130 réponses à ce sujet

[sylvanaerie]

Xilizhra wrote...

My Hawkes usually fall in the 'moderate' category. As i say, fanatics make me nervous, I can't even play one in a video game. The closest I can come is "angry" like William. One of the reasons I just can't side with Meredith, but I can't approve of Anders actions in the game either. Neither viewpoint is 'right'. The real one I feel falls somewhere between the two, but most of what's seen is the extremes.

I don't think it's even possible to play a fanatic in DA2. Believe me, I'd know if one could, at least for the mage side, but even a fully pro-mage Hawke is always basically moderate and reasonable, opposing people like Tarohne in all cases. However, fanatics don't make me so nervous if they're on my side.

I've read posts from players on these threads that give me that same 'fanatic' nervous feeling, on both mage and templar sides of the issue.  Your posts make me nervous to be honest, this is why I don't wish to debate it with you. 

[Adrian68b]

"The closest I can come is "angry" like William."

The one from your fan-fiction? It doesn't seemed angry to me. More like a non-codling (pampering) Hawke, who isn't afraid to discuss grave problems instead of some sort of fake politeness (like "I'm really angry about what you did/planning to do, but I am too polite to mention it". Also an active, decided Hawke. Something impossible in DA2.

That passive attitude Hawke exhibits mostly after act1 was really my biggest issue with DA2. Not even trying to protect his sister? Not a single option to confront Anders/Isabela when they are acting very strangely (I know a bit of chemistry and it was obvious that at least the first ingredient urine - was linked with explosives)?
Second play I tried to make Hawke asume a leading role for nobles (act3 start) After 2 parts, the entire quest involving nobles disappeared.
No wonder at all you wrote a fiction about an active Hawke.

[Xilizhra]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

My Hawkes usually fall in the 'moderate' category. As i say, fanatics make me nervous, I can't even play one in a video game. The closest I can come is "angry" like William. One of the reasons I just can't side with Meredith, but I can't approve of Anders actions in the game either. Neither viewpoint is 'right'. The real one I feel falls somewhere between the two, but most of what's seen is the extremes.

I don't think it's even possible to play a fanatic in DA2. Believe me, I'd know if one could, at least for the mage side, but even a fully pro-mage Hawke is always basically moderate and reasonable, opposing people like Tarohne in all cases. However, fanatics don't make me so nervous if they're on my side.

I've read posts from players on these threads that give me that same 'fanatic' nervous feeling, on both mage and templar sides of the issue.  Your posts make me nervous to be honest, this is why I don't wish to debate it with you. 

Intriguing. Which component? About mages needing freedom? My... stern stance regarding the templars? My support of Merrill?

[sylvanaerie]

Xilizhra wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

My Hawkes usually fall in the 'moderate' category. As i say, fanatics make me nervous, I can't even play one in a video game. The closest I can come is "angry" like William. One of the reasons I just can't side with Meredith, but I can't approve of Anders actions in the game either. Neither viewpoint is 'right'. The real one I feel falls somewhere between the two, but most of what's seen is the extremes.

I don't think it's even possible to play a fanatic in DA2. Believe me, I'd know if one could, at least for the mage side, but even a fully pro-mage Hawke is always basically moderate and reasonable, opposing people like Tarohne in all cases. However, fanatics don't make me so nervous if they're on my side.

I've read posts from players on these threads that give me that same 'fanatic' nervous feeling, on both mage and templar sides of the issue.  Your posts make me nervous to be honest, this is why I don't wish to debate it with you. 

Intriguing. Which component? About mages needing freedom? My... stern stance regarding the templars? My support of Merrill?

All of it, you seem to go overboard in your zeal to defend your viewpoint, showing a very black and white viewpoint without any shades of grey.  Yes, some of the templars in the game are dicks, but not all templars are dicks.  Just as all mages aren't good.  *you point out Taronhe as an example, but she's rather extreme* 

While I can agree with some of what you say, (I have no love for the templar order either--but I at least recognize that Bioware tried to portray them as 'people with some shades of grey') I find a lot of it makes me nervous, and I just don't like debating something with someone so 'dedicated' in their beliefs.

[Adrian68b]

"However, fanatics don't make me so nervous if they're on my side."

I simply cannot stand fanatics of any kind. Not even in a RPG. Still, the idea of steering away from the classical plot of "destroy the Evil" and instead offering a social-religious conflict was a good one from Bioware. The possible endings are much more diverse, also the plot options (factions, morality, traditions). Something Bioware dabbled before (BG2), but not at this level.
But managing the story/plot/ending is increasingly difficult in such a case. A mixture of a social plot and classical ending doesn't worked too well in DA2.

[sylvanaerie]

Adrian68b wrote...

"The closest I can come is "angry" like William."

The one from your fan-fiction? It doesn't seemed angry to me. More like a non-codling (pampering) Hawke, who isn't afraid to discuss grave problems instead of some sort of fake politeness (like "I'm really angry about what you did/planning to do, but I am too polite to mention it". Also an active, decided Hawke. Something impossible in DA2.

That passive attitude Hawke exhibits mostly after act1 was really my biggest issue with DA2. Not even trying to protect his sister? Not a single option to confront Anders/Isabela when they are acting very strangely (I know a bit of chemistry and it was obvious that at least the first ingredient urine - was linked with explosives)?
Second play I tried to make Hawke asume a leading role for nobles (act3 start) After 2 parts, the entire quest involving nobles disappeared.
No wonder at all you wrote a fiction about an active Hawke.

Yea, I realize William seems a little more decisive than the game allows.  I hated that monumental 'reactivity' Hawke exhibits.  I realize it's a story issue, in that a certain point must be reached, but that doesn't mean I liked it.  So yea, I made a story where he seems a bit more 'hands on' with the problems in Kirkwall.  And the sister thing, yea William totally would have sliced and diced any templar coming after baby sister.  It's why I made my Hawke choice for the story a Mage.

I even embellished a tiny bit on his dialogues to convey a bit more of that, but I had to go into his head and add stuff in the form of the viewpoints I expressed outside the dialogue to show more of a personality than was able to be shown in the game.  

[Xilizhra]

All of it, you seem to go overboard in your zeal to defend your viewpoint, showing a very black and white viewpoint without any shades of grey. Yes, some of the templars in the game are dicks, but not all templars are dicks. Just as all mages aren't good. *you point out Taronhe as an example, but she's rather extreme*

Whether or not the templars are all dicks personally is irrelevant. I'm sure that not every Wehrmacht soldier was a dick personally either, but all of them had to surrender or die until they'd lost the war, and such is the case too with the templars. And yes, Tarohne is rather extreme; that's what makes her not good.

While I can agree with some of what you say, (I have no love for the templar order either--but I at least recognize that Bioware tried to portray them as 'people with some shades of grey') I find a lot of it makes me nervous, and I just don't like debating something with someone so 'dedicated' in their beliefs.

Everything that possesses varying opinions and/or personalities is gray. That's a given. It doesn't make the templars any better.

[sylvanaerie]

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...


[quote]All of it, you seem to go overboard in your zeal to defend your viewpoint, showing a very black and white viewpoint without any shades of grey. Yes, some of the templars in the game are dicks, but not all templars are dicks. Just as all mages aren't good. *you point out Taronhe as an example, but she's rather extreme* [/quote]
Whether or not the templars are all dicks personally is irrelevant. I'm sure that not every Wehrmacht soldier was a dick personally either, but all of them had to surrender or die until they'd lost the war, and such is the case too with the templars. And yes, Tarohne is rather extreme; that's what makes her not good.


[quote]While I can agree with some of what you say, (I have no love for the templar order either--but I at least recognize that Bioware tried to portray them as 'people with some shades of grey') I find a lot of it makes me nervous, and I just don't like debating something with someone so 'dedicated' in their beliefs.[/quote]
Everything that possesses varying opinions and/or personalities is gray. That's a given. It doesn't make the templars any better.[/quote]

Okay, this is exactly what I'm talking about.  In one breath you say everything has shades of grey then completely refute that in your next sentence.  You post your opinions as if they are emphatic truth, and they are just your opinions of what has happened.  I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying I see things differently. 

I really don't wish to debate this with you. You have your perceptions and I have mine, and unfortunately I don't see either of us meeting eye to eye on any of this. 

Let us just agree to disagree and leave it at that, please. Please!

[Adrian68b]

{I at least recognize that Bioware tried to portray them as 'people with some shades of grey'}

Bioware did more than that. For every faction, their characters ranged between fanatical, moderate and sympathetic. For instance, Gregoir at the end of Mage quest in DA:O as opposed to Cullen. Or from Asunder, Adrian opposed to Rhys and Evangeline to Lambert. Such a range offers not only plot options, but also playing options (ex. supporting tenplars in a reasonable quest or in an extreme one).
In the case of DA2 I always favored the mages side. I am able to play a moderate pragmatic templar like Gregoir in DA3 Inquisition, if a better option is not available. But I cannot roleplay any kind of fanatic, even mage (Anders, or Adrian from Asunder).

[Adrian68b]

" I hated that monumental 'reactivity' Hawke exhibits."

It was a striking contrast between the Hawke from act1 and Hawke of Acts 2-3. It seemed to me as if Hawke became contaminated by the qunari classic: "It was meant to be". Prologue and Act1 Hawke fights for his family, confronts his uncle, Carta assassins (in my case, because of Legacy). Act 2-3 Hawke hides in his mansion as any noble. At least he could have asked Cullen for some protection for Bethany.
Unfortunately a mage Hawke is not an option for me. DA2 is 99% combat, and anything else than a rogue Hawke is out of question.

[sylvanaerie]

I haven't read Asunder. Is it any good?

I have played all three, but my favorite class is the mage.  Though the whole 'ignore the fact that Hawke is a mage' thing kind of ...well, I feel Bioware dropped the ball there.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 26 septembre 2012 - 05:10 .

[Adrian68b]

"I haven't read Asunder. Is it any good?

I have played all three, but my favorite class is the mage. Though the whole 'ignore the fact that Hawke is a mage' thing kind of ...well, I feel Bioware dropped the ball there."

My second reason to not play a mage. At least in DA:O people and especially templars do react in case of a mage GW.

Asunder is happening in Orlais, after DA2, and concerns mages (the circle from Val Royaux), seekers, the Divine, Leliana and a strange entity. The plot is so-so, but is related to DA3, I believe.

But if your free time is scarce, I recommend The Way of Kings first. Especially if you like stories about highly moral characters, battles, betrayal and people who have to fight through live and never giving up. And I forgot: spirits, related with any kind of magic.

Also, if you like good fiction books, here is a very short list of some of my all time favorites:

Italo Calvino - Invisible Cities (dialogues between Marco Polo and Kublai Khan about cities; in fact a collection of 100 imaginary places). I never read something even close in my all life. I got second degree sunburn reading it first time.

Stanislaw Lem - The Cyberiad (a collection of fairy tales from an universe dominated by robots; in fact disguised profound social essays).

Samuel Butler - Erewon/Erewon Revisited (two books from a XIX century British author about a reversed society - ex. diseases considered to be crime and any crime a disease).

Modifié par Adrian68b, 26 septembre 2012 - 05:48 .

[Adrian68b]

Just a small example from Invisible Cities:

"CITIES & EYES 1 The ancients built Valdrada on the shores of a lake, with houses all verandas one above the other, and high streets whose railed parapets look out over the water. Thus the traveller, arriving, sees two cities: one erect above the lake, and the other reflected, upside-down. Nothing exists or happens in the one Valdrada that the other Valdrada does not repeat, because the city was so constructed that its every point would be reflected in its mirror, and the Valdrada down in the water contains not only all the flutings and juttings of the facades that rise above the lake, but also the rooms’ interiors with ceilings and floors, the perspective of the halls, the mirrors of the wardrobes. Valdrada’s inhabitants know that each of their actions is, at once, that action and its mirror-image, which possesses the special dignity of images, and this awareness prevents them from forgetfulness. Even when lovers twist their naked bodies, skin against skin, seeking the position that will give one the most pleasure in the other, even when murderers plunge the knife into the black veins of the neck and more clotted blood pours out the more they press the blade that slips between the tendons, it is not so much their copulating or murdering that matters as the copulating or murdering of the images, limpid and cold in the mirror.
At times the mirror increases a thing’s value, at times denies it. Not everything that seems valuable above the mirror maintains its force when mirrored. The twin cities are not equal, because nothing that exists or happens in Valdrada is symmetrical: every face and gesture is answered, from the mirror, by a face and gesture inverted, point by point. The two Valdradas live for each other, their eyes interlocked; but there is no love between them."

Modifié par Adrian68b, 26 septembre 2012 - 05:53 .

[Adrian68b]

One of my favorite:

"THIN CITIES 4 The city of Sophronia is made up of two half cities. In one there is the great roller-coaster with its steep humps, the carousel with its chain spokes, the Ferris wheel of spinning cages, the death-ride with crouching motor-cyclists, the big top with the clump of trapezes hanging in the middle. The other half-city is of stone and marble and cement, with the bank, the factories, the palaces, the slaughterhouse, the school, and all the rest. One of the half-cities is permanent, the other is temporary, and when the period if its sojourn is over, they uproot it, dismantle it, and take it off, transplanting it to the vacant lots of another half-city. And so every year the day comes when the workmen remove the marble pediments, lower the stone walls, the cement pylons, take down the Ministry, the monument, the docks, the petroleum refinery, the hospital, load them on trailers, to follow from stand to stand their annual itinerary. Here remains the half-Sophronia of the shooting-galleries and the carousels, the shout suspended from the cart of the headlong roller-coaster, and it begins to count the months, and days it must wait before the caravan returns and a complete life can begin again."

[coldwetn0se]

@Sylvan - Just a quick interjection on the Demon in the Deep Roads. Yes, you can most definately "front" on the demon in certain circumstances. heh! There are a few requirements, and I have been lucky to have had it available for me once. Twas quite fun!

[LobselVith8]

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't think it's even possible to play a fanatic in DA2. Believe me, I'd know if one could, at least for the mage side, but even a fully pro-mage Hawke is always basically moderate and reasonable, opposing people like Tarohne in all cases. However, fanatics don't make me so nervous if they're on my side.

I don't think it's a matter of being reasonable and moderate, but rather railroading Hawke down specific paths. Hawke can voice to Anders (in an aggressive tone) that they will kill all the templars (in Act II) and that he wants to topple the templars (in Act III), but the Plot renders Hawke passive. There are clear inconsistencies between these dialogue moments, and how Hawke behaves in "Best Served Cold."

[Adrian68b]

"@Sylvan - Just a quick interjection on the Demon in the Deep Roads. Yes, you can most definately "front" on the demon in certain circumstances. heh! There are a few requirements, and I have been lucky to have had it available for me once. Twas quite fun! "

What exactly is different in-game if you accept deal/intimidate the demon? There is no final battle with the Ancient Rock Wraith?

[sylvanaerie]

Adrian68b wrote...

"@Sylvan - Just a quick interjection on the Demon in the Deep Roads. Yes, you can most definately "front" on the demon in certain circumstances. heh! There are a few requirements, and I have been lucky to have had it available for me once. Twas quite fun! :D"

What exactly is different in-game if you accept deal/intimidate the demon? There is no final battle with the Ancient Rock Wraith?

I am unsure of the intimidation route, but there is a battle with the Rock Wraith (that's the task he sets Hawke to do in exchange for information on the passage out).  It all plays out just as if you kill the demon instead of taking his offer except after you killed the rock wraith, you get another cutscene with the Hunger demon where you can decide once and for all to kill him or continue on your way, leaving the demon in the Deep Roads.

Invisible cities sounds interesting.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 26 septembre 2012 - 07:15 .

[coldwetn0se]

I don't want to spoil what the "star" option is with the demon, but a few conditions need to be met for Hawke to get that option. Aggro Hawke, and taking (at least I believe), other intimidate/star/fight options during Act 1. The reason I believe you have to take a certain number of those, is because I have ran an Aggro Hawke before, who never really took (or at least not more than one) the star/intimidate/fight options in Act 1. So by the time I got to the DR Demon, only the two dialogue choices, and the "fight" option came up; not the "star" option.

As for how it plays out, after said action occurs, not much changes. Still, it is a fun option to get. Am going to try it again on my next run.

(sheesh...I hope this made sense. Reads a bit messy. Sorry for that.)

[sylvanaerie]

coldwetn0se wrote...

I don't want to spoil what the "star" option is with the demon, but a few conditions need to be met for Hawke to get that option. Aggro Hawke, and taking (at least I believe), other intimidate/star/fight options during Act 1. The reason I believe you have to take a certain number of those, is because I have ran an Aggro Hawke before, who never really took (or at least not more than one) the star/intimidate/fight options in Act 1. So by the time I got to the DR Demon, only the two dialogue choices, and the "fight" option came up; not the "star" option.

As for how it plays out, after said action occurs, not much changes. Still, it is a fun option to get. Am going to try it again on my next run.

(sheesh...I hope this made sense. Reads a bit messy. Sorry for that.)

No, I understand perfectly!  That will work, my Aggressive Hawke usually intimidates poeple like the slaver in darktown in Feynriel's quest and that port authority bozo in Issa's companion quest.  I'll just take any that pop up in Act 1 just to be sure.  Maybe I should run Gawain through.  He's my only "complete ass" character and he's SO easy on the eyes.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 26 septembre 2012 - 08:00 .

[coldwetn0se]

Yes he is!.....mmmmmm, Gawain. Question, is Gawain a rogue or warrior? What is your current Aggro Hawke's class? The one reason I ask, is that it is possible it may be one of the few times in the game where class (plus those other things I mentioned) MIGHT have an effect on this. The one and only time I have gotten the option in question, was with my Aggro 2hd Warrior Hawke, who took nearly all fight options and star options, when available (star options may be the trigger...not sure). When I played my Aggro Mage Hawke, (who admittedly was still a "talker" first kind of a guy, but I am fairly certain I took at least one star option and probably one fight option), I didn't get the star choice with the demon.

[sylvanaerie]

coldwetn0se wrote...

Yes he is!.....mmmmmm, Gawain. Question, is Gawain a rogue or warrior? What is your current Aggro Hawke's class? The one reason I ask, is that it is possible it may be one of the few times in the game where class (plus those other things I mentioned) MIGHT have an effect on this. The one and only time I have gotten the option in question, was with my Aggro 2hd Warrior Hawke, who took nearly all fight options and star options, when available (star options may be the trigger...not sure). When I played my Aggro Mage Hawke, (who admittedly was still a "talker" first kind of a guy, but I am fairly certain I took at least one star option and probably one fight option), I didn't get the star choice with the demon.

Gawain is an S&S warrior type, and yea he'd choose almost all Star/Fight options (with a trollish kind of humor).  William still felt there was a way to talk out of a situation, but I played him as someone who would do the hard stuff, make the hard choices when his friends were counting on him.

And thanks, I think he's pretty yummy too  I think he was also a "Drunkistair" import.  Might be interesting to play him on my King Cousland import.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 26 septembre 2012 - 08:34 .

[Adrian68b]

"I am unsure of the intimidation route, but there is a battle with the Rock Wraith (that's the task he sets Hawke to do in exchange for information on the passage out). It all plays out just as if you kill the demon instead of taking his offer except after you killed the rock wraith, you get another cutscene with the Hunger demon where you can decide once and for all to kill him or continue on your way, leaving the demon in the Deep Roads."

So the whole business with the demon is just about to get past him?! I figured that it implies avoiding the Rock Wrath showdown. But battling the demon was a joke!

"No, I understand perfectly! That will work, my Aggressive Hawke usually intimidates poeple like the slaver in darktown in Feynriel's quest and that port authority bozo in Issa's companion quest."

I was never able to intimidate anybody in DA2. Well, except that merchant from the Gallows in Prologue, when working for the smuggler. I just did that in my first play, not even trying Meeran.
Since then I never got another sucessful intimidation. I always play a diplomatic rogue Hawke. I tried several times with the harbormaster, with/without Aveline. Never worked.

"Invisible cities sounds interesting."

Much more. It's one of a kind. Also I have some rather strange stories about this book. Suffice to say that I already bought more the 10 copies, gifted most of them to my friends. Once I bought one without even looking at the cover. The cleric saw the whole thing and considered me crazy.

[sylvanaerie]

"Since then I never got another sucessful intimidation. I always play a diplomatic rogue Hawke."

This is why. You only get 'intimidate' options on an aggressive Hawke. Diplomatic gets...I forget what it's called, but you get the ability to talk angry people out of their path (like turning Gascard Dupuis to your side, or convincing Danyla's daughter not to kill the former werewolf). Sarcastic gets "charming" where you deflect confrontation with humor. Aggressive gets...well like that scene with Aveline handling the merchant, only Hawke does it. Damn I don't have any snapshots, sorry. usually after I finish a run I delete them. The only pics I have aren't aggressive Hawkes.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 26 septembre 2012 - 09:30 .

[Adrian68b]

"This is why. You only get 'intimidate' options on an aggressive Hawke. Diplomatic gets...I forget what it's called, but you get the ability to talk angry people out of their path (like turning Gascard Dupuis to your side, or convincing Danyla's daughter not to kill the former werewolf). Sarcastic gets "charming" where you deflect confrontation with humor. Aggressive gets...well like that scene with Aveline handling the merchant, only Hawke does it. Damn I don't have any snapshots, sorry. usually after I finish a run I delete them. The only pics I have aren't aggressive Hawkes."

Oh. So that's the problem. Well, not a big deal for me. I like too much the diplomatic Hawke. I only used the other two option around the Birthright quest. I loved the scenes with aggressive/sarcastic Hawke and a cornered Gamlen.

Not to mention that my rogue Hawke is played always as a pragmatic, down-to-earth character, always trying the best for family/friends.

Modifié par Adrian68b, 26 septembre 2012 - 09:48 .