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[lyssalu]

Sarah1281 wrote...

lyssalu wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

Profile of the Sociopath

so i just skimmed this because i was laughing too hard to read all of it, but child abuse and rape?  yep, that sure is anders.

Obviously no one person is going to have every last symptom. What's important is how well the non-child abuse and rape ones fit.

yes, obviously not, but what ever person posted that took a huge generalized list and said, "welp, this is anders!" and the fact that child abuse and rape were on there was p damn hilarious all things considered.  as to whether or not the non-child abuse and rape descriptions fit, they don't very well, either.  perhaps you'd like to go through the list and show me specific instances in where you think anders displays those characteristics as traits, or shall i go through the most obvious ones?

* Manipulative and Conning
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.

so should we attempt to apply this one to anders asking hawke for help and being ~totes kewl~ with it if hawke says no thanx boo mebbe another time?  let's also ignore that anders' reasoning for keeping hawke in the dark about it was one part anders not wanting his plans foiled and one part wanting to keep hawke's name clear of having any willing involvement in it whatsoever.  (recall the whole, "why didn't you tell me?!" conversation?)

anders so dominates and humiliates hawke all the time what a butthole :"(

* Grandiose Sense of Self
Feels entitled to certain things as "their right."

well i guess thinking that mages should be free and valuing freedom as a natural born right can be applied to anders!!  isn't it great how this means that most westernized peoples exhibit signs of being sociopaths?

* Pathological Lying
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.

he lied once and it was very unconvincing. 

psychological diagnoses on internet forums always give me a good laugh, especially when certain serious conditions are applied to fictional characters as if their writers specifically had some sort of disorder in mind.  so thanks.

[Darkannex]

Medhia Nox wrote...

That's why I said "We" Darkannex - and I actually meant it.

I was quoting for effect, because it was a good quote. 

[the_baroness]

Koffeegirl wrote...

Hawke: I think we should stop and rest. We've been running for hours. Let's make camp here.
Anders/Vegenance: You would stop to rest. You are sloth. You are not dedicated to the cause of freedom.

LOL.  Sadly, a definite possibility.    j/k  Justice would probably be watching Hawke...like a hawk, for any sign of corruption.  [/weak pun]

Darkannex wrote...

Also, I agree that since he wanted to die, the last thing he should get is a death. He deserves to see the world his actions have made. 

I totally agree.  A fitting punishment, I think.  I thought I saw a quote by the writer who wrote Anders...didn't she say something similar to this?  That he wanted to die, but it was sort of karmic justice if the PC made him live?  I thought I did...  

[Darkannex]

Medhia Nox wrote...

That's why I said "We" Darkannex - and I actually meant it.

To me, he shows the same type of guilt a Catholic mob would show burning a Protestant heretic during the Reformation.

"It is a terrible shame that this man did not see the truth. I feel terrible that he has brought me to this action." 

That's not "guilt" to me.

But he DOES show remorse over the girl he almost kills, as well as over Karl. He is able to show that emotion .

[Koffeegirl]

lyssalu wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

Profile of the Sociopath

so i just skimmed this because i was laughing too hard to read all of it, but child abuse and rape?  yep, that sure is anders.

Lol, what about the part about animal abuse? Poor ser pounce a lot.
Edit: I do agree that Anders, fits some of the description of sociopath.

Modifié par Koffeegirl, 20 mars 2011 - 04:06 .

[Medhia Nox]

DarkAnnex - so you think sociopaths can never show emotion or they aren't sociopaths? I hope you're not one of those people who hates Black and White.

[Medhia Nox]

Lyssalu - you approve of blowing up buildings to prove a point, I really don't mind not agreeing with you.

[Koffeegirl]

the_baroness wrote...

Koffeegirl wrote...

Hawke: I think we should stop and rest. We've been running for hours. Let's make camp here.
Anders/Vegenance: You would stop to rest. You are sloth. You are not dedicated to the cause of freedom.

LOL.  Sadly, a definite possibility.    j/k  Justice would probably be watching Hawke...like a hawk, for any sign of corruption.  [/weak pun]

Darkannex wrote...

Also, I agree that since he wanted to die, the last thing he should get is a death. He deserves to see the world his actions have made. 

I totally agree.  A fitting punishment, I think.  I thought I saw a quote by the writer who wrote Anders...didn't she say something similar to this?  That he wanted to die, but it was sort of karmic justice if the PC made him live?  I thought I did...  

Yes, I spared Anders because of this too. I thought it fitting for him to see the suffering his actions caused in the aftermath.

Modifié par Koffeegirl, 20 mars 2011 - 04:09 .

[Darkannex]

Medhia Nox wrote...

DarkAnnex - so you think sociopaths can never show emotion or they aren't sociopaths? I hope you're not one of those people who hates Black and White.

I feel that sociopaths are unable to experience guilt or remorse, yes. In the true context of it being others. Gacy had guilt over his father dying while he was in jail, but I felt it was more of a hollow regret rather than an actual gutwrench of humanity crying out in him.  It felt less like 'because of my errors, my behavior, I didn't get to see my father before he died' and was more of a 'I was in jail, and didn't get to see him'. 

Anders says that 'HE' was too late to save Karl. Showing, in my opinion, that he had true guilt and remorse, linking his action (or inaction) with the unfortunate consequences. 

[Medhia Nox]

The freak flew into a wild rage when I told him I wouldn't help him sneak into the Chantry.

DarkAnnex - I think you're the one that stated you can warn the Holy Mother. Does she listen - or does she stay? I'm curious - the way this game is railroaded into one outcome, I'll assume she doesn't heed your warning.

((I ended up getting caught in the last act before I could talk to Anders about sneaking into the Chantry - I reloaded a save to play it))

[Darkannex]

From what others have said (I did not know that you could warn her), she refuses to leave, saying that she would not abandon her 'flock'.

And aye, he does react horribly should you refuse to help him. (darn pc keeps deleting this, it's a conspiracy!). It was pretty horrifying. I personally felt it was his madness. By act 3, he responds very poorly to everything, even attempts at levity by Varric.

[Medhia Nox]

Brodyaha - I'll go back and retry it tomorrow to get the exact words. He was VERY unhappy that I wasn't trusting him implicitly.

BTW - I was a Pro-Circle mage, so that might have made a difference.

He started the conversation off with a total lie. "I know having Justice with me is wrong. I know a way to separate us both. I need your help to find the ingredients."

I didn't realize I had been tricked until I realized that "silas petra" (or whatever it's called) was really synonymous with "salt peter" a primary ingredient in gun powder.

Also - he likely stole this formula from the Qunari - who have the recipe for gunpowder.

[lyssalu]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Lyssalu - you approve of blowing up buildings to prove a point, I really don't mind not agreeing with you.

what can i say, i'm an educated marxist whose views are being vastly oversimplified.  

Modifié par lyssalu, 20 mars 2011 - 04:31 .

[Darkannex]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Brodyaha - I'll go back and retry it tomorrow to get the exact words. He was VERY unhappy that I wasn't trusting him implicitly.

BTW - I was a Pro-Circle mage, so that might have made a difference.

He started the conversation off with a total lie. "I know having Justice with me is wrong. I know a way to separate us both. I need your help to find the ingredients."

I didn't realize I had been tricked until I realized that "silas petra" (or whatever it's called) was really synonymous with "salt peter" a primary ingredient in gun powder.

Also - he likely stole this formula from the Qunari - who have the recipe for gunpowder.

He was pretty bad in the conversation if you didn't agree with him. I had a femwarrior hawke who romanced him and he got really cold towards her hesitating. I refused him when he wanted me to distract Elthina, and that was a cold shower. 

Noone said he didn't lie, just that he did it badly. "Boom! Justice and I are free"... um yeah, not at all subtle or convincing  

He could have also gotten the recipe in DA:A. The Dwarves there used explosives. Remember, the ingredients were just the more obscure ones (I believe he specified he needed help with 'some' of them, forgive me if wrong), so he could have well had the rest already (lyrium sand, etc)

[Koffeegirl]

Hmmm since I'm the OP I think I want to create a poll for this thread to see what the majority thinks as a whole. Does anyone know how I would go about setting that up?
Also, for the poll how would you like it see it set up? I could set it up as Does Anders love Hawke? and 2 choices Yes or No
Or I could make it more specific for rival and friend romance. What would everyone like and would everyone be interested in a poll?


Edit: I see how to make a poll now. Do you want just 2 yes or no options or options for rival/friend romance?

Modifié par Koffeegirl, 20 mars 2011 - 04:40 .

[Sarah1281]

I think that if Anders loves Hawke then whether it's a friend or rival romance won't change things.

[Koffeegirl]

Ok, poll is up. Link is here and also adding link to OP.
http://social.biowar...20/polls/17197/

[Threeparts]

Just finished reading through most of the thread, and it raises some interesting points. To answer the basic question, I'll go with yes, Anders loves/loved Hawke. His feelings were honest. But he says it at the end: Hawke is the most important thing in his life, but freeing the mages has an importance beyond that, beyond his own life. He's dedicated what remains of his life and sanity to his cause, and while he wants Hawke by his side for it, he knows he will be driven to press on without his or her support.

One thing I rarely see brought up is the three years between Act II and Act III: how much has not only Anders, but Hawke changed in that time? The "Anders' Manifesto" papers around the house are funny and all, but Hawke has lived with him for all this time and undoubtedly heard every argument from him for freedom. Hawke has seen the templars changing as Meredith gains power, s/he would have seen the changing moods of the city. If Hawke has taken an interest in Anders' life and agrees with his points, s/he may very well have assisted him in helping mages out of the Gallows.

How much has all this changed Hawke? Is three years enough time for Hawke to see Anders as a liberating hero, or as a obsessed lunatic? Or does Hawke still see him as the same man he was at the start of the game?

It would have been helpful to have a scene at the beginning of Act III where Hawke could either reaffirm the relationship or choose to end it, to provide the sense that time has passed and both parties have changed and may no longer want the same things they wanted three years ago.

I realise this post wandered terribly off-topic, I'm sorry!

Modifié par Threeparts, 20 mars 2011 - 05:13 .

[Koffeegirl]

Threeparts wrote...

Just finished reading through most of the thread, and it raises some interesting points. To answer the basic question, I'll go with yes, Anders loves/loved Hawke. His feelings were honest. But he says it at the end: Hawke is the most important thing in his life, but freeing the mages has an importance beyond that, beyond his own life. He's dedicated what remains of his life and sanity to his cause, and while he wants Hawke by his side for it, he knows he will be driven to press on without his or her support.

One thing I rarely see brought up is the three years between Act II and Act III: how much has not only Anders, but Hawke changed in that time? The "Anders' Manifesto" papers around the house are funny and all, but Hawke has lived with him for all this time and undoubtedly heard every argument from him for freedom. Hawke has seen the templars changing as Meredith gains power, s/he would have seen the changing moods of the city. If Hawke has taken an interest in Anders' life and agrees with his points, s/he may very well have assisted him in helping mages out of the Gallows.

How much has all this changed Hawke? Is three years enough time for Hawke to see Anders as a liberating hero, or as a obsessed lunatic? Or does Hawke still see him as the same man he was at the start of the game?

It would have been helpful to have a scene at the beginning of Act III where Hawke could either reaffirm the relationship or choose to end it, to provide the sense that time has passed and both parties have changed and may no longer want the same things they wanted three years ago.

I realise this post wandered terribly off-topic, I'm sorry!

No apology necessary and you raise some valid points. I agree that a scene at the beginning of Act 3 would of been nice, especially perhaps those that did a rival romance. I did a friend mage romance on my first playthough, but my Hawke still was shocked and hurt that Anders did not trust her to tell of his plan (regardless of his intentions), and also did not agree with his decision. Also, Anders is not the same person in Act 3 as he was 3 years prior, so depending on what happened perhaps they could of chosed to part ways....both fighting for mage freedoms but using different methods.

[Kattack]

Threeparts wrote...

Just finished reading through most of the thread, and it raises some interesting points. To answer the basic question, I'll go with yes, Anders loves/loved Hawke. His feelings were honest. But he says it at the end: Hawke is the most important thing in his life, but freeing the mages has an importance beyond that, beyond his own life. He's dedicated what remains of his life and sanity to his cause, and while he wants Hawke by his side for it, he knows he will be driven to press on without his or her support.

One thing I rarely see brought up is the three years between Act II and Act III: how much has not only Anders, but Hawke changed in that time? The "Anders' Manifesto" papers around the house are funny and all, but Hawke has lived with him for all this time and undoubtedly heard every argument from him for freedom. Hawke has seen the templars changing as Meredith gains power, s/he would have seen the changing moods of the city. If Hawke has taken an interest in Anders' life and agrees with his points, s/he may very well have assisted him in helping mages out of the Gallows.

How much has all this changed Hawke? Is three years enough time for Hawke to see Anders as a liberating hero, or as a obsessed lunatic? Or does Hawke still see him as the same man he was at the start of the game?

It would have been helpful to have a scene at the beginning of Act III where Hawke could either reaffirm the relationship or choose to end it, to provide the sense that time has passed and both parties have changed and may no longer want the same things they wanted three years ago.

I realise this post wandered terribly off-topic, I'm sorry!

I think that's a very valid point. I'm going to have to start considering the how the time gaps might change my characters now, I think I've accidentally dismissed it between act 2 and 3. =/
I know I was watching a show yesterday and there was a line, "Do you think she could be sleeping in the same bed with him, living with him all this time, and not know that he's a terrorist?" (Not that I'm saying he IS, I don't want to have that argument.)
I don't think Hawke would have been nearly as surprised in the end as I was.

As a side note, I seriously am curious about the Anders Manifestos. Am I the only one who wanted to read them? (If they happen to be a codex and I'm an idiot, feel free to tell me.)

Modifié par Kattack, 20 mars 2011 - 05:21 .

[Koffeegirl]

Kattack wrote...

Threeparts wrote...

Just finished reading through most of the thread, and it raises some interesting points. To answer the basic question, I'll go with yes, Anders loves/loved Hawke. His feelings were honest. But he says it at the end: Hawke is the most important thing in his life, but freeing the mages has an importance beyond that, beyond his own life. He's dedicated what remains of his life and sanity to his cause, and while he wants Hawke by his side for it, he knows he will be driven to press on without his or her support.

One thing I rarely see brought up is the three years between Act II and Act III: how much has not only Anders, but Hawke changed in that time? The "Anders' Manifesto" papers around the house are funny and all, but Hawke has lived with him for all this time and undoubtedly heard every argument from him for freedom. Hawke has seen the templars changing as Meredith gains power, s/he would have seen the changing moods of the city. If Hawke has taken an interest in Anders' life and agrees with his points, s/he may very well have assisted him in helping mages out of the Gallows.

How much has all this changed Hawke? Is three years enough time for Hawke to see Anders as a liberating hero, or as a obsessed lunatic? Or does Hawke still see him as the same man he was at the start of the game?

It would have been helpful to have a scene at the beginning of Act III where Hawke could either reaffirm the relationship or choose to end it, to provide the sense that time has passed and both parties have changed and may no longer want the same things they wanted three years ago.

I realise this post wandered terribly off-topic, I'm sorry!

I think that's a very valid point. I'm going to have to start considering the how the time gaps might change my characters now, I think I've accidentally dismissed it between act 2 and 3. =/
I know I was watching a show yesterday and there was a line, "Do you think she could be sleeping in the same bed with him, living with him all this time, and not know that he's a terrorist?" (Not that I'm saying he IS, I don't want to have that argument.)
I don't think Hawke would have been nearly as surprised in the end as I was.

As a side note, I seriously am curious about the Anders Manifestos. Am I the only one who wanted to read them? (If they happen to be a codex and I'm an idiot, feel free to tell me.)

No, I didn't see them in a codex, but if you rival (romance or not) Anders after his personal quest in Act 2, when you do his questioning belief quest instead of putting milk out for the cat he is writing the manifesto. If you pick the right dialogue options he reads some of it to you. I can't remember word for word what he says.

[Kattack]

Koffeegirl wrote...

No, I didn't see them in a codex, but if you rival (romance or not) Anders after his personal quest in Act 2, when you do his questioning belief quest instead of putting milk out for the cat he is writing the manifesto. If you pick the right dialogue options he reads some of it to you. I can't remember word for word what he says.

Oooooh, I knew he was writing them in a rival romance but I didn't know part was read...
Off to YouTube! 

[HippieAnarchist]

Used him/her but loved him/her too.Hawke used Anders in a way, too.