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[sylvanaerie]

Adrian68b wrote...

"This was the subject of one of my fanfics with a rivaled Anders."

You wrote a fantasy story about Hawke?

Sure did.  I'm Ravenia on FF.Net.  Here's a link to my profile page where you can see them.  If you're curious, chapter 2 and 3 has Anders' dialogues from the scenes I discussed earlier.

http://www.fanfictio.../590454/Ravenia

[Xilizhra]

Honestly, I think that, along with Aveline and Merrill, Anders is... really not on the selfish side at all. Isabela is obviously the most selfish one, but Sebastian and then Fenris come in behind. Varric's in the middle.

[sylvanaerie]

Xilizhra wrote...

Honestly, I think that, along with Aveline and Merrill, Anders is... really not on the selfish side at all. Isabela is obviously the most selfish one, but Sebastian and then Fenris come in behind. Varric's in the middle.

I think it's a case of perception here.  5 different people witnessing the same scene will each give 5 different accounts.  Are they lying? No.  They have each perceived something in a different manner.  

So, if you choose to believe Anders isn't selfish, that's your perception of him, and I won't argue that.  It is a valid interpretation based on what the game shows you.  I, however, do perceive him as selfish, and I'm not likely to change my position as I can see instances in the game that displays selfishness (a trait consistent with his Awakenings characterization as well), and so I feel my perception is just as valid. 

Let us just agree to disagree on this point, please.

[Adrian68b]

"I don't see Anders as selfish in the slightest. He's the most selfless person in the party, it's just that he doesn't think like a normal human anymore, because he's half spirit. So his expressions of such are... odd, to mortal eyes. But he's never stopped meaning well and wanting to help everyone he can."

There are different kinds of selfishness. Anders is not the type of power-hungry career-obsessed selfish. Nor is Sebastian. To begin with, both are immature. Anders lived most of his live in a Circle, an environment similar to a never ending school. Not the perfect setting for maturing. In the Circle he found no purpose.

I read a marvelous essay by Michael Crichton about happiness. He stated that a truly happy life is related to a chosen purpose for one's life, an internal sense.

Wynne found such one in teaching. Anders just became angry. Being angry is exactly what a child would do if things are not happening his way. In DA:A he was more an angry character than anything else. He accepted the Joining rather as a way to upset the templars. I suspect he remained a time as GW because he needed the friendship and appreciation from the Hero & Co. After he fused with Justice (it doesn't seem to be a classical possession) he found for the first time in his life a purpose in freeing the mages.
In DA2 we encounter him first in his clinic, helping the destitute (influence from Justice? or an understanding based of his own suffering?). Anders never did such a thing in DA:A. Caring for others is a sign of growing up. But Anders is still immature. He rejects any opposing viewpoint (rivalry with his is then easy even for a pro-mage Hawke). His plan in act3 is decided and executed ALONE. He practically had decided the fate of mages single-handed. Now that is selfish.

Modifié par Adrian68b, 26 septembre 2012 - 09:47 .

[Adrian68b]

"Sure did. I'm Ravenia on FF.Net. Here's a link to my profile page where you can see them. If you're curious, chapter 2 and 3 has Anders' dialogues from the scenes I discussed earlier."

Thank you very much for sharing your stories. Reading through Chapter 1 right now.

... I finished "Vengeance is Mine". Excellent writing! Also Hawke as you played him is very coherent. He seemed close to Kaladin from "The Way of Kings". I recommend you this novel (by Brian Sanderson) - in case you didn't read it already. But ... WOW! All those Anders dialogue lines from chapter 2 are in-game? That's how Anders behave if you rival him? And also his words in chapter 3... I encountered some of those lines in my playthrough also, but not all of them. If all this is Anders in act3 final, I understand your choice concerning him. It makes perfect sense to kill Anders, instead of leaving him a tool for Vengeance. Also, the story about spirits, demons and mage possession make sense. I suspected much since DA:O from the Mage Origin. Demons doesn't seemed able to possess mages unless they share the same "ideal".
Also, the intention of using Justice alongside Anders in DA2 has more value. A fusion between my Warden and Justice would have been different. The GW was quite a just man; instead Anders was just angry in DA:A. It explain a lot about Wynne to.

Thank you again for sharing.

Modifié par Adrian68b, 26 septembre 2012 - 09:33 .

[sylvanaerie]

Adrian68b wrote...

"I don't see Anders as selfish in the slightest. He's the most selfless person in the party, it's just that he doesn't think like a normal human anymore, because he's half spirit. So his expressions of such are... odd, to mortal eyes. But he's never stopped meaning well and wanting to help everyone he can."

There are different kinds of selfishness. Anders is not the type of power-hungry career-obsessed selfish. Nor is Sebastian. To begin with, both are immature. Anders lived most of his live in a Circle, an environment similar to a never ending school. Not the perfect setting for maturing. In the Circle he found no purpose.

I read a marvelous essay by Michael Crichton about happiness. He stated that a truly happy life is related to a chosen purpose for one's life, an internal sense.

Wynne found such one in teaching. Anders just became angry. Being angry is exactly what a child would do if things are not happening his way. In DA:A he was more an angry character than anything else. He accepted the Joining rather as a mean to upset the templars. I suspect he remained a time as GW because he needed the friendship and appreciation from the Hero & Co. After he fused with Justice (it doesn't seem to be a classical possession) he found for the first time in his life a purpose in freeing the mages.
In DA2 we encounter him first in his clinic, helping the destitute (influence from Justice? or an understanding based of his own suffering?). Anders never did such a thing in DA:A. Caring for others is a sign of growing up. But Anders is still immature. He rejects any opposing viewpoint (rivalry with his is then easy even for a pro-mage Hawke). His plan in act3 is decided and executed ALONE. He practically had decided the fate of mages single-handed. Now that is selfish.

You make a good point with the immaturity thing, and you've called it I think. 

The thing with the clinic that has always bothered me is, you see less and less of this being mentioned in later acts.  You can see he still practices in Act 2 because of the scene with Isabela (or if Issa is in your group, Seneshal Bran).  By act 3, there is little to no mention of it, not even in passing. 

His attitudes toward mages and the common man have shifted markedly.  He lumps all mages in the category of 'good guy' and everyone else by dint of they can't work magic becomes 'the bad guy'.  In the "Faith" quest when Leliana says that the Revolutionists will make everything 'dangerous' by their actions, Anders snidely replies 'dangerous for you'.  Dumb ass, does he really believe mages live in a bubble and won't be affected by their actions?  By now his anger has consumed him and his obsession is all encompassing.  He is more Justice/Vengeance, a creature without compassion, than Anders.  His banters are bitter and lack even the attempt at humor (however innappropriate) experienced in earlier acts.

What little empathy he evinces after blowing up the Chantry seems more an afterthought, as if the lives lost in the Circles throughout Thedas because of it are 'acceptable losses', or at the least it wasn't something he was expecting to be the outcome, showing poor foresight, at it's kindest interpretation, an uncaring ego at it's worst.  I think his attitude falls somewhere between these two extremes, but his execution and dialogues are more along the lines of a child, which fits Justice's personality well, since he sees things in very black and white, allowing no deviation for shades of grey, or nuances like the lives of all the innocents who will be lost in this action.

In a scene prior to this, he's shown giving away his few possessions (including a pillow his mother made him, and the only thing he had left of her), showing he is aware he's probably going to die after doing this, (either at Meredith's hand or--I think he's hoping--by Hawke's) and that he is aware of what is happening.  Perhaps he feels that is 'justice' for his actions, I don't know.  He still lacks the ability to stop what is happening or cares enough to stop it.  "There is no one I would not kill to see mages free".  If Rivaled, at least you can almost talk him out of it, friended, he's just so exultant and pleased with himself, it's easy to see it's Justice (not Anders) calling the shots (at least to me).

Maybe Meredith would have called the Rite of Annulment eventually, it's not a sure thing in act 3 regardless of what Ser Kerras says, but with the Grand Cleric there, she couldn't have gotten away with calling it without Chantry sanction, (remember Gregoir was waiting in Origins for the sanctions, and his circle really was overrun with blood mages, abominations and demons, with a Blight screaming at the door).  She may have had her cronies, and she weilds a great deal of power in Kirkwall, but she isn't all powerful.  As seen even on a templar run, Cullen (her second in command) questions the validity of this.  There are others who also question Meredith's actions.  She has her supporters I'm sure but the only one depicted in the game by act 3 is Ser Karras (if he's still alive, he doesn't even survive Act 1 on several of my runs) and a couple templars in the Act 3 nobles quest (if you side mages, I've never taken Meredith's side in that argument so I am unsure what the parallel one is for the templars).  Just as we have Cullen already beginning to question her and Thrask who actively moves against her.  Even as early as Act 1, if you kill him fast enough and loot the body, the Templar Lieutenant who goes after Anders in the Karl quest has a letter on him reprimanding him for being soft on the 'robes' by Ser Alrik and that he will take military action against the man if he doesn't do as he's ordered.

The Tranquil solution that Alrik was advocating got shot down not just by the Grand Cleric, but Meredith herself.  Not because of any great love for mages, but because it's illegal by Chantry law.  Of course, Hawke put an end to that in Act 2.  Good riddance to bad rubbish, I say.  Anders was astonished that Alrik was doing this without Meredith's or the Grand Cleric's sanction.  At least he still seemed reasonable in Act 2, even if he nearly killed a mage child in a fit of Justice-pique.

He does not take contradiction in any act well, and his immature responses begin with his first conversation after killing Karl.  it's all about memememememe and the Justice merger, and he hasn't even washed Karl's blood off his hands.  The second conversation after that, when it's barely been long enough to process the death and he starts putting the moves to get into Hawke's pants.  A female Hawke he doesn't out and out say "Karl was my lover", but he does allude to that for a male Hawke.  Really? Just met me, killed your friend/boyfriend and already you're putting the moves on me?  Back off creepy stalker dude.  And he takes the rejection badly, pouting like a child (and continuing to hold a torch to the point he badmouths Hawke's LI 7 years later during "Justice" in Act 3).  Like a child, during this quest, he pulls the manipulation card and out and out lies to Hawke (Tevinter potion to separate them, my ass) to get Hawke's assistance in Act 3.  (If rivaled he says Hawke is in KC Crazy's pocket.  Been a while since I friended him so unsure what he says if you balk at helping him as a friend).

And, as you say, he acts alone to decide everything for every other person in Thedas, mage and mundane alike.  His dialogue throughout the game smacks of he doesn't want to get taken back to the circle.  Maybe they meant to show the paranoia that other mages besides Hawke feel, but if so, it was executed in such a way as to make him come across as selfish to me.

So, yea, these are some of the things that make him come off as selfish to me.  Add to that the messianic/martyr complex he demonstrates at the end, just ties it all up, and ensures he doesn't make it to the end of any of my playthroughs.

And before his supporters start freaking out, and flaming me, just chill.  I recognize others may perceive his actions differently than I do, and I'm okay with that.  All the above is just my opinion.  As i said in another post, I know 5 different people will see the same thing, and offer up 5 different accounts of what's happened, and none would be lying.  This is just my opinion on the character.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 26 septembre 2012 - 10:54 .

[Adrian68b]

"His attitudes toward mages and the common man have shifted markedly. He lumps all mages in the category of 'good guy' and everyone else by dint of they can't work magic becomes 'the bad guy'. In the "Faith" quest when Leliana says that the Revolutionists will make everything 'dangerous' by their actions, Anders snidely replies 'dangerous for you'. Dumb ass, does he really believe mages live in a bubble and won't be affected by their actions? By now his anger has consumed him and his obsession is all encompassing. He is more Justice/Vengeance, a creature without compassion, than Anders."

I remember only the Sebastian quest line (I played it only once, more than a year ago) but I noticed Anders replying oddly to Leliana.

I got Merrill's Healer mode and I will play DA2 twice more, once with Anders befriended and once rivaled. I will try to get full rivalry with him while being full time at the mages side (don't know if is possible, but I have some ideas). Also, I want to use Anders full time in Legacy (I never did it). A kind of controlled research, changing just the minimum - only the relation with Anders.

I always turned down Anders as LI, so he never told me about Karl. Quite selfish from his part, trying to get a new LI so soon. This is also a possible sign of insecurity. What a curious character! Now I begin to question if he really matured a bit from DA:A, or it's just Justice acting. You offered me some new paths for observing Anders.

Modifié par Adrian68b, 26 septembre 2012 - 11:33 .

[sylvanaerie]

Adrian68b wrote...

"His attitudes toward mages and the common man have shifted markedly. He lumps all mages in the category of 'good guy' and everyone else by dint of they can't work magic becomes 'the bad guy'. In the "Faith" quest when Leliana says that the Revolutionists will make everything 'dangerous' by their actions, Anders snidely replies 'dangerous for you'. Dumb ass, does he really believe mages live in a bubble and won't be affected by their actions? By now his anger has consumed him and his obsession is all encompassing. He is more Justice/Vengeance, a creature without compassion, than Anders."

I remember only the Sebastian quest line (I played it only once, more than a year ago) but I noticed Anders replying oddly to Leliana.

I got Merrill's Healer mode and I will play DA2 twice more, once with Anders befriended and once rivaled. I will try to get full rivalry with him while being full time at the mages side (don't know if is possible, but I have some ideas). Also, I want to use Anders full time in Legacy (I never did it). A kind of controlled research, changing just the minimum - only the relation with Anders.

I always turned down Anders as LI, so he never told me about Karl. Quite selfish from his part, trying to get a new LI so soon. This is also a possible sign of insecurity. What a curious character! Now I begin to question if he really matured a bit from DA:A, or it's just Justice acting. You offered me some new paths for observing Anders.

The only time it gets sticky is when you encounter Saraabas.  You need to first refuse the quest (you can do it immediately after) and when you encounter the Arvaraad, let him go back to the Qun.  The way my Hawkes perceive it is, initally, this is Petrice trying to set Hawke up for some kind of fall, (when refusing the quest) and later, acknowleging that Saraabas has the right to make his own choice.  (Even if you fight them off for his 'sake' he tells you that Petrice was using you then immolates himself).  Some people are so bound by their path/culture, any form of change is too frightening to contemplate.  You will net quite a few rivalry points with him for that.  And it kind of illustrates that he cannot conceive of anyone not wanting to be free, even if they demonstrate it right in front of him.

You don't need to be an ass (or even pick templar friendly choices when he's with you).  When you free Keran, don't take the option to have Anders 'check him for possession' which will negate the rivalry points (I just RP that Hawke doesn't think of doing that).  Tell him you have to tell the templars there's a chance he may be possessed.  This is something I would do considering if he is, he's going to wreak havok on the city, and you can ensure he keeps his job.  Both of these choices will net approval with Aveline, I forget if the "job" one gives approval for Anders or not.  I think he's neutral (I've always just removed him from the party before telling Cullen).  Letting Idunna live also nets 5 rivalry, though I am uncertain if it's because she's a blood mage or because she's being turned over to the templars.  And by the time you get to giving him the tevinter amulet gift in Act 2, it should trigger rivalry instead of friendship.  Choosing more aggressive answers in your dialogues with him works as well, but I never found the need to be an ass to him, just contradictory to his views.

Siding with the demon in the deep roads nets 15 rivalry.  (This is negated somewhat by 5 approval if you choose to make Carver/Bethany a Grey Warden).  If  you have Legacy, the Dumat altar quest nets 5 rivalry (if you don't destroy it) and telling him the Chantry is right (about the Tevinter mages--certainly they were about Corypheus, even if its couched in rhetoric and mythology) gets you another 5.  If you side with Janeka instead of Larius, you get 5 more rivalry (I think, I've never done it, just read it).

I've never taken him into MotA but since that's the "Tallis song and dance" DLC, it could be it doesn't affect his approval ratings.  I do hear he has good dialogues in there though.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 26 septembre 2012 - 12:18 .

[Adrian68b]

"I forget if the "job" one gives approval for Anders or not"

I gained 5p friendship asking him to test Keran, so I would cancel that. But I think I could get 5p rivalry in the Rose while questioning Iduna, if I have both Andres and Bethany. If Hawke is asking Bethany instead of Anders to help (I once tried every possible outcome). Concerning Saraabas, you need to give S up to Arvaraad? I never did, because I never get the chance. If you mention a mage, Arvaraad just go bersek. Of course, there is the approval of Merrill's blood magic in Act1 Sundermount, but I would try to avoid that if possible. I played MOTA with Anders, and don't remember about rivalry chances. But is good to know about Legacy and a possible 15p R. I played Legacy only with Warric, Bethany and Aveline. Do you remember any rivalry chances with Anders in Sebastian questline? I intend to give Sebastian another shot.

Modifié par Adrian68b, 26 septembre 2012 - 12:25 .

[sylvanaerie]

Adrian68b wrote...

"I forget if the "job" one gives approval for Anders or not"

I gained 5p friendship asking him to test Keran, so I would cancel that. But I think I could get 5p rivalry in the Rose while questioning Iduna, if I have both Andres and Bethany. If Hawke is asking Bethany instead of Anders to help (I once tried every possible outcome). Concerning Saraabas, you need to give S up to Arvaraad? I never did, because I never get the chance. If you mention a mage, Arvaraad just go bersek. Of course, there is the approval of Merrill's blood magic in Act1 Sundermount, but I would try to avoid that if possible. I played MOTA with Anders, and don't remember about rivalry chances. But is good to know about Legacy and a possible 15p R.

Don't mention anyone in the group as being a mage, not Anders, Bethany, Merrill or even yourself, that triggers a fight.  These are freaky fanatics (I never said I liked them) who will react poorly to realizing there are 'free saraabas' in your group.  I think there's an option to say something like "my job was to get him out of the city, if he chooses to go back to you, that's his decision".

And yea, I think you have to have Bethany (or be a mage Hawke yourself) in the Idunna confrontation, don't call on him to help you.

I know some stuff is hard to do (there are some things I just can't bring myself to do even in a video game), but I wish you luck.  I'm not telling  you how to play, just offering up some ideas how you can RP this particular Hawke did something without being a complete ass about it.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 26 septembre 2012 - 12:25 .

[Adrian68b]

"Don't mention anyone in the group as being a mage, not Anders, Bethany, Merrill or even yourself, that triggers a fight. These are freaky fanatics (I never said I liked them) who will react poorly to realizing there are 'free saraabas' in your group. I think there's an option to say something like "my job was to get him out of the city, if he chooses to go back to you, that's his decision"."

Perfect! So there is a big amount of rivalry to be gained in Saarebas quest? Never liked the qunari either.
Well, if I include rivalry from Merrill's dialogue, Anders could be full rival in Act1. I play Legacy in act1, just before Deep Roads. Then I will be able to compare the two Anders.

Modifié par Adrian68b, 26 septembre 2012 - 12:29 .

[sylvanaerie]

Oh forgot the Merrill blood magic one. That's the only thing that sounds odd to me, but it is something I do to up his, Fenris and Carver's rivalries because it's something relatively innocuous like "It did help" which isn't lying, nor really conveying any great stance of approval either.

Still feels odd to me. I have to head canon that it's too soon for Hawke (esp a non mage Hawke) to have formed a strong opinion about blood magic/blood mages, and Merrill really is a sweet creature, very much at odds with all the other blood mage freakazoids running round Kirkwall.

[Adrian68b]

"Still feels odd to me. I have to head canon that it's too soon for Hawke (esp a non mage Hawke) to have formed a strong opinion about blood magic/blood mages, and Merrill really is a sweet creature, very much at odds with all the other blood mage freakazoids running round Kirkwall."

I understand. I feel the same. I always play a rogue Hawke, but still... his father, sister (too much magic lore available). A bit odd, so far I avoided it. There is any difference about Anders interracting with Hawke depending on played class? Especially if Hawke is mage?

"Siding with the demon in the deep roads nets 15 rivalry."

You mean Hawke must accept the demon's offer? Or he can change his mind, and kill the demon after agreeing first?

Modifié par Adrian68b, 26 septembre 2012 - 12:50 .

[sylvanaerie]

Adrian68b wrote...

"Still feels odd to me. I have to head canon that it's too soon for Hawke (esp a non mage Hawke) to have formed a strong opinion about blood magic/blood mages, and Merrill really is a sweet creature, very much at odds with all the other blood mage freakazoids running round Kirkwall."

I understand. I feel the same. I always play a rogue Hawke, but still... his father, sister (too much magic lore available). A bit odd, so far I avoided it. There is any difference about Anders interracting with Hawke depending on played class? Especially if Hawke is mage?

I don't recall there being a lot of 'class specific' dialogue.  Just some minor references like "you're a mage yourself...." rather than "your own sister is a mage..." and if your import is a Surana/Amell, he will say something in one dialogue like "The hero of Ferelden was a mage" vs, "The blight was stopped by a couple of mages" (Wynne and Morrigan).  I think...I seem to remember something along those lines.

These are paraphasing of his dialogues, I don't recall the particulars, as it's been several months (since I've been more into SWTOR than DA2 the past few months).

[sylvanaerie]

Adrian68b wrote...

"Don't mention anyone in the group as being a mage, not Anders, Bethany, Merrill or even yourself, that triggers a fight. These are freaky fanatics (I never said I liked them) who will react poorly to realizing there are 'free saraabas' in your group. I think there's an option to say something like "my job was to get him out of the city, if he chooses to go back to you, that's his decision"."

Perfect! So there is a big amount of rivalry to be gained in Saarebas quest? Never liked the qunari either.
Well, if I include rivalry from Merrill's dialogue, Anders could be full rival in Act1. I play Legacy in act1, just before Deep Roads. Then I will be able to compare the two Anders.

I've played Legacy in Act 1 with Bethany, and she has some interesting dialogue that foreshadows the events in Act 2 and 3.  Carver's were rather disappointing.  I always do Legacy with (Sibling, Anders and Varric since they have the best dialogues and cutscene interactions).  I have played with all the other companions at some point, but found I just really like those three the best.  You won't be at full rivalry with Anders (unless you also turn over the starkhaven mages and send Feynriel to the circle I guess, I am unsure as I don't usually do it) till some time in Act 2.

I'm curious, do you ever do the romance subplot (with anyone) in the game?

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 26 septembre 2012 - 01:12 .

[sylvanaerie]

Adrian68b wrote...

"Still feels odd to me. I have to head canon that it's too soon for Hawke (esp a non mage Hawke) to have formed a strong opinion about blood magic/blood mages, and Merrill really is a sweet creature, very much at odds with all the other blood mage freakazoids running round Kirkwall."

I understand. I feel the same. I always play a rogue Hawke, but still... his father, sister (too much magic lore available). A bit odd, so far I avoided it. There is any difference about Anders interracting with Hawke depending on played class? Especially if Hawke is mage?

"Siding with the demon in the deep roads nets 15 rivalry."

You mean Hawke must accept the demon's offer? Or he can change his mind, and kill the demon after agreeing first?

Accept the offer initially (choosing it, the dialogue is "We don't have much choice") and when you get to the door, the demon confronts  you (at the treasure) and you get the option to have Varric one shot it (netting Varric approval) or kill it yourself and fight a few more minor shades after.--I also asked for Anders opinion what we were encountering in that cutscene and he explains it's a demon of Hunger.

I've heard an Aggressive Hawke can intimidate it, but I am unsure if that's at the initial meeting or later one.  But next William I make I'm gonna try that!

There are no rivalry options with Anders in any of Sebastian's quests (that i can recall). 

Also, I'm glad you enjoyed William's story.  I tried not to demonize anyone in that tale, (yes even Anders).  And yes, all those dialogues in chapters 2, 3 and 4 are taken word for word from the conversations from the game.  I only added one thing and had Hawke say the Chantry was holding mass and had Anders respond in a way to Justice to hold him back from blowing up a packed Chantry, and the one line "Anders doesn't need you." I got confused who said it from the snapshot I took and had it spoken by William, when instead it was Justice/Vengeance.  I can be forgiven for the mistake since that was the first time I'd ever rivaled him, and didn't have the dialogues memorized at that point.

That whole tale started off as a discussion with me and LadyD/Cadsuane about friendship, the rivalry system (as I perceived it through a contested friendship--and make no mistake, they had their differences but William cared about Anders).  I foresee William will take a long time to get over Anders' death as well, though it was not a story I wanted to tell.  I felt it ended at a logical point.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 26 septembre 2012 - 02:50 .

[Adrian68b]

"I'm curious, do you ever do the romance subplot (with anyone) in the game? "

In two occasions. Once with Merrill, once with Isabela. I am male, and it is really difficult for me to roleplay female PC's. I tried once in DA:O with a female human noble, in order to romance Alistair, but it was a disaster. I made it only through Redcliff siege, having a quite different dialogue with Teagan.
Also, the gay approach is beyond me, even in a RPG (I have no problem with the option, really happy for other players).
In DA:O I romanced both Morrigan and Leliana. Never in the same time (except my first play, by accident - hitting by mistake a wrong dialogue option).

It was nicely done by Bioware. Still, in both DA:O and DA2 romancing or just befriending a character was quite the same thing concerning any potential influence. And I find this quite disappointing. Maybe it's about separating in-game emotional and rational involvement? But friendship also means at least empathy.

But if you are asking about romantic development, I was disappointed. I read some nice comments about romancing Alistair (being better that any other romances in DA:O). And romantic development in DA2 was even worse, close to none. A true romance is radically different.
Fortunately for me, it is not my reason I am playing RPG. A good story/plot and interesting characters are paramount. IWD had (strictly my opinion) the best plot development from Bioware.

Did you played the romance options in the case of Anders/Sebastian/Fenris? I was always curious if their personality changes.

Modifié par Adrian68b, 26 septembre 2012 - 02:28 .

[sylvanaerie]

Adrian68b wrote...

"I'm curious, do you ever do the romance subplot (with anyone) in the game? "

In two occasions. Once with Merrill, once with Isabela. I am male, and it is really difficult for me to roleplay female PC's. I tried once in DA:O with a female human noble, in order to romance Alistair, but it was a disaster. I made it only through Redcliff siege, having a quite different dialogue with Teagan.
Also, the gay approach is beyond me, even in a RPG (I have no problem with the option, really happy for other players).
In DA:O I romanced both Morrigan and Leliana. Never in the same time (except my first play, by accident - hitting by mistake a wrong dialogue option).

It was nicely done by Bioware. Still, in both DA:O and DA2 romancing or just befriending a character was quite the same thing concerning any potential influence. And I find this quite disappointing. Maybe it's about separating in-game emotional and rational involvement? But friendship also means at least empathy.

But if you are asking about romantic development, I was disappointed. I read some nice comments about romancing Alistair (being better that any other romances in DA:O). And romantic development in DA2 was even worse, close to none. A true romance is radically different.
Fortunately for me, it is not my reason I am playing RPG. A good story/plot and interesting characters are paramount. IWD had (strictly my opinion) the best plot development from Bioware.

Did you played the romance options in the case of Anders/Sebastian/Fenris? I was always curious if their character changes.

I've done Fenris, he pretty much hates mages at the end (friend or rivaled) but bends in that position by the end in regards to the PC, telling Hawke, he doesn't want to live without her.  (kinda creepy now that I typed that, but *shrug* all the romantic interests in DA2 are batsh*t insane).  His dialogues differ a bit depending on friendship or rivalry, being angrier as a rival.  I RPed it in my head that Lily Hawke (my most pacifistic, diplo mage) was trying to get him to see his anger was hurting him more than those he hated.  And my snarky rogue Raphael Hawke (yes I rivalmanced him as a gay man) used humor to deflate his angrier moments trying to get him not to take things so damn personally.

Sebastian experiences no growth as a friend, he makes his proposal offer for a 'chaste' marriage and you can accept or decline.  It's sweet but...boring.  The fun part with him is flirting with him (because I like his voice) and like Alistair he gets so flustered.  The rivalmance left me cold, like it was more a business arrangement than a 'romance'.

I've never been able to romance Anders at all.  I find him physically and emotionally unappealing.  Fanatics make me nervous.  So I am unsure if he changes.  I tried once flirting with him in Act 1 and I never finished that Hawke, he freaked me out so badly.

I actually prefer the ladies in DA2 to the guy options, Isabela being my favorite, and have romanced them as male and female Hawkes.

And yes, the Alistair romance is very sweet, my favorite of all the DA romances so far.  I played IWD but found it pretty shallow as RPGs go.  I much prefered BG2 and the character interaction with all the companion NPCs.

Also, I've never read "The Way of Kings"?  Who is Kaladin and what was he like?  I'll have to keep my eyes open for the book.
NM wiki'ed it.  There are some parallels, though William isn't as prejudiced as the synopsis portrays Kaladin.  That anger issue is there though.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 26 septembre 2012 - 02:48 .

[Adrian68b]

"Fanatics make me nervous."

I just steer away from them in real life. I tried to be friendly with Anders, but I also found his reactions being bizarre. I would have done the same thing with Anders as I did with Sebastian (not playing); sadly it was not possible.
I had absolutely no problem befriending Fenris (really strange being so anti-mage; maybe because I play rogue).
About Sebastian... well, at least Anders was SOMETHING. After I finished the only play with him included, I wondered how it is possible to make a credible but "invisible" NPC. He was less socially aware than me at age 3. Thinking of this... Playing DA:A my PC always seemed to me more like a kindergarten teacher than a Warden Commander. Except of Justice and Nathaniel, the rest of the bunch were... they just didn't fought over toys.
Seriously, it seemed to me as if Alistair personally hand-picked them for companions.

"Isabela being my favorite"

The same in my case. The big surprise came in a play when romancing Merrill. I accidentally talked with Isabela in the tavern and suddenly found my PC in the middle of a yet unseen friendly dialogue about Merrill. Nothing similar was available from any other NPC.

About IWD: the story was bland, but the plot evolved nicely. I especially liked how it was possible to change dialogue options using newly found lore. Such a feature was sadly missing in DA2.

Modifié par Adrian68b, 26 septembre 2012 - 03:23 .

[sylvanaerie]

Adrian68b wrote...

"Fanatics make me nervous."

I just steer away from them in real life. I tried to be friendly with Anders, but I also found his reactions being bizarre. I would have done the same thing with Anders as I did with Sebastian (not playing); sadly it was not possible.
I had absolutely no problem befriending Fenris (really strange being so anti-mage; maybe because I play rogue).
About Sebastian... well, at least Anders was SOMETHING. After I finished the only play with him included, I wondered how it is possible to make a credible but "invisible" NPC. He was less socially aware than me at age 3. Thinking of this... Playing DA:A my PC always seemed to me more like a kindergarten teacher than a Warden Commander. Except of Justice and Nathaniel, the rest of the bunch were... they just didn't fought over toys.
Seriously, it seemed to me as if Alistair personally hand-picked them for companions.

"Isabela being my favorite"

The same in my case. The big surprise came in a play when romancing Merrill. I accidentally talked with Isabela in the tavern and suddenly found my PC in the middle of a yet unseen friendly dialogue about Merrill. Nothing similar was available from any other NPC.

Is that the "I'll kick your ass if you hurt her" convo?  Because yea, at that moment I really adored Issa.  The only two I like more than her are Varric and Aveline.  And yes, she can be remarkably selfish, but she experiences quite a bit of growth as you friend her (haven't been able to rival her), caring about others.  This is evident in her romance especially, as she pushes Hawke away, not because she's afraid she will be hurt, but because she's afraid of hurting Hawke.  Eventually Hawke breaks down these barriers, and reaches the woman inside.  I found her romance the deepest and most challenging of all of the DA2 ones.

Anders does something similar in Act 3 during "Justice" but this smacks of selfishness to me, like it doesn't matter what Hawke feels or thinks, he's going to do 'what he thinks is right', regardless.

[Adrian68b]

"Also, I've never read "The Way of Kings"? Who is Kaladin and what was he like? I'll have to keep my eyes open for the book."

I strongly think it is your kind of book. It's the most innovative fantasy novel I read at least in a decade. Placed in a world a bit similar but stranger than Arrakis. Inhabited by people with very strange traditions. A complex innovative magic system. A strange epic struggle involving some gods, and an evolving lore system. Kaladin is sort of the main character (sort of medic becaming soldier), a man who tries very hard to help others, and constantly failing. I really won't tell you more, in case of you became interested. It seems to be the first book of a trilogy, not yet written.

But if you like, I can write a short summary. But just one more bit: it's a world with violent storms (hundreds of mph) and retracting, moving plants. The magic is about some form of redirected gravity, and creating/changing matter. Also, morality is a very important part of the story.

"William isn't as prejudiced as the synopsis portrays Kaladin"

Not even remotely. It's kind of the darkest possible misery as a reward after an amazing feat. It's a very long book, but worth every minute spent reading it. That, of course if you like magical fantasy.

Modifié par Adrian68b, 26 septembre 2012 - 04:02 .

[Xilizhra]

His attitudes toward mages and the common man have shifted markedly. He lumps all mages in the category of 'good guy' and everyone else by dint of they can't work magic becomes 'the bad guy'. In the "Faith" quest when Leliana says that the Revolutionists will make everything 'dangerous' by their actions, Anders snidely replies 'dangerous for you'. Dumb ass, does he really believe mages live in a bubble and won't be affected by their actions? By now his anger has consumed him and his obsession is all encompassing. He is more Justice/Vengeance, a creature without compassion, than Anders. His banters are bitter and lack even the attempt at humor (however innappropriate) experienced in earlier acts.

Actually, he still gives a few shots at humor, like his Blackmarsh conversation with Varric. Though maybe that's only if you friend him. And I don't think that he is Justice, just that the two of them have become steadily closer.

In a scene prior to this, he's shown giving away his few possessions (including a pillow his mother made him, and the only thing he had left of her), showing he is aware he's probably going to die after doing this, (either at Meredith's hand or--I think he's hoping--by Hawke's) and that he is aware of what is happening. Perhaps he feels that is 'justice' for his actions, I don't know. He still lacks the ability to stop what is happening or cares enough to stop it. "There is no one I would not kill to see mages free". If Rivaled, at least you can almost talk him out of it, friended, he's just so exultant and pleased with himself, it's easy to see it's Justice (not Anders) calling the shots (at least to me).

He's never happy about blowing up the Chantry, and does consider it just for himself to be killed for it. He just sees it as necessary. He make take some enjoyment from his cause, but, well, why shouldn't he? It's the right one.

And, as you say, he acts alone to decide everything for every other person in Thedas, mage and mundane alike. His dialogue throughout the game smacks of he doesn't want to get taken back to the circle. Maybe they meant to show the paranoia that other mages besides Hawke feel, but if so, it was executed in such a way as to make him come across as selfish to me.

A choice that the mages, at least, went along with. It was the right call. The templars don't deserve to have their opinions taken into account. As for the rest of Thedas... well, that's their choice to serve or oppose the tyrannical fanatics' regime.

[Adrian68b]

"Is that the "I'll kick your ass if you hurt her" convo? Because yea, at that moment I really adored Issa. The only two I like more than her are Varric and Aveline. And yes, she can be remarkably selfish, but she experiences quite a bit of growth as you friend her (haven't been able to rival her), caring about others. This is evident in her romance especially, as she pushes Hawke away, not because she's afraid she will be hurt, but because she's afraid of hurting Hawke. Eventually Hawke breaks down these barriers, and reaches the woman inside. I found her romance the deepest and most challenging of all of the DA2 ones."

Exactly! That was the dialogue! And a huge surprise for my PC. Also, Isabela's romance was really the best in DA games so far (at least for a male PC).
About her selfishness: concerning the main plot I say yes, but it rather appeared as survival. Still, she could have hinted about the book and the qunari "mission". Also, she seemed fond of Merrill, even if she was the one romancing Hawke. Maybe also the most evolving character in DA2.

[sylvanaerie]

Adrian68b wrote...

"Is that the "I'll kick your ass if you hurt her" convo? Because yea, at that moment I really adored Issa. The only two I like more than her are Varric and Aveline. And yes, she can be remarkably selfish, but she experiences quite a bit of growth as you friend her (haven't been able to rival her), caring about others. This is evident in her romance especially, as she pushes Hawke away, not because she's afraid she will be hurt, but because she's afraid of hurting Hawke. Eventually Hawke breaks down these barriers, and reaches the woman inside. I found her romance the deepest and most challenging of all of the DA2 ones."

Exactly! That was the dialogue! And a huge surprise for my PC. Also, Isabela's romance was really the best in DA games so far (at least for a male PC).
About her selfishness: concerning the main plot I say yes, but it rather appeared as survival. Still, she could have hinted about the book and the qunari "mission". Also, she seemed fond of Merrill, even if she was the one romancing Hawke. Maybe also the most evolving character in DA2.

Well, she can be very self centered as well.  You know she hates slavery, but she also wants what'shisface's boat, the Antivan guy who's been after her, so she overlooks his activities (which you have documentation of) to blackmail him into getting the boat.  Sometimes I give it to her, sometimes I don't because *shrug* it all depends on what my Hawke's personality is like.  If they're more like a goody two shoes, they put a stop to him, if they are more nuetral, letting Isabela make the call, they go along with the blackmail.  Never been able to play out and out evil.

My Hawkes usually fall in the 'moderate' category.  As i say, fanatics make me nervous, I can't even play one in a video game.  The closest I can come is "angry" like William.  One of the reasons I just can't side with Meredith, but I can't approve of Anders actions in the game either.  Neither viewpoint is 'right'.  The real one I feel falls somewhere between the two, but most of what's seen is the extremes.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 26 septembre 2012 - 04:00 .

[Xilizhra]

My Hawkes usually fall in the 'moderate' category. As i say, fanatics make me nervous, I can't even play one in a video game. The closest I can come is "angry" like William. One of the reasons I just can't side with Meredith, but I can't approve of Anders actions in the game either. Neither viewpoint is 'right'. The real one I feel falls somewhere between the two, but most of what's seen is the extremes.

I don't think it's even possible to play a fanatic in DA2. Believe me, I'd know if one could, at least for the mage side, but even a fully pro-mage Hawke is always basically moderate and reasonable, opposing people like Tarohne in all cases. However, fanatics don't make me so nervous if they're on my side.