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[Shadow Fox]

DeathScepter wrote...

To Adrian, Justice was more in control than Anders when they blow up the Chantry.

Wrong Anders flat out tells you it was his choice to do it.

[sylvanaerie]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

DeathScepter wrote...

To Adrian, Justice was more in control than Anders when they blow up the Chantry.

Wrong Anders flat out tells you it was his choice to do it.

Actually if you rival him, he says "Vengeance took me over" at that point.  And I much prefer him rivaled, he's more aware of exactly what he's done with the whole merger, and he has less of a martyr/messianic complex at the end, telling Hawke "Kill me now before there is nothing of me left" and "you should have done this a long time ago".  

I think it's far crueler to leave him alive, dancing like a puppet on Justice's strings than to just murder him quietly at that point. My kinder Hawkes use that motivation.  Those that hate him actually relish using the blade thinking "About damn time..."

I used to wonder why people said Alistair made a sh*t king because I never left him unhardened in my early games.  Then did once and wanted to strangle him at the Landsmeet.  I think your perception of who's pulling the trigger depends on whether Anders is rivaled or friended.  I always got the impression it was Justice/Vengeance doing the blowing up, then retreating again to leave Anders to accept the consequences (or maybe Anders wrestles control when the spirit expends itself hitting whatever magical trigger causes the big boom).

[Adrian68b]

" I think your perception of who's pulling the trigger depends on whether Anders is rivaled or friended."

Intriguing... I never rivaled Anders, so I have absolutely no idea about his behavior as a rival. It is even possible that although the outcome is the same, his terrorist decision was made in different ways depending on rivalry/friendship with Hawke. I noticed that Anders always considered Hawke some kind of reference point. Really interesting.
But I don't think I am able to find out more firsthand. To agree with any action concerning enslavement of any kind is beyond me. Tevinter society was/remains a slaver one. But so does the Chantry, although on a lesser degree.

Modifié par Adrian68b, 25 septembre 2012 - 12:37 .

[sylvanaerie]

Adrian68b wrote...

" I think your perception of who's pulling the trigger depends on whether Anders is rivaled or friended."

Intriguing... I never rivaled Anders, so I have absolutely no idea about his behavior as a rival. It is even possible that although the outcome is the same, his terrorist decision was made in different ways depending on rivalry/friendship with Hawke. I noticed that Anders always considered Hawke some kind of reference point. Really interesting.
But I don't think I am able to find out more firsthand. To agree with any action concerning enslavement of any kind is beyond me. Tevinter society was/remains a slaver one. But so does the Chantry, although on a lesser degree.

***Spoilers below****

All my runs are mage friendly, out of over a dozen playthroughs, I've only sided with the templars twice, and that was to see scenes for Circle Carver and Bethany on templar side runs. It just requires a bit of metagaming, though, bringing him along only for points to rival him, leaving him behind when you do things Anders would approve of.

One of the few achievements I don't ever see myself getting is the 'sided with the templars' one where you have to do a lot of things I just can't bring myself to all in one playthrough even on the most mage hating, templar loving, Chantry devotee Hawke, (give the Starkhaven mages to the templars, give Feynriel to the templars--and murderknife him in the fade after--turn Keran in and make him lose his job, take Meredith's side in the argument in Act 3--before the act actually begins, when she's fussing with Orsino in Hightown). 

There are a few others, and while I have turned the starkhaven mages and Feynriel over to the circle, I just find the other requirements abhorrant, and can only go so far, even in a video game.  As I say, I've only done two out and out templar runs , and even then it was just side with them in the end.  It's all a matter of when you bring him along and what you do.  (I used wiki's approval page for him until I got familiar with it). 

I don't bring Anders with me when I do the Starkhaven mages' and Feynriel's quests , since I usually send them to the Dalish or let them escape, while I have Varric lie to the templars/slavers about where/who they are--Varric really shines in those scenes .  At that point I'm working on rivaling Fenris as well, so it would be at cross purposes to have both in my party.  If you let Varric talk your way out of the Feyriel quest encounter, letting them leave without violence, and then sending Feynriel to the Dalish it nets a whopping 20 rivalry with Fenris in one encounter.

My Hawke's take a harsher stand with his hypocrisy/behavior, leading to rivalry points when we interact. And being more understanding of blood mages (like Idunna and Merrill).  Telling Merrill that the demon 'did help' garners rivalry from Carver, Fenris and Anders (and doesn't affect her approval as she's not a teammate yet).  Sparing Idunna and sending the templars to get her, nets some rivalry from Anders as well--there is only the murderknife or templars option for her and the less violent of the two is send her to the Circle.  If you make the deal with the demon in the deep roads you can still kill it (gaining approval from Varric if you let him do it) and it comes off completely natural if you take the "we don't have any choice" option.  Someone told me Aggressive Hawke can actually intimidate the demon, so I'm going to give that a shot next run to see.  Making a deal with Torpor in the Fade will also net rivalry, break the romance and make Anders/Justice turn on you in the fade, but I've never been able to agree to that.  I like Feynriel too much.  Taking the harsher dialogue option in his Act 2 quest when you take him to task for nearly killing Ella nets rivalry (and in the the followup scene at his clinic---he also has a funny line about not knowing how to react to Hawke in that scene).

Also it will require you to reject Petrice's quest in Act 1 (initially--you can still do it) and you get I think 15 rivalry with him?  I think.  My RP reasoning is "I'm not going to be your fall guy, I don't trust you, lady".  Plus it garners approval from Varric who doesn't want to attract the attention of the big horned guys in the city.  You can still do the quest.  If you bring Anders along, allow Saraabas to choose his own fate (to go back and accept his death) making it his choice instead of forcing a 'freedom' he doesn't want onto him.  (He just kills himself anyway).

As I say, some metagaming is involved, but you can roleplay reasons your Hawke might say or do these things.

I usually take the "I don't hate mages and think they need their freedoms, but that doesn't mean I agree with what you've done, Anders" stance.  It even gives you a completely new scene in either act 2 or 3 I forget, where he is trying to get you on the mages side (which I do find jarring considering I have sided mages all along) with his manifesto.  And an additional scene after the Justice mission in Act 3 where you can almost convince him to stop what he's about to do.  (Then Justice steps out and throws a monkey wrench into that). That's the only down side to rivaling him, the game assumes you're all YAY Knight Commander Crazy, when really you just object to Anders.  At least from Anders' PoV, from everyone else your a champion of the mage cause.

It's a nice dichotomy to play as if Anders were the only mage you really object to, and fits my playstyle/attitude well.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 25 septembre 2012 - 02:18 .

[Adrian68b]

Fascinating! I already knew about most approval options, except those concerning siding heavily with the templars. Varric is at his best in act1, unfortunately nothing similar was done for acts 2-3 (I suspect because of the change of pace in development - most likely occurred after act1 ended). Isabela also seemed to enjoy Varric's tricks (Feynriel quest end in act1). So there are differences concerning Andres and his act3 decision, depending his relation with Hawke... it makes sense. I questioned him as much as was possible in act3, but Justice never intervened.
Thank you very much for these informations. I tried once to play Hawke as a warrior with templar training, but I canceled the game pretty soon.

Modifié par Adrian68b, 25 septembre 2012 - 03:03 .

[Xilizhra]

Personally, I hate the Anders rivalry and see it as vicious emotional abuse, especially if you happen to be "romancing" him at the time. If someone has dual personalities, turning them against each other strikes me as abhorrent, and he still seems rather stable at the very end if friended.

[Adrian68b]

"he still seems rather stable at the very end if friended"

Yes, that was also my feeling about him. Of course, I was always friendly with him. My decision to let him live at the end of act3 wasn't cruelty, but a way to offer him a chance to grown up and help solving his mess. Unfortunately such an approach was impossible with Sebastian.

Not to mention his humor. Those dialogues with Varric about Orzamar life, or with Merrill about cats were just great.

Modifié par Adrian68b, 25 septembre 2012 - 03:12 .

[Xilizhra]

Sebastian, sadly, is not inclined to grow up at all.

[Adrian68b]

"Sebastian, sadly, is not inclined to grow up at all."

The Chantry was at least half responsible for this. But maybe he will appear again in DA3. Any character deserves a second chance, from my part.

It seems that those posting at this thread are really good at analysing NPC's. I half expected some rather angry posts. It is really good to exchange opinions with people interested in understanding characters (their intentions, motives, backgrounds) and not just storming trough the game and killing everything killable. It is one of my main reasons for playing Bioware RPG's.

[sylvanaerie]

Xilizhra wrote...

Personally, I hate the Anders rivalry and see it as vicious emotional abuse, especially if you happen to be "romancing" him at the time. If someone has dual personalities, turning them against each other strikes me as abhorrent, and he still seems rather stable at the very end if friended.

Anders doesn't have a dual personality.  He has an outside possessing force which controls him in moments of stress.  That is not the same thing.  While my kinder Hawkes will friend him, I still find that feels wrong to me.  Mollycoddling him is not how I would handle the situation.  He is not 'stable' even if friended.  By Act 3 he's so batsh*t insane, it makes me wish I could murderknife him in Act 1 when he first tells you of the merger.  Even if you are 'nice to him and let him do whatever he wants/encourage his behavior' it doesn't stop him from doing what he does in Act 3.  In fact, he just feels justified doing it, and tells Hawke he'll be a martyr if killed.  I hate that scene friended, he's so deluded.  The rivalry seems more realistic to me.  As a friend he remains deluded, as a rival he at last acknowleges that he's out of control of the situation he created.

And you don't have to be a complete and utter ass to him to rival him, just don't cater to his world view.  There are plenty of situations in the game where you can rival him without being an ass (I posted some examples in my other post).  There is a difference between 'emotional abuse' and disagreeing with someone.  I don't agree with everything my friends and family tell me, and I have my own viewpoints I argue with them.  This is not emotional abuse, it's simply a difference of opinion.  That the game turns it into a game mechanic for approval is just how it's played out.

I never romance him, he creeps me out with his freaky, stalkerish and hypocritical behavior. He isn't someone I'd like as a friend in real life, I'm certainly not going to like him in a video game where I can deal with my antipathy in a manner that doesn't hurt anyone real.  And I don't have to like him, he's a video game character.

You can feel or think what you like, it's certainly a valid viewpoint as well, but I disagree with you.

[Xilizhra]

Anders doesn't have a dual personality. He has an outside possessing force which controls him in moments of stress. That is not the same thing. While my kinder Hawkes will friend him, I still find that feels wrong to me. Mollycoddling him is not how I would handle the situation. He is not 'stable' even if friended. By Act 3 he's so batsh*t insane, it makes me wish I could murderknife him in Act 1 when he first tells you of the merger. Even if you are 'nice to him and let him do whatever he wants/encourage his behavior' it doesn't stop him from doing what he does in Act 3. In fact, he just feels justified doing it, and tells Hawke he'll be a martyr if killed. I hate that scene friended, he's so deluded. The rivalry seems more realistic to me. As a friend he remains deluded, as a rival he at last acknowleges that he's out of control of the situation he created.

I would not have taken the action he did, but I acknowledge the willingness of his sacrifice and am willing to call him a martyr for a greater cause. I feel he's a good person pulled into a bad situation and feeling as if there's not a legitimate way out. Maybe there was, maybe there wasn't. But I completely agree with his worldview in general, I believe that the only times you aren't an ass while rivaling him is being understanding towards blood magic, and any Hawke who supports the templars can go to hell.

[sylvanaerie]

Xilizhra wrote...

Anders doesn't have a dual personality. He has an outside possessing force which controls him in moments of stress. That is not the same thing. While my kinder Hawkes will friend him, I still find that feels wrong to me. Mollycoddling him is not how I would handle the situation. He is not 'stable' even if friended. By Act 3 he's so batsh*t insane, it makes me wish I could murderknife him in Act 1 when he first tells you of the merger. Even if you are 'nice to him and let him do whatever he wants/encourage his behavior' it doesn't stop him from doing what he does in Act 3. In fact, he just feels justified doing it, and tells Hawke he'll be a martyr if killed. I hate that scene friended, he's so deluded. The rivalry seems more realistic to me. As a friend he remains deluded, as a rival he at last acknowleges that he's out of control of the situation he created.

I would not have taken the action he did, but I acknowledge the willingness of his sacrifice and am willing to call him a martyr for a greater cause. I feel he's a good person pulled into a bad situation and feeling as if there's not a legitimate way out. Maybe there was, maybe there wasn't. But I completely agree with his worldview in general, I believe that the only times you aren't an ass while rivaling him is being understanding towards blood magic, and any Hawke who supports the templars can go to hell.

Since I hate the templars too, I can agree with that.

[Lazy Jer]

Xilizhra wrote...

Sebastian, sadly, is not inclined to grow up at all.

Oh I don't know.  He seems to be able to solve his problems without blowing up major buildings.  To quote Aveline "Credit where it's due."

[Adrian68b]

In my case, the experience concerning Anders from DA:A was also important. His background wasn't something to envy: morally abused in the Circle, a hunted fugitive and then a Darktown dweller poorer than a mouse. He is to one-sided about mages, not willing to contemplate the whole picture (including dogma, traditions, fear for unknown). Maybe he just can't. In my first playthrough I hoped to be able to change his restricted view, but there wasn't any opportunity. I always considered his act3 decision selfish (I suspected his silence being influenced by Bethany being in the Circle) because he acted in behalf of all mages. But at least he was willing to cancel his plan in case of a last minute change from Elthina. But his willingness to sacrifice himself seemed authentic. In that climax scene he always appeared to me a bit ashamed because he has so little to offer, but not with his deed. Like a poor man ashamed that his gift is not much.
His hatred overwhelmed him, making him inhuman. From that moment he was no longer my Hawke's friend.

[Adrian68b]

"Oh I don't know. He seems to be able to solve his problems without blowing up major buildings."

Well, his problems never concerned fighting the whole Chantry and it's dogma. We'll never knew what would he done in case one of his friend would have been killed by some templar.
And compared to Anders, what he offers to others is little. But also, he's not used to think about others, being pampered all along.

[Adrian68b]

Some 2-3 years ago I saw a truly horrific documentary about a case from XVII century Sweden. A priest instigated the executions of roughly half of the women from a village, under accusations of witchcraft. The poor women only prepared herbs to tend their relatives. The horrific part concerned the executions (they were beheaded). Each of the women was held during execution by their male relatives (husbands, fathers, sons). And of course, the priest escaped unharmed.
Sadly, I could easily picture Sebastian doing something similar (his act3 threat being along this line). Not because of his nature, but because of Chantry teachings. Any religious dogma could became a reason for inhuman acts.

[sylvanaerie]

Adrian68b wrote...

In my case, the experience concerning Anders from DA:A was also important. His background wasn't something to envy: morally abused in the Circle, a hunted fugitive and then a Darktown dweller poorer than a mouse. He is to one-sided about mages, not willing to contemplate the whole picture (including dogma, traditions, fear for unknown). Maybe he just can't. In my first playthrough I hoped to be able to change his restricted view, but there wasn't any opportunity. I always considered his act3 decision selfish (I suspected his silence being influenced by Bethany being in the Circle) because he acted in behalf of all mages. But at least he was willing to cancel his plan in case of a last minute change from Elthina. But his willingness to sacrifice himself seemed authentic. In that climax scene he always appeared to me a bit ashamed because he has so little to offer, but not with his deed. Like a poor man ashamed that his gift is not much.
His hatred overwhelmed him, making him inhuman. From that moment he was no longer my Hawke's friend.

That's actually a very interesting take on the character.  I have to say I much preferred him in DAA where you can see shades of the fanatic he will become in DA2, but the situation still hadn't broken him yet.  He's still much saner.  Frankly, I wish they had chosen a different (new) NPC to play the same role in DA2.  Throwing Justice in the mix simplifies my dislike for him.  I'd have found another mage who isn't possessed and acting completely without spiritual prompting far more conflicted and compelling since there is no possessing spirit to 'blame' for things getting out of hand.  I feel the same about Knight Commander Crazy.  She was loony enough without putting the idol into the situation and it makes the whole insanity thing seem almost as if it were an outside source affecting her. 

Oddly enough, though my Hawkes usually rival him, most still think of him as a friend, falling in middle ground in their viewpoint in regards to him.  I had one Hawke who just completely hated his guts and butted heads with him constantly.  He's someone who tests them, makes them think about what they believe and should be doing with their lives, and how others perceive them.  This was the subject of one of my fanfics with a rivaled Anders. 

I found Anders selfishness particularly reflected in the dark turn his humor took in DA2, only amusing in a rare few exchanges when he seemed more like his old self, and some of the things he said were cringeworthy in their callousness or inappropriateness.  For example when he asks Aveline (a widow who had to put her husband to the sword because of the Blight) if she and Wesley ever played sexual games like "desire demon and hapless templar recruit".  Or says he hopes you find something "more than a bag of bones" while searching for Leandra in "All that Remains" in an ambient dialogue.  I just wanted to slap him and say "NO, you insensitive ASS, we'll find my mother has been sliced and diced and turned into some insane mage's booty toy!" I felt a lot of his characterization was at odds with the compassionate man depicted in Awakenings and with Justice as well, I just didn't see much of either of them in DA2's Anders, making him seem almost a completely different person save for a few moments and interchanges.

When he tells Orsino he'd rather die fighting, that's a valid viewpoint, but it isn't him fighting.  It's the men, women and children in the Circles he's condemned.  That Meredith would have called the Rite of Annulment anyway, we'll never know.  I think eventually she'd have found some excuse to do it anyway, Anders just made it easier for her by killing the Grand Cleric and removing that only partially effective deterrent.

While what he does is abhorrent to me, it is perhaps the only thing that could be done at that point.  The Circle was doubtless doomed anyway, this way he forces Hawke's hand to choose once and for all.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 25 septembre 2012 - 08:12 .

[sylvanaerie]

Adrian68b wrote...

Some 2-3 years ago I saw a truly horrific documentary about a case from XVII century Sweden. A priest instigated the executions of roughly half of the women from a village, under accusations of witchcraft. The poor women only prepared herbs to tend their relatives. The horrific part concerned the executions (they were beheaded). Each of the women was held during execution by their male relatives (husbands, fathers, sons). And of course, the priest escaped unharmed.
Sadly, I could easily picture Sebastian doing something similar (his act3 threat being along this line). Not because of his nature, but because of Chantry teachings. Any religious dogma could became a reason for inhuman acts.

I can't see Sebastian acting like this.  He's far too passive, indecisive and wishy washy to ever act in so horrifically emphatic a manner.  Perhaps going along with it if someone else is calling the shots maybe, but not instigating it himself.

[Lazy Jer]

Adrian68b wrote...

Some 2-3 years ago I saw a truly horrific documentary about a case from XVII century Sweden. A priest instigated the executions of roughly half of the women from a village, under accusations of witchcraft. The poor women only prepared herbs to tend their relatives. The horrific part concerned the executions (they were beheaded). Each of the women was held during execution by their male relatives (husbands, fathers, sons). And of course, the priest escaped unharmed.
Sadly, I could easily picture Sebastian doing something similar (his act3 threat being along this line). Not because of his nature, but because of Chantry teachings. Any religious dogma could became a reason for inhuman acts.

I'll have to disagree with you there on both points.  Sebastian, as someone mentioned before, sides with Hawke because the templars "went to far" presumedly meaning the call for the annulment.  So he does show that he is capable of applying his own morality to a situation regardless of what the people officially in charge (i.e. Meredith) are saying.  Secondly if the Chantry isn't even that screwed up.  If it was, why would they need a circle?  They'd just need an executioner.

[Adrian68b]

"Perhaps going along with it if someone else is calling the shots maybe, but not instigating it himself."

I don't know. Maybe, if he thinks his case is just. His reaction in act3 was insane. He could have easily threatened only Hawke (I will hunt you...). Instead he had chosen to threaten the whole city, mostly innocent people.
To be honest, I used the example rather as a factual case about dogma and insanity, not in direct relation with DA2 events. Still the attitude of Meredith (and some of the templars) is not so far ("It breaks my heart..." line). The priest from the related case wasn't a sadist. He considered his action as the will of God.

"So he does show that he is capable of applying his own morality to a situation regardless of what the people officially in charge (i.e. Meredith) are saying."

Maybe. Or maybe he just follows the others. His personal vengeance (concerning Elthina) solved, he is free to act. But if you chose to spare Anders...

"If it was, why would they need a circle? They'd just need an executioner."

Not so simple. Even if mages are relatively few (a small percentage in Thedas), they are not isolated. A mage child is possible in any family. Just imagine what would happen if the child in question is a king's, or a noble's one. Not to mention the Emperor.

Modifié par Adrian68b, 25 septembre 2012 - 09:18 .

[Sylvanpyxie]

Not because of his nature, but because of Chantry teachings.

Red flag.

Sebastian's "Chantry Teachings" don't mean jack to him. It's a life he was forced into, and while he believes in the Maker well enough(and some part of him believes he should be in the Chantry, protecting Elthina or fulfilling his "duty" as a son of Starkhaven), the only thing that would ever drive him to take any kind of action, be it good or bad, would be his emotions - Without any consideration what so ever for his teachings within the Chantry.

The Chantry Teachings are never, NEVER, on Sebastian's mind when he comes to a decision.

Honestly, I dislike it when people consider Sebastian to be a zealot - He isn't, his devotion to the Chantry always plays second fiddle to his own personal beliefs. The Chantry is effectively a safety blanket, something he hides behind when he's stuck in a moral dilemma - if he knows what he wants, he has no problem leaving the Chantry in the dust as he pursues what his heart thinks is right.

Basically - Sebastian's personal beliefs > Chantry.

He wouldn't slaughter a truck-load of innocents in the name of the Chantry, or because of "Chantry Teachings". Not. Ever.

[Adrian68b]

"I'd have found another mage who isn't possessed and acting completely without spiritual prompting far more conflicted and compelling since there is no possessing spirit to 'blame' for things getting out of hand. I feel the same about Knight Commander Crazy. She was loony enough without putting the idol into the situation and it makes the whole insanity thing seem almost as if it were an outside source affecting her."

I agree completely. This part of the plot is too artificial. Maybe, in the case of Anders/Justice they wanted to offer hints about the difference between justice and vengeance. Not everybody is as good as you to understand a complex drama. In the case of the Idol, I really don't know. My wide guess in along some hidden plot. I have no clear idea about how Bartrand got his information, and/or if somebody else was involved all along. But to connect this with Meredith, seems unrealistic (some entity controlling the idol?). It is possible that a significant plot development was just cancelled. Or it was simply an idea about an apparently insignificant and isolated element (discovery of the idol) with dramatic future consequences.

Modifié par Adrian68b, 25 septembre 2012 - 10:06 .

[Adrian68b]

"The Chantry Teachings are never, NEVER, on Sebastian's mind when he comes to a decision."

Good point! The priest from my example acted as he considered fit according his mission (to purge the world of any Devil's follower). It is not the case of Sebastian. Elthina mentioned that Sebastian was a good preacher. But it is a thing of the past for in-game Sebastian.
I was thinking about something more subtle, and only related to mages. Sebastian already knew about Anders being possessed. He could have been enraged by such an act made by an abomination. But your explanation is better than mine, and simpler. It's only about Elthina. Even his threat of vengeance concerning innocents.
I met a lot of devout people more involved in their personal relation with God than in any relationship with humans, even family. But I'm not sure anymore if Sebastian is such a case. His immaturity and lack of self-control doesn't depend on Chantry teaching.

Modifié par Adrian68b, 25 septembre 2012 - 10:16 .

[Adrian68b]

"This was the subject of one of my fanfics with a rivaled Anders."

You wrote a fantasy story about Hawke?

[Xilizhra]

When he tells Orsino he'd rather die fighting, that's a valid viewpoint, but it isn't him fighting. It's the men, women and children in the Circles he's condemned. That Meredith would have called the Rite of Annulment anyway, we'll never know. I think eventually she'd have found some excuse to do it anyway, Anders just made it easier for her by killing the Grand Cleric and removing that only partially effective deterrent.

Ser Karras says outright that Meredith has sent for the Right of Annulment at the beginning of Act 3. Kirkwall's Circle was completely screwed no matter what Anders did, he just had it happen at a time of his choosing rather than Meredith's, and you know, plenty got out alive. Including, in my own playthrough, Anders.
I don't see Anders as selfish in the slightest. He's the most selfless person in the party, it's just that he doesn't think like a normal human anymore, because he's half spirit. So his expressions of such are... odd, to mortal eyes. But he's never stopped meaning well and wanting to help everyone he can.