210 réponses à ce sujet

[Kattack]

Trophonius wrote...

mawdudi wrote...

If ur Hawke was male I believe Anders was just experimenting with some man-on-man stuff. So he didnt love Hawke in that case.

So I guess the first person he ever loved, who was a guy, was just an experiment then? What about the time when Vengeance first takes over because of said guy? I don't know about you, but Anders definitely wasn't experimenting with men for the lulz.

It gets awkward right before you get him into your bed though. If you're a girl he says, "If I die tomorrow I don't want it to be before I tell you how I feel," and if you're a guy he says, "If I die tomorrow I don't want it to be without doing that."
IMO that I was bitter that male!Hawke gets a bit more dialogue in a romance up until that point. I'll take a little less dialogue as a girl if it means I get the first line over the second. The second sounds like he's using Hawke for sex.
(I'm not agreeing with Anders "using" the male Hawke. I'm just saying I understand where that could come from.)

[the_baroness]

I guess the real question would be, to what degree does he love Hawke?  Can you really use someone as badly as Anders used Hawke, if you truly loved them?  Let's face it -- I him, but what Anders does is utter crap.  He sets up this situation (basically through lying and blackmail) where he creates a storm of trouble for Hawke.  He also expects to die, thereby leaving Hawke alone to face all the bitter consequences.  

Is that love?  Are those the actions of someone who loves Hawke?  Really don't know.  Anders is broken, crazy and possessed; I'm not sure how much Justice/Vengence has taken him over by Act 3.  And Justice doesn't like Hawke, so...  Their future isn't looking very good, regardless.

If I were endgame!Hawke, who had run off with Anders, I would be sleeping with a knife under my pillow.  I mean, what if Justice decides that you're hindering the revolution?    Anders may love you, but I think he'd kill you in a heartbeat if he thought you were working against his goal.

Modifié par the_baroness, 20 mars 2011 - 02:22 .

[lyssalu]

why are some of you putting love on a higher plane than the liberation of ****tons of people? that anders is capable of separating his love life from a cause shows to me some semblance of balance and i love that this romance wasn't a i'd do anything for you including sacrificing my values and my cares for the plight of others because of how much i love you bliss bliss rainbows kind of a deal. that crap creeps me out.

equally, i'm confused as to why some of you are put off by the fact that anders does not put hawke above his intense ideals when your hawkes are willing to kill him because of what he does. that's hawke elevating some sort of personal belief over their feelings for another person (in a way that seems to be far less justified considering the end results).

anyway, this truly isn't an issue for the hawkes who believe in the cause just as thoroughly as he does. ;}

[panamakira]

silver-crescent wrote...

panamakira wrote...

I think also the question is: "Can you love someone and accept what he does even if he's willing to kill YOU for his cause?"

You guys seem to have a martyr syndrome. Loving someone enough to let them kill you? 0.o

He's only willing to kill you if you're fighting him. What should he do? Let himself be killed instead? Give up on his cause because Hawke decided s/he doesn't approve anymore?

Before you have to make a choice of siding with mages or templars, he clearly states that there's no one in Kirkwall he wouldn't kill for his cause. This is even when you're supporting him, friendship path.

Plus if you're rival-mancing him why would he expect otherwise when you clearly don't agree with him?

[Trophonius]

Kattack wrote...

It gets awkward right before you get him into your bed though. If you're a girl he says, "If I die tomorrow I don't want it to be before I tell you how I feel," and if you're a guy he says, "If I die tomorrow I don't want it to be without doing that."
IMO that I was bitter that male!Hawke gets a bit more dialogue in a romance up until that point. I'll take a little less dialogue as a girl if it means I get the first line over the second. The second sounds like he's using Hawke for sex.
(I'm not agreeing with Anders "using" the male Hawke. I'm just saying I understand where that could come from.)

But he doesn't go around telling m!Hawke "this is a disaster" or "I'm going to break your heart". I would rather have the special conversations he has with m!Hawke than the early doomsaying about any relationship you're going to pursue with him as f!Hawke.

That said, it's laudable how he never loses grasp of the most important thing to him: ultimate freedom for his people. It's a goal he deems worthwhile and won't ever exchange for you.

[Kattack]

Trophonius wrote...

Kattack wrote...

It gets awkward right before you get him into your bed though. If you're a girl he says, "If I die tomorrow I don't want it to be before I tell you how I feel," and if you're a guy he says, "If I die tomorrow I don't want it to be without doing that."
IMO that I was bitter that male!Hawke gets a bit more dialogue in a romance up until that point. I'll take a little less dialogue as a girl if it means I get the first line over the second. The second sounds like he's using Hawke for sex.
(I'm not agreeing with Anders "using" the male Hawke. I'm just saying I understand where that could come from.)

But he doesn't go around telling m!Hawke "this is a disaster" or "I'm going to break your heart". I would rather have the special conversations he has with m!Hawke than the early doomsaying about any relationship you're going to pursue with him as f!Hawke.

That said, it's laudable how he never loses grasp of the most important thing to him: ultimate freedom for his people. It's a goal he deems worthwhile and won't ever exchange for you.

No, I'm pretty sure he still told my male Hawke that it was a disaster...
Though I will agree that he never pulled the "I'll break your heart" card on my male Hawke. Don't mind that too much, gave my Female Hawke the opportunity to tell him that she might enjoy the pain.
Eh, honestly I'm not going to pull for a female or male romance, they both seem to have their pros and cons. It's just for me, personally, having him say "I don't want to die without doing that" would completely kill the mood. It was kind of an awkward weird phrase.

[panamakira]

If Justice/Anders turned on the mage girl like that, I see that happening sometime in the future to my Hawke sadly enough.

Like I've said before, Anders loves Hawke but not nearly enough. This is why this romance is tragic. Hawke is not the center of his universe. If Hawke needs to die for that cause to get accomplished, Hawke will die.

[Medhia Nox]

Lyssalu - I'm putting "Right Action" above Anders' act of terrorism. I believe that he is corrupted and evil - were I to carry on my playthrough that romanced Anders (I won't because I either have to kill him or run off into the sunset with him as far as I know) I would abandon him - renouncing any love for him. I would roleplay that my love blinded me to the truth of his terrible evil - I would take the burden of his evil upon myself as a failure, but I would not get fooled again by such deception.

He has chosen the evil path to change - and he has also chosen to betray Hawke.

My ideals are more important than the love of a person (in real life and in game) - however, my ideals are directly opposite of his. A wonderful example is the Warden - he frees the Ferelden circle through self-sacrifice, not the sacrifice of others.

Anders is a coward and a sociopath.

I prefer the Right Action of the Buddha, but since I'm sure someone will state snidely that the Buddha was not oppressed - then I would direct you to the actions of Mahatma Gandhi who freed his nation from terrible oppression without ever condoning violence and, in fact, endangering his own life when violence was attempted as a catalyst for change.

Now - games like this don't give me the option to be relevant and also minimize violence. They're built on killing and leveling. However - at moments like what Anders did - I am directly opposed to him and anyone who agrees with him.

This was not the liberation of anyone. It was the justification of the Chantries fears. It was forcing mages who might have been content in the Circles to face terrible times. It was forcing a collapse of social structures throughout all of Thedas. It was violence heaped upon violence.

Like every super villain ever conceived - he made a choice about what was right for everyone. He is a criminal - a murderer - and a psychopath.

Playing a mage character - I wanted reform, but not dissolution of the Circles. So that's one mage who disagrees with Anders - yet he's forced me to save myself from the fear he's caused. Wynne and Irving would also be two mages who would not have condoned his actions (otherwise they would have joined Uldred's attempt).

[the_baroness]

lyssalu wrote...

why are some of you putting love on a higher plane than the liberation of ****tons of people? that anders is capable of separating his love life from a cause shows to me some semblance of balance and i love that this romance wasn't a i'd do anything for you including sacrificing my values and my cares for the plight of others because of how much i love you bliss bliss rainbows kind of a deal. that crap creeps me out.

I think the fact that his cause entails killing lots of people, mostly innocent bystanders...  That's not balance, that's not healthy or acceptable.  That's murder and craziness.  I don't think it's unreasonable to expect your loved one to refrain from killing people via suicide bombing and, before that, willfully deceiving and lying to you about it.   

Don't get me wrong, I adore the Anders romance.  I had a mage run off with him.  He's totured and sexy, totally.  But he's also a crazed revolutionary who killed a bunch of people to kickstart a bloody revolution/massacre.  How much of that is Justice, though...  I sometimes wonder, if Awakening Anders could somehow see into the future, would he be horrified at what happens to him.  D:

[Sarah1281]

Anders is a coward and a sociopath.

In what way is he like a sociopath? His extreme concern for the mages alone make this seem like an unlikely fit.

[Medhia Nox]

Profile of the Sociopath

This website summarizes some of the common features of descriptions of the behavior of sociopaths.


* Glibness and Superficial Charm

* Manipulative and Conning
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.

* Grandiose Sense of Self
Feels entitled to certain things as "their right."

* Pathological Lying
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.

* Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.

* Shallow Emotions
When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.

* Incapacity for Love

* Need for Stimulation
Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common.

* Callousness/Lack of Empathy
Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.

* Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.

* Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc.

* Irresponsibility/Unreliability
Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed.

* Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity
Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts.

* Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively.

* Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility
Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily.

============

Sounds like Anders to me.

[Koffeegirl]

the_baroness wrote...

I guess the real question would be, to what degree does he love Hawke?  Can you really use someone as badly as Anders used Hawke, if you truly loved them?  Let's face it -- I him, but what Anders does is utter crap.  He sets up this situation (basically through lying and blackmail) where he creates a storm of trouble for Hawke.  He also expects to die, thereby leaving Hawke alone to face all the bitter consequences.  

Is that love?  Are those the actions of someone who loves Hawke?  Really don't know.  Anders is broken, crazy and possessed; I'm not sure how much Justice/Vengence has taken him over by Act 3.  And Justice doesn't like Hawke, so...  Their future isn't looking very good, regardless.

If I were endgame!Hawke, who had run off with Anders, I would be sleeping with a knife under my pillow.  I mean, what if Justice decides that you're hindering the revolution?    Anders may love you, but I think he'd kill you in a heartbeat if he thought you were working against his goal.

yes, I agree. In Act 2, Anders almost kills the mage girl. He is losing control of his actions more and more throughout the story/ What is to stop him if you run away from him, from killing Hawke if there is something that she doesn't agree with no matter how minor.

Hawke: I think we should stop and rest. We've been running for hours. Let's make camp here.
Anders/Vegenance: You would stop to rest. You are sloth. You are not dedicated to the cause of freedom.

Fight breaks out.

[Sarah1281]

At least a mage would never be caught unarmed.

[Blacklash93]

Kattack wrote...

Trophonius wrote...

mawdudi wrote...

If ur Hawke was male I believe Anders was just experimenting with some man-on-man stuff. So he didnt love Hawke in that case.

So I guess the first person he ever loved, who was a guy, was just an experiment then? What about the time when Vengeance first takes over because of said guy? I don't know about you, but Anders definitely wasn't experimenting with men for the lulz.

It gets awkward right before you get him into your bed though. If you're a girl he says, "If I die tomorrow I don't want it to be before I tell you how I feel," and if you're a guy he says, "If I die tomorrow I don't want it to be without doing that."
IMO that I was bitter that male!Hawke gets a bit more dialogue in a romance up until that point. I'll take a little less dialogue as a girl if it means I get the first line over the second. The second sounds like he's using Hawke for sex.
(I'm not agreeing with Anders "using" the male Hawke. I'm just saying I understand where that could come from.)

"If we could die tommorrow, I wouldn't want it to be without doing that." is the exact quote.

It doesn't really sound like something you would say to someone you're using for sex in the context of short make-out. Kissing is a form of expressing love more than lust. If all Anders really wants is an empty kiss before dying, I'd say that's pretty sad.

The variation of that line between male and female Hawkes is rather trivial, honestly.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 20 mars 2011 - 03:25 .

[lyssalu]

the_baroness wrote...

lyssalu wrote...

why are some of you putting love on a higher plane than the liberation of ****tons of people? that anders is capable of separating his love life from a cause shows to me some semblance of balance and i love that this romance wasn't a i'd do anything for you including sacrificing my values and my cares for the plight of others because of how much i love you bliss bliss rainbows kind of a deal. that crap creeps me out.

I think the fact that his cause entails killing lots of people, mostly innocent bystanders...  That's not balance, that's not healthy or acceptable.  That's murder and craziness.  I don't think it's unreasonable to expect your loved one to refrain from killing people via suicide bombing and, before that, willfully deceiving and lying to you about it.   

Don't get me wrong, I adore the Anders romance.  I had a mage run off with him.  He's totured and sexy, totally.  But he's also a crazed revolutionary who killed a bunch of people to kickstart a bloody revolution/massacre.  How much of that is Justice, though...  I sometimes wonder, if Awakening Anders could somehow see into the future, would he be horrified at what happens to him.  D:

wait

wait

suicide bombing?

i don't understand where that accusation is coming from.

i'm also unsure of what you mean by innocent bystanders?  chantry workers teach and enforce the subjugation of mages, as well as employ templars (who beat, rape, and kill) to keep mages in line.  inaction is also an action in and of itself, of which the revered mother did a lot of.

anyway, any solution (or nonsolution, really) would involve the deaths of percieved "innocents" (and really, we could argue all day over what innocent means and whether or not templars and chantry workers fit that description).  there's no denying that mages (also percieved to be innocent) were shown to be victims of all kinds of horrors throughout the duration of the game, and really, decades and decades before the game even took place.  mages had been killed, locked away, and made mentally unwhole, and at any moment, someone in a position of power would be able to order every single mage be killed on the spot just for being what they are.  meredith enacted the rite of anullment even though the person to blame for the chantry bombing was right there, ready to be punished, and she let him walk; her subsequent actions went on to kill far more people than anders' bomb did, and for reasons that were far less rational than anders' were.  meredith was ready to commit genocide over the actions of one man, which was exactly what anders was counting on to prove his entire point.

inaction and the acceptance of subjugation has led to far more deaths than anders' single act did, and again, both led to the deaths of innocents -- it really just comes down to whether or not you're thinking about what occurs through time versus what comes with immediacy.  to you, immediacy has more impact despite lacking in number of victims, so i suppose i find your judgement to be a bit misguided. 

[Sarah1281]

It doesn't really sound like something you would say to someone you're using for sex in the context of short make-out. Kissing is a form of expressing love more than lust. If all Anders really wants is an empty kiss before dying, I'd say that's pretty sad.

Not to mention that he could just go to Isabela for that like non-romanced Fenris will.

[lyssalu]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Profile of the Sociopath

so i just skimmed this because i was laughing too hard to read all of it, but child abuse and rape?  yep, that sure is anders.

[Blacklash93]

@ Medhia Nox

Anders does fit a few of those, but who doesn't at one point or another? He is genuine overall. He completely takes the blame after bombing the Chantry so he definitely has a sense of responsibility. He is also not promiscuous or cruel.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 20 mars 2011 - 03:32 .

[lyssalu]

Blacklash93 wrote...

@ Medhia Nox

Anders does fit a few of those, but who doesn't at one point or another? He is genuine overall. He completely takes the blame after bombing the Chantry so he definitely has a sense of responsibility. He is also not promiscuous or cruel.

lololol, yes, he works in a poverty stricken area as a healer free of charge.  

[Medhia Nox]

We see what we want I suppose.

[Sarah1281]

lyssalu wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

Profile of the Sociopath

so i just skimmed this because i was laughing too hard to read all of it, but child abuse and rape?  yep, that sure is anders.

Obviously no one person is going to have every last symptom. What's important is how well the non-child abuse and rape ones fit.

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

Big Mac Heart Attack wrote...

Anders seemed heart broken when my Hawke told him she used him for the sex.

Certainly didn't keep him around for his bipolar disorder.

[Trophonius]

Kattack wrote...

No, I'm pretty sure he still told my male Hawke that it was a disaster...
Though I will agree that he never pulled the "I'll break your heart" card on my male Hawke. Don't mind that too much, gave my Female Hawke the opportunity to tell him that she might enjoy the pain.
Eh, honestly I'm not going to pull for a female or male romance, they both seem to have their pros and cons. It's just for me, personally, having him say "I don't want to die without doing that" would completely kill the mood. It was kind of an awkward weird phrase.

I'm very certain he doesn't say this at all to m!Hawke. He's receptive towards him and momentarily reverts back to his pre-Justice/Vengeance self.

Personally, him saying "I didn't want to die without doing that" doesn't mean he's experimenting with/using m!Hawke. After all, he's spent three years lying awake to ponder about his conflicting feelings for him. That's why I don't think the kiss is purely out of lust (if that was even the intention); rather, his yearning for him led to that course of action.

"I didn't want to die without doing that" is basically the same thing as "I didn't want to die without saying how I feel about you". The only difference is that one didn't need words; just unspoken demonstration of affection, whereas the other needed verbal assurance about letting his feelings known.

Modifié par Trophonius, 20 mars 2011 - 03:58 .

[Darkannex]

Medhia Nox wrote...

We see what we want I suppose.

What's good for the goose is also gravy for the gander. 

The fact that some see his actions as justified, and others see it more akin to senseless terrorism. That's the point, I think. His actions are meant to spark this sort of debate. Especially relevant in today's world, I still argue that to make it too related is to discount certain 'fantasy' elements that are relevant more in Thedas than the real world (magic, posession, etc). 

Some might argue that John brown was a terrorist, and he was hanged as such. But today people see him as a hero that stood up for the slaves when noone else would. His words are now recited by children everywhere. Yet when he was hanged, the South was in a froth of frenzy over the apparent 'support of terrorism' that the North's approval of his intent provoked. 

Gahndi was indeed an amazing man. But I also submit that fortune favored him. Had he tried the passive resistance in another environment (say...Libya?) he'd have been shot or labelled a traitor and hanged. That does not diminish what he has done, or what he has taught, but it does show that situations can give different results to similar actions.  

I don't condone what Anders did, but I personally feel that there were mitigating factors in that 1. he's posessed by a demon of Vengence, and 2. he's obviously losing his marbles. I let him live, therefore. Also, I agree that since he wanted to die, the last thing he should get is a death. He deserves to see the world his actions have made. 

Trying to weigh lives never works well. Saying that treats humanity more as a sum or minus than as a whole. But again, my opinion. 

As for the list of sociopathic behavior. I will submit that Anders does not lie 'easily' or 'well' since your Hawke can see through it and refuse him. You can also warn Elthina of it. And he does indeed show guilt and remorse, many times over. He does show commitment to both the charges he heals in Kirkwall, as well as Hawke if romanced. No evidence of promiscuity, previous criminal behavior, although he may be considered delinquent due to multiple escapes from the chantry.  I don't believe he fits the sociopathic criteria. 

Although someone could argue that Gacy did selfless things, like clown for kids in hospitals, etc. etc. 

Modifié par Darkannex, 20 mars 2011 - 03:55 .

[Medhia Nox]

That's why I said "We" Darkannex - and I actually meant it.

To me, he shows the same type of guilt a Catholic mob would show burning a Protestant heretic during the Reformation.

"It is a terrible shame that this man did not see the truth. I feel terrible that he has brought me to this action." 

That's not "guilt" to me.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 20 mars 2011 - 03:56 .