130 réponses à ce sujet

[mikx82]

When does this Anders vs Sebastian choice occur?

and IF you do choose Sebastian over Anders, would you have ZERO (0) healer in your party?

thanks for any info you can give me

[Taleroth]

Bethany can be a healer, if you recover her before the end. Or the player can be a healer.

But you don't necessarily need a healer, either way.  Though going that route on higher difficulties would surprise me a little.

Modifié par Taleroth, 17 mars 2011 - 05:27 .

[Pileyourbodies]

This is a spoilers section so sorry about this but you make the choice after Anders nukes the chantry.

Yes you'll lose your healer, but you get Bethany back if you're not a mage yourself right before the very final battle!

[Raiil]

It happens right before the real end game begins.

And whether you depends on what you're playing as- I was the healing mage in the party, so if I had lost him, no big deal. If Bethany's around and you specced her as such, she can do that as well.

[AtreiyaN7]

Ummm, yeah, unless your sister Bethany survived, you're probably out a healer if you choose to kill Anders.

[mikx82]

@Pileyourbodies - ty! been reading through this forum since release so i dont mind spoilers (that's why i know theres a Sebastian vs Anders part) but i wasnt sure how far off that is

@everybody - yeah, been playing a Male Warrior so i really need the healer. It just came to me that I might be shooting myself on the foot if i chose Sebastian over Anders if that would mean i wont have any healer until the end of the game (imagine if that happened on Act 2 LOL)

gotta make sure I get Bethany back then. but... does the Chantry vs Grey Wardens choice for Bethany affect anything tho?

[sylvanaerie]

Carver showed up as a GW in the middle of the city battles for me. Not sure where Bethany does.

[Might Sephiroth]

Ihate have to made that choice, and kill Anders with a backstab that is dirty and wrong the writer may have two reasons to make it iin that way: 1) Please don't kill Anders 2) If you kill Anders you are a dirty blood backstaber.
Ps. Anders is the only one who never backstab you in the fade, he is loyal even if you have full rivalry with hin.

Blood Dirty choice Ever. Or you loose Sebastian or you loose Ander or both. everyone loose.

[Lazy Jer]

This is why I always stock up on healing/elfroot potions. I swear to dog I'm putting Lady Elegant's* kids through the Dragon Age equivalent of Yale by the end of the game. But to answer your question, maybe. Bethany can if you side with the mages and she's not dead. You can if you're a mage. But if you play your cards right you, I find you can get through a bunch of these missions without a healer.

*Lady Elegant, as if you didn't know, is the local potion maker.

[Karlone123]

Might Sephiroth wrote...

Ihate have to made that choice, and kill Anders with a backstab that is dirty and wrong the writer may have two reasons to make it iin that way: 1) Please don't kill Anders 2) If you kill Anders you are a dirty blood backstaber.
Ps. Anders is the only one who never backstab you in the fade, he is loyal even if you have full rivalry with hin.

Blood Dirty choice Ever. Or you loose Sebastian or you loose Ander or both. everyone loose.

Technically it's Vengance who doesn't backstab you in the Fade.

[Biotic_Warlock]

Why would you choose Seb?
He's so... so annoying... I kinda wish i had Anomen in my party.

[Might Sephiroth]

Karlone123 wrote...

Might Sephiroth wrote...

Ihate have to made that choice, and kill Anders with a backstab that is dirty and wrong the writer may have two reasons to make it iin that way: 1) Please don't kill Anders 2) If you kill Anders you are a dirty blood backstaber.
Ps. Anders is the only one who never backstab you in the fade, he is loyal even if you have full rivalry with hin.

Blood Dirty choice Ever. Or you loose Sebastian or you loose Ander or both. everyone loose.

Technically it's Vengance who doesn't backstab you in the Fade.

"Justice/Vengeance are two intertwind, Anders and Justice/Vengeance are one, the most scholar can't say were one end and another begin." The idea is Anders after unite with Justice are no more only Anders he is more. He is an Abomination just like Winne with the Spirit of Faith, if you like Anders in the game you like Justice too, In the fade Justice appear take control, but is not just like that, because Anders are Justice and vice versa.

[Might Sephiroth]

Biotic_Warlock wrote...

Why would you choose Seb?
He's so... so annoying... I kinda wish i had Anomen in my party.

Sebastian are not annoying, he really is a man of Faith, and he have strong principles and values, with a good background story, not like Anders of course, but good in his way,
Despite that, I'm looking for the roleplay side not to the estrategical side. Yes Anders is a very good healer, but the game is so... so easy you don't need a healer to beat de game if you are a good gamer.

[EricHVela]

Might Sephiroth wrote...

"Justice/Vengeance are two intertwind, Anders and Justice/Vengeance are one, the most scholar can't say were one end and another begin." The idea is Anders after unite with Justice are no more only Anders he is more. He is an Abomination just like Winne with the Spirit of Faith, if you like Anders in the game you like Justice too, In the fade Justice appear take control, but is not just like that, because Anders are Justice and vice versa.

And yet, Anders fights against Vengeance's compulsions, even regrets when he loses control.

One thing can have more than one part of it. Just because one cannot identify the threshold where one property exists versus another doesn't mean there are not situations where one property exists without the other.

By observation, they overlap and cannot be separated without losing something from one or both of them.

Real-life example: There have been cases where they cannot separate conjoined twins due to the sharing of organs, yet there are still two identities. Where one begins and the other ends would require determining who has what rights to which organs, something that they cannot define.

So, it's possible to have two different entities as one in certain situations and two in others.

[Might Sephiroth]

ReggarBlane wrote...

Might Sephiroth wrote...

"Justice/Vengeance are two intertwind, Anders and Justice/Vengeance are one, the most scholar can't say were one end and another begin." The idea is Anders after unite with Justice are no more only Anders he is more. He is an Abomination just like Winne with the Spirit of Faith, if you like Anders in the game you like Justice too, In the fade Justice appear take control, but is not just like that, because Anders are Justice and vice versa.

And yet, Anders fights against Vengeance's compulsions, even regrets when he loses control.

One thing can have more than one part of it. Just because one cannot identify the threshold where one property exists versus another doesn't mean there are not situations where one property exists without the other.

By observation, they overlap and cannot be separated without losing something from one or both of them.

Real-life example: There have been cases where they cannot separate conjoined twins due to the sharing of organs, yet there are still two identities. Where one begins and the other ends would require determining who has what rights to which organs, something that they cannot define.

So, it's possible to have two different entities as one in certain situations and two in others.

Like the Arishok in Blackpowder Cortesy you are right and wrong.
What the game says is an epic moral dilema, "Where justice without hate and impartial is only Justice, but justice applied with hate became Vengeance" When Anders became one with Justice, the Anders hate by the mage opression corrupted Justice and he are not more in your pure form, he became a force o Vengeance with no grasp of mercy.
What I saying is Anders/Justce/Vengeance yet recognize the principles of Justice but Vengeance ignore that so when hate take control of Anders he are not hinself he is Justice applied with hate.
In the fade Justice back to a pure form because there JUSTICE not Vengeance take control. In the real world Justice cease to be for Ander, and vice versa in the fade so on Fade Justice don't have influence by Anders hate.

[Jadebaby]

Anders > Sebastian.

[Adrian68b]

"Sebastian are not annoying, he really is a man of Faith, and he have strong principles and values, with a good background story, not like Anders of course, but good in his way,"

Man of faith, indeed. All his personal quests were murderous - except the one from Act 3, but that one was about Elthina. His only real principle during the game was unlimited vengeance. What was his threat in case you are not willing to kill Anders? To destroy Kirkwall and kill every living soul within? The deaths of so many innocents doesn't bothers him a bit. All he cares about is himself (and his "faith"). If he have the power, he would happily obliterate Thedas to save his beloved Chantry. He don't care at all about people. After ending his Act2 quest, he knew about Starkhaven being ruled by a half-witt. And he is no longer the tird son, but heir and prince. Does he cares about Starkhaven and its people? No way! After his hunger for vengeance is sated, he only cares about himself. I suspect also that at the end of Harriman quest, he would have gladly killed even the controlled Harriman children, if not for Hawke to intervene. I suspect that even with a dumb prince, Starkhaven is better off, considering Sebastian and his sense of justice.
Think about what would have Sebastian done in Hawke's place in Act2 if he would have learned about Orsino and his involvement with the serial killer. More likely he would have demanded a Rite of Anullement agaist the Circle, thus executing his own sister.
A thoroughly despicable character, the epitome of a Chantry kind of monster, a disgrace for mankind. Perfectly done by Bioware. I played him once, and after that I never installed his DLC. I refused to have Sebastian in Kirkwall, even as a rival or as a non played character. Only one thing would make me change my mind and play Sebastian again: the option to kill the bastard after he makes his Act3 threat.

Anders is waaaaay above Sebastian in every aspect (personality, morality, interractions). Anders is humourous and he deeply cares about people. Sebastian always sounded like a living, randomly quoting book of Chantry faith. Their first encounter is revealing. Anders is willing to stay in Darktown, facing dangers from thugs and carta gangs in order to heal the poor for free. Exactly what you would have expected from a priest, not an abomination. Instead, Sebastian shoots an arrow toward Elthina in order to push back his murderous request at the Chantry board. Anders only wants a better society and a place for mages in it, and nothing for himself; more, his is willing to sacrifice his own life. Even his act of terror is pure desperation. He knows that is no way for any Chantry member to willingly accept a change of dogma in order to free the mages, because the consequence is a reduction of Chantry influence over society. Not to mention the dangerous precedence about accepting that its faith was wrong. Also, the Chantry is not interested in replacing the Rite of Tranquility with a better solution, because of the usefulness of the tranquils (for the Chantry, of course - wealth, enchantments). Sebastian forced me to kill Anders once. After that, I never executed him.

Modifié par Adrian68b, 22 septembre 2012 - 12:37 .

[frostajulie]

there should have been a renegade interrupt to murder knife him when he went on his little rant that one time I spared Anders HELLO mage hawke here I feel the same way as him I stopped even playng with that guy after that playthru.

Sebastien really was a waste of space and resources.

But it would have been worth it to murder knife him.

Modifié par frostajulie, 22 septembre 2012 - 01:26 .

[babymoon]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Anders > Sebastian.

[Adrian68b]

"Sebastien really was a waste of space and resources."

In my opinion, not at all. The game needed such a character in order to deepen the understanding about the source of conflict between mages and Chantry/templars. I considered Sebastian as an immature princeling, with uncontrolled bursts of anger. He has no grasp of reality. His view about the world and people is idealistic, based of Chantry teaching. His decision in Act1 to prioritize on killing the mercenaries instead of finding out the master behind was bad. He escaped death by sheer luck. Lady Harimann could have easily finished him by hiring other assassins or even better some inside help. Approaching Petrice for instance, with an offer about being named Grand Cleric in Starkhaven. I considered his threat in Act 3 as serious because he was angry enough to just do it. But he isn't bad, in the sense of plotting to do evil. He is an example of how one could act if childish and educated by the Chantry. It just make sense. That is why I admire his development by Bioware.

Modifié par Adrian68b, 24 septembre 2012 - 07:58 .

[sylvanaerie]

Frankly, these are the two characters I dislike the most in DA2. Sebastian is less disliked than Anders to me only because I find his character very bland. Most playthroughs I take them along only for purposes of maxing out their approvals (rivalry for Anders, friend for Sebastian). The rest of the time they spend chilling in their respective 'home base'. I usually play mages (Spirit Healer) so Anders is redundant (and less effective than a PC healer), so I don't need him either. When I play a rogue/warrior, I have a mod that allows Merrill to use creation/spirit healer spells, again eliminating the need for Anders.

I've never been able to keep Anders alive through a single playthrough (though I have sent him away, seen Sebastian's hissy fit, and then killed him in the Gallows when he confronts Hawke on one of my 2 templar runs).  Frankly the murderknife scene is much more satisfying a confrontation than that one.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 24 septembre 2012 - 03:58 .

[Adrian68b]

I really liked Anders until his act of terror. He wanted to act in order to gain freedom for mages, but his logic was faulty. He considered the Circle of Kirkwall already doomed and acted in order to provoke an open conflict. The problem is, provoking a conflict is one thing, solving it in favor of mages quite another. If Meredith would have ordered a Rite of Anullement without any factual justification, and more with Elthina alive and remaining passive, the outcome would have been much more favorable. Instead he just offered Meredith the desired justification. I killed him once under threat (by Sebastian) but let him live in all other occasions, because I wanted him to live with the consequences of his actions. Maybe it sounds cruel.

I never considered his fate decided because of his healing abilities. In my first play I finished the game with 3 rogues (Hawke, Varric, Sebastian) and Aveline. I never use tactics (relying on direct instructions), so it was easy.

Modifié par Adrian68b, 24 septembre 2012 - 07:56 .

[DeathScepter]

To Adrian, Justice was more in control than Anders when they blow up the Chantry.

[Sylvanpyxie]

I considered Sebastian as an immature princeling, with uncontrolled bursts of anger.

I think he's a little more complicated than that, Sebastian is a character built entirely on personal conflict. He has two natures, he's lived two very different lives and feels two very different things. He's effectively torn apart by who is and who he wants to be.

Sebastian's defining characteristic is his impulsive, passionate nature. His choice to get Flint Company decimated was rash, impulsive and driven purely by his anger. He realizes that in Act2 when he starts to think of the "bigger picture", but even then he's nearly blinded by his rage when he realizes the betrayal. This is who he is - Completely and utterly ruled by emotion.

The other half is the obvious - Chantry Brother with the kind-heart, ready to dedicate himself to the Chantry and the Maker. The life he never wanted, but the life that was expected of him and the life he learnt to accept. He didn't accept it willingly either, he was convinced to return by Grand Cleric Elthina, who was effectively a Mother to him.

The only reason he eventually returned to the Chantry in Act3 is not because of the Chantry's teachings or his faith in the Maker, but because of Elthina, the only person he had left. He did it because he believed it was the only thing he could do - Return to the Chantry to protect the last person he had left.

He's a man with a nature he wasn't willing to accept, because he had been raised to believe that he could, and should, be a better man. He's a passionate, impulsive and rash young man that was told he should be so much more. He longed to be what people expected of him - Faithful, disciplined and dedicated to his faith.

He's a complete hypocrite, but he has two totally conflicting sides to him that are constantly at war. I found Sebastian to be the most compelling character in the game - Saying a lot considering how little content he had in comparison to others - and I considered his passionate nature to be almost admirable.

Call me crazy, but I'll pick Sebastian over Anders. Every time.

Modifié par Sylvanpyxie, 24 septembre 2012 - 11:50 .

[Adrian68b]

"To Adrian, Justice was more in control than Anders when they blow up the Chantry."

Possible. Based on the emotional reaction he displayed right before the explosion, I considered more likely his decision and not Justice's. But it may be that Anders was just more in control in that very moment; but I supposed the explosion was more likely a human decision. Also the chosen timing of the explosion. Justice would have simply killed Elthina and every priest, not at all concerned about when Meredith could have learned about the deed.

"Call me crazy, but I'll pick Sebastian over Anders. Every time."

Why should I? Your analysis seems very good. I could easily understand you.
Both Anders and Sebastian are childish and selfish, being raised in a secluded environment. The difference between them is rather about understanding human suffering and misery. Anders is more capable of this, because he experienced some degree of suffering himself, and saw it firsthand (in Darktown at least). Sebastian never had such a chance, as a former prince. And of course he loves Elthina, considering her his last living relative. Also I could understand Anders's feelings against the Chantry, based on the constant reminders (by the Circle priests) of how sinful his whole existence is, only because he was born a mage.
Both are passionate characters. But neither was my type of character. I chose Anders over Sebastian because of his intentions. His terror act is unforgivable. But Sebastian never had to make such a decision; he was always on the side of power as prince and priest. Still, his previous decisions (acts 1-2) were bad enough.

What I really admire is the effort made in developing all these characters. Each has a quality close of a movie performance by Ed Harris (ex. Copying Beethoven) or Viggo Mortensen (ex. Eastern Promises): great depth achieved in minimum playtime.

Modifié par Adrian68b, 25 septembre 2012 - 04:03 .