of love thanks to the merge with Justice. He has only one purpose and that is vengeance where the ends justify the means. Hawke and the rest of the crew are nothing more than tools to be discarded as he pursues and perpetuates his own insanity.

[Reverie]

Nokternul wrote...

Anders is not capable of love thanks to the merge with Justice. He has only one purpose and that is vengeance where the ends justify the means. Hawke and the rest of the crew are nothing more than tools to be discarded as he pursues and perpetuates his own insanity.

I'm going to have to tally disagree with that.

[Nokternul]

Reverie wrote...

Nokternul wrote...

Anders is not capable of love thanks to the merge with Justice. He has only one purpose and that is vengeance where the ends justify the means. Hawke and the rest of the crew are nothing more than tools to be discarded as he pursues and perpetuates his own insanity.

I'm going to have to tally disagree with that.

How compelling.

[Reverie]

Well I'm not going to reiterate the points people have already made throughout the thread, but thanks for the sarcasm.