210 réponses à ce sujet

[silver-crescent]

highcastle wrote...

expwnit wrote...

Maybe with all of the Circles rebelling, he can have some peace? I certainly hope so. To me, he does love Hawke in his own way but if it ever came down to his cause or Hawke then he would choose freedom for mages every time.

I don't know if he'll ever really have peace. I think his cause will always be more important to him than anything else (at least as long as he remains possessed). He might have fleeting moments of peace, but I think eventually he'll succumb to his obsession again. I do agree with you that I think he loves Hawke, but loves his cause more. That's why I'm not sure choosing to run away with him in the end is really for the best.

That being said, it's the option I keep picking. Why? Maybe I'm a sucker for heartache and drama. I think there's a lot of both surrounding Anders. I absolutely would love to see him freed from Justice...and then grappling with the ramifications of his actions. I'm curious what an Anders free of possession would think about his act. Would he be able to live with it? I don't know. But it makes me think, which is always a plus in any art form.

Well he will have peace when the mages are free. He does say he wants to keep fighting. I think Anders and Hawke staying together at the end and continuing to fight for the mages' freedom is an amazing ending. Especially if Hawke is a mage as well.

[Carmen_Willow]

I believe it is Sebastian that says it best when he calls Anders a selfish man who will ultimately put his own needs first. Truer words are not spoke in this game.

[SurelyForth]

Carmen_Willow wrote...

I believe it is Sebastian that says it best when he calls Anders a selfish man who will ultimately put his own needs first. Truer words are not spoke in this game.

I would argue that is a simplistic way to put it. What Anders does is actually kinda selfless, if you're one of the thousands of mages languishing in circles all over Thedas resigned to a life in prison because of, as Bethany puts it, an accident of birth. He even does the right thing by turning himself in so that no one else can be blamed and he can face his punishment. 

As for his needs, I'd say his needs as a person are pretty far down on his list of priorities. He lives in the slums and heals people for free, he keeps himself from making a move on Hawke for over three years, and he allows himself to work along side any Hawke, even if they aren't working towards the same end as he is. 

It seems like the only need he really puts first is the need to do something to break the stalemate in Kirkwall, to remove the ability to compromise. And a lot of people have goals, or are driven by some need that they put above all else, and they aren't being driven by the spirit of a pure ideal. 

Modifié par SurelyForth, 18 mars 2011 - 11:24 .

[Koffeegirl]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I suppose the answer lies in this then:

I would not love Anders after what he did.

Not a shred of my love would remain (in the end, it would remain at first, but constantly diminish after I witnessed the after effects of what he did) - yes, I've been in love, and yes I'm well aware of the lack of control it entails. Still "MY" convictions are stronger than my love for any person - and this is an evil act I could not abide.

You know that is a great point and offers a reverse way of looking at the situation. I think my mage Hawke would feel the same way. She could not be with Anders after what he did. Killing innocents is not Justice (though perhaps Vegenance believes it is because  the cleric and common people doing nothing is what allows the mages to be persecuted) . So perhaps, if you do a rivalry or friendship romance with Anders his convictions (crazy and warped  though they are) are stronger than his love for Hawke and thus he does not love Hawke anymore or his love is overshadowed  by act 3 He may have loved him or her in the beginning but his convictions have really done away with them which explains the lying, blackmailing, etc.


Edit: Just as Hawke may have loved Anders throughout the game, but after he blows up the Chantry, she/he cannot allow herself to anymore and kills him.

Modifié par Koffeegirl, 19 mars 2011 - 01:25 .

[Ryzaki]

Anders loves Hawke.

Rivalmance Anders, then side with the templars and spare him.

He tells you his loves you right before forcing you to kill him.

And frankly while it's possible for Hawke to stop loving Anders because of the Chantry incident I don't see Anders doing the same. 

He still loves Hawke even if he fights him to the death to try futily to stop him from killing the mages. 

It's sad (what he does) but his whole existance doesn't bow and conform to Hawke's wilies. Which is nice (and kind of reminds me of Morrigan). 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 mars 2011 - 01:28 .

[Aristorum]

Ryzaki wrote...

Anders loves Hawke.

Rivalmance Anders, then side with the templars and spare him.

He tells you his loves you right before forcing you to kill him.

And frankly while it's possible for Hawke to stop loving Anders because of the Chantry incident I don't see Anders doing the same. 

He still loves Hawke even if he fights him to the death to try futily to stop him from killing the mages. 

It's sad (what he does) but his whole existance doesn't bow and conform to Hawke's wilies. Which is nice (and kind of reminds me of Morrigan). 

Is there a video of this? I'm not gonna replay the entire game for one scene.

[griffondor]

I don't have a youTube account anymore, so I can't post them, but I have the video's. I was at 100% friendship, in a love relationship with him, let him go but sided with the Templars on this particular play though. Don't know if the comments are different with rivalry.

After you kill all the mages/abominations in Templar Hall, he comes down
the stairs with his arms crossed and says:

"So here you come...ready to do the Templars dirty work.
Do you expect a reward, a hug from the Knight Commander?
Are you that big a fool?"

Three choices to respond:

Nice: I let you go, Anders. You shouldn't be here.
Anders: I set the fire. I can't just walk away. I loved you once. But I cannot let you do this.

Ironic: Kirkwall is my home. And I intend to protect it.
Anders: From us...from me. It would have been nice to have a home
instead of a cell or a hiding place. But I'm wasting my breath. Let's
end this.

Direct: You surrendered the moral high ground with the chantry, Anders.
Anders: I only brought to a head what was already festering. But I'm
wasting my breath...let's end this.

Then, he and some other mages attack you. I ran up to him and stopped
to see what he would do and he turned me into a snowball basically. Then he killed me.

So, at the friendship/love level, he is willing to kill you to protect the mages.   Although, neither Anders nor Hawk had the option in this game of falling to our knees and crying, or throwing down our sword and walking off the set, it does seem that Sebastian was right.

Modifié par griffondor, 19 mars 2011 - 07:21 .

[Sarah1281]

So, at the friendship/love level, he is willing to kill you to protect the mages. Although, neither Anders nor Hawk had the option in this game of falling ot our knees and crying, or throwing down our sword and walking off the set, it does seem that Sebastian was right.

Well, in the rivalmance Anders tells you that there isn't anyone in Kirkwall he wouldn't kill to free the mages.

[silver-crescent]

griffondor wrote...

I don't have a youTube account anymore, so I can't post them, but I have the video's. I was at 100% friendship, in a love relationship with him, let him go but sided with the Templars on this particular play though. Don't know if the comments are different with rivalry.

After you kill all the mages/abominations in Templar Hall, he comes down
the stairs with his arms crossed and says:

"So here you come...ready to do the Templars dirty work.
Do you expect a reward, a hug from the Knight Commander?
Are you that big a fool?"

Three choices to respond:

Nice: I let you go, Anders. You shouldn't be here.
Anders: I set the fire. I can't just walk away. I loved you once. But I cannot let you do this.

Ironic: Kirkwall is my home. And I intend to protect it.
Anders: From us...from me. It would have been nice to have a home
instead of a cell or a hiding place. But I'm wasting my breath. Let's
end this.

Direct: You surrendered the moral high ground with the chantry, Anders.
Anders: I only brought to a head what was already festering. But I'm
wasting my breath...let's end this.

Then, he and some other mages attack you. I ran up to him and stopped
to see what he would do and he turned me into a snowball basically. Then he killed me.

So, at the friendship/love level, he is willing to kill you to protect the mages.   Although, neither Anders nor Hawk had the option in this game of falling to our knees and crying, or throwing down our sword and walking off the set, it does seem that Sebastian was right.

Well if you had been supporting him and his cause all along but decided to turn against him at the very end, it's not surprising he'd turn against Hawke. Especially given the circumstances.

[snarkycleric]

I thought he said it himself, actually? He loves Hawke. Hawke is the most important thing in his life. But there are things he values more than his life. He does use Hawke - it's not mutually exclusive, as someone pointed out.

I - don't think his needs are selfish. If he was truly being selfish, then this situation would not have happened in the first place; I think he agreed to merge with Justice because he wanted to help, and then it all went wrong. He doesn't want to hurt Hawke - Hawke's the one who insists on romancing him. All in all I think he put his personal desires very far down the list of priorities.

Whether or not you think what he did was right, good or necessary is a different thing, mind. To me it doesn't change the fact that he was fighting for something greater than himself and was willing to sacrifice himself to do it. There may have been better ways to do it, but he was still doing it for a cause beyond himself. I don't think that's selfish.

[Ryzaki]

Aristorum wrote...

Is there a video of this? I'm not gonna replay the entire game for one scene.

No. It is technically "I loved you once."Now that i just replayed hte scene. And you do have to pick a specific choice to get it. I think its the uppermost one.

As for a video I don't think so. 

You wouldn't need to replay the whole game anyway. Just right before making the choice to side with templars/mages. There should be an auto save.

Here just uploaded one. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 mars 2011 - 08:40 .

[panamakira]

GunClubGirl wrote...

I don't think he lied to Hawke to "use" Hawke. I think he did it to protect Hawke, so she (or he) would NOT be implicated in what happened. Protection out of love. I disagree that he cares about the so-called "terrorist act" more. These are desperate times. Being tranquil is a fate worse than death. The mages ARE fighting for their lives. Taking desperate measures that he thought (or Justice thought...) would force a resolution does not mean Hawke is "less important". If anything, the only thing that would make it seem like he doesn't love Hawke is if he really did want to be killed in the end - because if he loved Hawke he wouldn't "leave" her like that. However, I do not buy in to the idea that he wanted to die. I think he considered it a possibility to happen, but had some faith that love would conquer all and he would be forgiven. And in my gameplay, that's how it worked out.

Well actually Jennifer thinks otherwise. And you're right, it is in the end our desicion but she would understand Anders better since she wrote him.

Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

I love the range of responses everyone has to Anders's actions. We really wanted to create a situation without a clear-cut right and wrong. I wrote Anders, Sebastian, Bethany, Leandra, Elthina and Cullen, so I've certainly seen every side of the argument. Personally, my view of it is that Anders wants to blow up the Chantry AND wants to die for it -- that way he gets the revolution he/Justice believes is necessary, but still gives justice to those who died in the Chantry. Though I like the poetic justice of forcing him to live in the world his actions create.

Modifié par panamakira, 19 mars 2011 - 09:02 .

[panamakira]

I think also the question is: "Can you love someone and accept what he does even if he's willing to kill YOU for his cause?"

You guys seem to have a martyr syndrome. Loving someone enough to let them kill you? 0.o

[silver-crescent]

panamakira wrote...

I think also the question is: "Can you love someone and accept what he does even if he's willing to kill YOU for his cause?"

You guys seem to have a martyr syndrome. Loving someone enough to let them kill you? 0.o

He's only willing to kill you if you're fighting him. What should he do? Let himself be killed instead? Give up on his cause because Hawke decided s/he doesn't approve anymore?

[Raiil]

panamakira wrote...

I think also the question is: "Can you love someone and accept what he does even if he's willing to kill YOU for his cause?"

You guys seem to have a martyr syndrome. Loving someone enough to let them kill you? 0.o

Depends on the playthrough. My Hawke is militantly pro-mage, so it's not as much of an issue. And if it came down to saving her life and freeing the mages, she's down with giving up her life for the cause. My Hawke's a little bat****, though.

[snarkycleric]

panamakira wrote...


I think also the question is: "Can you love someone and accept what he does even if he's willing to kill YOU for his cause?"

You guys seem to have a martyr syndrome. Loving someone enough to let them kill you? 0.o

That would really depend on whether or not your Hawke agrees with his cause, wouldn't it? It seems to me that a militantly pro-mage Hawke who thinks it's worth sacrificing his/her life for the cause of freeing the mages would have a martyr syndrome. Not that Anders would want to kill a militantly pro-mage Hawke, though...

There's also the fact that it's possible for your Hawke to be very, very broken given what s/he's gone through in the course of the game. =\\

[lyssalu]

Ryzaki wrote...

Aristorum wrote...

Is there a video of this? I'm not gonna replay the entire game for one scene.

No. It is technically "I loved you once."Now that i just replayed hte scene. And you do have to pick a specific choice to get it. I think its the uppermost one.

As for a video I don't think so. 

You wouldn't need to replay the whole game anyway. Just right before making the choice to side with templars/mages. There should be an auto save.

Here just uploaded one. 

this is awesome.

thanks for the upload

[Taritu]

Lots and lots of people died to free slaves or in the French or American revolutions. Many of them, heck, most of them, were innocent. I have a hard time blaming Anders all that much, but then, I've always known that one man's terrorism is another man's "justifiable" Hiroshima or Grant's March to the Sea, or Dresden. Never really understood why it matters to the dead if they're killed by high explosives used by soldiers or high explosives used by someone else. How many mages were turned tranquil or killed in those 7 years? What did you do about that? How dare you let that continue, and do essentially nothing to stop it? How many more will be killed and go tranquil if nothing is done? Meredith is a borderline nutter herself. Frankly, if my sister told me she wanted to leave the Circle, if the game let me, I'd tear the place down myself and kill every Templar who tried to stop me (starting with Cullen.)

As for if he loves you, sure he does. It's just that your love isn't more important to him than all those mages being forced to be tranquil or being killed. Nor, to be frank, should it be. That would, actually, be extremely selfish. Why is your love more important than the lives or souls of all those mages?

Modifié par Taritu, 19 mars 2011 - 11:54 .

[SurelyForth]

Taritu wrote...

Lots and lots of people died to free slaves or in the French or American revolutions. Many of them, heck, most of them, were innocent. I have a hard time blaming Anders all that much, but then, I've always known that one man's terrorism is another man's "justifiable" Hiroshima or Grant's March to the Sea, or Dresden. Never really understood why it matters to the dead if they're killed by high explosives used by soldiers or high explosives used by someone else. How many mages were turned tranquil or killed in those 7 years? What did you do about that? How dare you let that continue, and do essentially nothing to stop it? How many more will be killed and go tranquil if nothing is done? Meredith is a borderline nutter herself. Frankly, if my sister told me she wanted to leave the Circle, if the game let me, I'd tear the place down myself and kill every Templar who tried to stop me (starting with Cullen.)

As for if he loves you, sure he does. It's just that your love isn't more important to him than all those mages being forced to be tranquil or being killed. Nor, to be frank, should it be. That would, actually, be extremely selfish. Why is your love more important than the lives or souls of all those mages?

I agree with this. And he's hardly the only character in DA that puts their beliefs or desires above their feelings for the PC. Leliana will fight her lover at the ashes, Morrigan will leave hers to die if he refuses the DR. We all have dealbreakers IRL, and I think that Hawke taking a sword up against the very innocents that Anders has already said he's willing to die for is a pretty ginormous dealbreaker. 

[griffondor]

silver-crescent wrote...

Well if you had been supporting him and his cause all along but decided to turn against him at the very end, it's not surprising he'd turn against Hawke. Especially given the circumstances.

I never stopped supporting him.  But I thought there was a better way to end the suffering.  The reason the situation was so bad in Kirkwall is because the leadership was weak.  Neither the Grand Cleric nor the Viscount would do what needed to be done.  By staying on the side of the Templars you can become a leader in Kirkwall.  Only a leader has the power to make changes for both mages and templars both, who are also victims to the system.  The templars become addicted to lyrium--it's not as if they have it great either.  It's an awful sitation that needed to be changed, and would only ever change with new leadership.

Of course, we learn in the epilogue, that despite the city begging the champion to become a leader, instead, she leaves.  Who knows why...in my mage playthrough of DA:O, for my boon I asked that the Circle be free.  And where did that lead?  Apparently, it wasn't revolutionary enough--if it even happened--to make a difference for other circles.  So I understood Anders--but I do take issue with the fact that he chose to kill me.  He did not trust me (and if you spare his life and take the mages side, he says as much).

There is another issue.  Mages are free in Tevinter and it is, according to Fenris, hell on earth.  Suffering, torture, slavery so demented you can't imagine (well, look at the scars on Fenris).  This is a city run by blood mages.  Kirkwall cannot ever afford to go in that direction. 

Both Anders and Fenris were right.  And they were both wrong.  I was trying to find another way.

[Blacklash93]

Anders doesn't really have much of a choice in what he does. His nature as a vengeance abomination compels him to put his cause above all else.

He says he wishes you could be the most important thing to him, but that's just not possible.

[mawdudi]

If ur Hawke was male I believe Anders was just experimenting with some man-on-man stuff. So he didnt love Hawke in that case.

[Blacklash93]

mawdudi wrote...

If ur Hawke was male I believe Anders was just experimenting with some man-on-man stuff. So he didnt love Hawke in that case.

No.

[Kattack]

panamakira wrote...

I think also the question is: "Can you love someone and accept what he does even if he's willing to kill YOU for his cause?"

You guys seem to have a martyr syndrome. Loving someone enough to let them kill you? 0.o

Nah, I'm just not a hypocrite.
If you side with the Templars, despite loving Anders, then you do so knowing that he's going to fight against you. I think he's pretty upfront about it in the game, he does say that he loves you but puts the freedom of mages above you (and himself). Which I don't mind, I've never wanted to be anyone's raison d'etre.
Why would you expect him to lay down his staff and side with you over the mages after that? Why would he side with the templars?
If you can't side with the mages because you love him, he shouldn't have to side with templars because he loves you.

In any case, I think it's clear that I believe he loves Hawke. He's just more consumed by freeing the mages. Mage freedom is his raison d'etre, not Hawke, but that doesn't mean he doesn't love her. (It means his love for her is probably one of the few 'healthy' emotions he has actually. Everything else seems too extreme.)

[Trophonius]

mawdudi wrote...

If ur Hawke was male I believe Anders was just experimenting with some man-on-man stuff. So he didnt love Hawke in that case.

So I guess the first person he ever loved, who was a guy, was just an experiment then? What about the time when Vengeance first takes over because of said guy? I don't know about you, but Anders definitely wasn't experimenting with men for the lulz.