206 réponses à ce sujet

[Matthew Moore]

siodine wrote...

Joel171 wrote...

I don't know what to tell you, then, man. I understand your concerns on the matter, but I seriously doubt it will change. The amount of apathy on the subject is more than the concern one way or the other. I respect that you dislike the idea, and I'm not trying to keep you from voicing your opinion in any way, shape, or form. That's your right. I'm just giving mine, as well.

No I totally hear you. I just think Its less of a value and more of a pain. The DVD extras and music singles are al good points as well, but in this case I just see this all getting out of hand in the industry.

This is the first generation of games to feature serious post release content that isnt simply a map pack.  Sure there are some rough edges, just as Bethesda released Horse Armor and everyone whined about that, they got it right when they released Shivering Isles and Knights of the 9.  It takes time and I expect the pricing structure for different pieces of content to vary based on magnitude and content.

[MrGOH]

siodine wrote...

MrGOH wrote...

The cost:benefit ratio is only a problem if people don't buy it; if it's profitable, then your issue is with what others are willing to pay. If it's a real problem, folks won't pay. This is admittedly simplistic - the best course of action is to buy DA:O but not the DLC - send the signal that you like big, single transaction games and not subsequent microtransactions. 

Uhg, here is where all my griping breaks down. Everything Bioware has ever done has been worth every penny and I probably will pay. If a developer isnt worth it, I wont. You all probably win. Glad at least I got owned and converted by fellow bioware fans.

Touche

This wasn't a fight; it was a discussion.  Everybody won.

I think your concern is generally valid - there is a trend towards making content-poor games and using microtransactions to fill them out (Rock Band, Guitar Hero, Free to play MMO's) and I will be right there with you manning the barricades if it comes to that with every game, or even games from developers Ilove. But Bioware seems to only be adding value with their DLC offerings so far. I hope they'll follow in Bethesda's and Rockstar's footsteps - the DLC to GTA IV and Fallout 3 are all added value to already massive games. Hell, I liked that I could skip the Fallout DLC that I wasn't interested in rather than buying it all for more money as an expansion.

[GhoXen]

Generally it's my thumb down rule to never whine about something that costs less than a good pizza and at the same time lasts for longer than the time I need to relocate the said good pizza into my stomach.

[siodine]

Matthew Moore wrote...


This is the first generation of games to feature serious post release content that isnt simply a map pack.  Sure there are some rough edges, just as Bethesda released Horse Armor and everyone whined about that, they got it right when they released Shivering Isles and Knights of the 9.  It takes time and I expect the pricing structure for different pieces of content to vary based on magnitude and content.

See and I was thinking about that. I paid for some of the DLC for Oblivion and when my computer crashed, I lost those DLC. Their website didnt keep track of transactions based on account and they arent on the disk. Does anyone know if Bioware is going to have some sort of system to save my purchases for future download?

[siodine]

GhoXen wrote...

Generally it's my thumb down rule to never whine about something that costs less than a good pizza and at the same time lasts for longer than the time I need to relocate the said good pizza into my stomach.

Lawls!

[MrGOH]

siodine wrote...

Matthew Moore wrote...


This is the first generation of games to feature serious post release content that isnt simply a map pack.  Sure there are some rough edges, just as Bethesda released Horse Armor and everyone whined about that, they got it right when they released Shivering Isles and Knights of the 9.  It takes time and I expect the pricing structure for different pieces of content to vary based on magnitude and content.

See and I was thinking about that. I paid for some of the DLC for Oblivion and when my computer crashed, I lost those DLC. Their website didnt keep track of transactions based on account and they arent on the disk. Does anyone know if Bioware is going to have some sort of system to save my purchases for future download?

Yup. It will be tied to your account - either your PSN/Live profile or your EA account for endless downloading.

[Staylost]

siodine wrote...

MrGOH wrote...

The cost:benefit ratio is only a problem if people don't buy it; if it's profitable, then your issue is with what others are willing to pay. If it's a real problem, folks won't pay. This is admittedly simplistic - the best course of action is to buy DA:O but not the DLC - send the signal that you like big, single transaction games and not subsequent microtransactions. 

Uhg, here is where all my griping breaks down. Everything Bioware has ever done has been worth every penny and I probably will pay. If a developer isnt worth it, I wont. You all probably win. Glad at least I got owned and converted by fellow bioware fans.

Touche

Pretty sure other companies have chopped content to release it in microtransactions, so it is understandable why someone would be concerned. It is, like you've seen, the explanation of why that makes all the difference.

[On_Slaught]

GhoXen wrote...

EA

Even EA has the power to bring down a powerhouse like Bioware.

I'm fine with the DLC personally, and wil lbuy it, but I can see why many people and magazines/reviews find it very sketchy to release DLC along-side a games release. Just bad planning on Biowares part and a PR nightmare.

[vyvexthorne]

The op does have one point... Releasing DLC at the same time as a game makes people "feel" ripped off.. whether or not they actually are is another thing entirely. When someone feels like they are getting the shaft they are more likely to try to rebel from it in some way.. With computer games the most obvious and easiest form of rebelling from the industry is pirating the product. The day of release (or probably before release somehow) these DLC things will most likely be out there floating around free in the inner belly of the internet because someone "felt' ripped off, bought the item and then uploaded it to get their minuscule sense of "stickin' it 2 de man" Whether releasing pay for DLC content on release day is a good thing or not game makers have to somehow realize that their just adding logs to the fire they claim they are trying to put out.

[LemuresXL]

DLC seems to be such a double edged sword... With every game, people love it and hate it. DLC simply put is a way for companies to add a little bit to the game for a somewhat small amount of money. Of course when it add's up, the content of say 6 DLC's pales to an Expansion packs content worth yet the DLC will cost you more. That's me beef with DLC... It's a rip off. Flat out. A rip off.

I love DLC in that you get updates inbetween waiting for an ex-pac... if one even comes out. Don't see that so much anymore, companies seem to have gone that route of, were just gonna rip you off with DLC.

It's just the way it is now. I'd love to see DLC that is decently priced. Look at games on the I Phone... many of them from .99 to $5.00 with a lot of work. Whole games. DLC which is ussaly I think maybe an hours worth of gameplay will cost you around $7.00.

An MMO charges you about $15.00 a month for DLC, servers, customers service... god knows what else. DLC is in a way... the biggest scam that ever happened to gamers. Like Global Warming to ignorant people.

Modifié par LemuresXL, 29 octobre 2009 - 06:53 .

[vyvexthorne]

LemuresXL wrote...

DLC seems to be such a double edged sword... With every game, people love it and hate it. DLC simply put is a way for companies to add a little bit to the game for a somewhat small amount of money. Of course when it add's up, the content of say 6 DLC's pales to an Expansion packs content worth yet the DLC will cost you more. That's me beef with DLC... It's a rip off. Flat out. A rip off.

I love DLC in that you get updates inbetween waiting for an ex-pac... if one even comes out. Don't see that so much anymore, companies seem to have gone that route of, were just gonna rip you off with DLC.

It's just the way it is now. I'd love to see DLC that is decently priced. Look at games on the I Phone... many of them from .99 to $5.00 with a lot of work. Whole games. DLC which is ussaly I think maybe an hours worth of gameplay will cost you around $7.00.

An MMO charges you about $15.00 a month for DLC, servers, customers service... god knows what else. DLC is in a way... the biggest scam that ever happened to gamers. Like Global Warming to ignorant people.

Rockstar seems to be the only gaming company that has ever put out quality DLC..  Lost and the Damned and Ballad of Gay Tony are both 20 bucks.. but both are basically complete games having more gameplay hours than full $60 dollar games like Batman, Ghostbusters or Mirrors Edge.   EA's Sims 3 on the other hand expects you to pay that much for sets of furniture? 

[LemuresXL]

vyvexthorne wrote...

Rockstar seems to be the only gaming company that has ever put out quality DLC..  Lost and the Damned and Ballad of Gay Tony are both 20 bucks.. but both are basically complete games having more gameplay hours than full $60 dollar games like Batman, Ghostbusters or Mirrors Edge.   EA's Sims 3 on the other hand expects you to pay that much for sets of furniture? 

haha... It's like the famous Horse Armor DLC that Bethesda did.  I had heard that Rock Stars DLC was more like an expansion pack.  That's great.  Hopefully companies can be led back in that direction.

[siodine]

LemuresXL wrote...

DLC seems to be such a double edged sword... With every game, people love it and hate it. DLC simply put is a way for companies to add a little bit to the game for a somewhat small amount of money. Of course when it add's up, the content of say 6 DLC's pales to an Expansion packs content worth yet the DLC will cost you more. That's me beef with DLC... It's a rip off. Flat out. A rip off.

I love DLC in that you get updates inbetween waiting for an ex-pac... if one even comes out. Don't see that so much anymore, companies seem to have gone that route of, were just gonna rip you off with DLC.

It's just the way it is now. I'd love to see DLC that is decently priced. Look at games on the I Phone... many of them from .99 to $5.00 with a lot of work. Whole games. DLC which is ussaly I think maybe an hours worth of gameplay will cost you around $7.00.

An MMO charges you about $15.00 a month for DLC, servers, customers service... god knows what else. DLC is in a way... the biggest scam that ever happened to gamers. Like Global Warming to ignorant people.

That is one huge issue. The values just dont seem right. Take Fallout 3 for an example because they had both hit and miss DLC.

Orginal game: $60=30+ hours of gameplay. Physical Copy.

DLC:$10=5 hours of gameplay, largely the same mechanics. No physical copy.

Now in this particular case some of the DLC was worthy of the game it adds on to, some were not, but all were overly priced in what you recieve. It used to be that expansions would have a greater role, such as Morrowwind. In that case you got

Expansion:$20=10-20 hours of gameplay. Largely the same mechanics. Physical Copy

Expansions were usually of higher quality and more often the same production team (A-team). of course now we also see the GOTY edition.

 GOTY Edition:$60=30+5+5+5+5+5 hours gameplay. Physical copy. Lack of "cohesive" narrative shared among DLC content.

So we can either bring back the Xpansion pack or wait a year to get a great deal. I think overall DLC lacks the quality of expansions because I believe a single prolonged narrative adds to the games "feel" more than "Here is this DLC, this DLC and this DLC. Look at all that new game!"

Modifié par siodine, 29 octobre 2009 - 07:38 .

[MrGOH]

siodine wrote...

LemuresXL wrote...

DLC seems to be such a double edged sword... With every game, people love it and hate it. DLC simply put is a way for companies to add a little bit to the game for a somewhat small amount of money. Of course when it add's up, the content of say 6 DLC's pales to an Expansion packs content worth yet the DLC will cost you more. That's me beef with DLC... It's a rip off. Flat out. A rip off.

I love DLC in that you get updates inbetween waiting for an ex-pac... if one even comes out. Don't see that so much anymore, companies seem to have gone that route of, were just gonna rip you off with DLC.

It's just the way it is now. I'd love to see DLC that is decently priced. Look at games on the I Phone... many of them from .99 to $5.00 with a lot of work. Whole games. DLC which is ussaly I think maybe an hours worth of gameplay will cost you around $7.00.

An MMO charges you about $15.00 a month for DLC, servers, customers service... god knows what else. DLC is in a way... the biggest scam that ever happened to gamers. Like Global Warming to ignorant people.

That is one huge issue. The values just dont seem right. Take Fallout 3 for an example because they had both hit and miss DLC

Orginal game: $60=30+ hours of gameplay. Physical Copy.
DLC:$10=5 hours of gameplay, largely the same mechanics. No physical copy.

Now in this particular case some of the DLC was worthy of the game it adds on to, some were not, but all were overly priced in what you recieve. It used to be that expansions would have a greater role, such as Morrowwind. In that case you got
Expansion:$20=10-20 hours of gameplay. Largely the same mechanics. Physical Copy
It was usually of higher quality and often the same production team (A-team). of course now we also see the GOTY Edition:$60=30+5+5+5+5+5 hours gameplay. Physical copy. Lack of "cohesive" narrative shared among DLC content.

So we can either bring back the Xpansion pack or wait a year to get a great deal. I think overall DLC lacks the quality of expansions because I believe a single prolonged narrative adds to the games "feel" More than "Here is this DLC, this DLC and this DLC. Look at all that new game!"

The weakness of expansions is that they may be built around an idea you don't like, or have parts you don't like. I remember being less than impressed with Baldur's Gate's and Icewind Dale's expansions; if I could have just bought, say, Durlag's Tower for $7, I would have skipped the other stuff, especially that lame wizard's maze. n the other hand, an expansion to Fallout 3 that was longer and more polished than the Broken Steel DLC would have gotten me to pay $20 or even $30 if done right.

It's just a tradeoff - expansions and DLC have different strengths. I do think the trend will be to release full expansions as DLC because distribution is much cheaper. I think we'll see more stuff like what Rockstar is doing - meaty DLC's that are basically expansion packs released for download first and, if successful, compiled on physical media and sold in stores. 

Personally,  I like Throne of Bhaal style expansions (although that particular expansion wasn't nearly as well done as the main game, BG2) that extend the story after the game's end. I'm not sure if that will be possible with DA:O.

[siodine]

Yeah the downfalls can effect both mediums I suppose. Heart of Winter was so short and uninspiring that they released a free add on to it to make up for it. Broken Steel stood out among DLC as a good value, largely as you point out, because it continues the story right where the game left off. I like the Half-Life episodes for the same reason, and you were given the option to purchase individual elements. But most DLC isnt treated with such respect and attention. Its new costumes or a room that spawns endless enemies!(By far the laziest approach yet)Rockstar may have hit the nail on the head with its approach. I will admit I have not played them but I to give DLC more production value and make it worthy of TV spot is a step in the right direction.

Modifié par siodine, 29 octobre 2009 - 07:53 .

[MrGOH]

siodine wrote...

Yeah the downfalls can effect both mediums I suppose. Heart of Winter was so short and uninspiring that they released a free add on to it to make up for it. Broken Steel stood out among DLC as a good value, largely as you point out, because it continues the story right where the game left off. I like the Half-Life episodes for the same reason. Rockstar may have hit the nail on the head with its approach. I will admit I have not played them but I to give DLC more production value and make it worthy of TV spot is a step in the right direction.

 

I have my issues with Broken Steel - it felt very slapdash by the end and a lot of folks bought it because it fixed the terrible ending to he main game. The GTA IV DLC so far has been absolutely fantastic; if you like GTA IV, I highly suggest it.

Edit: It seems so far that Bioware deserves the benefit of the doubt on this, and even if it releases a bunch of items or faces or such as DLC, I'll be fine - I simply won't buy that sort of stuff.

Modifié par MrGOH, 29 octobre 2009 - 07:54 .

[Ekardt]

GhoXen wrote...

Generally it's my thumb down rule to never whine about something that costs less than a good pizza and at the same time lasts for longer than the time I need to relocate the said good pizza into my stomach.

I do something similar, I compare it to movies. 7-10 dollars for 2-3 hours of entertainment for any movie in theatres. I use a dollar per hour of entertainment system. If I can get at least 1 hour per 2 dollars from my games and DLC im satisfied.

[Boeresmurf]

indeed, even with paying for DLC. gaming is the cheapest money/ per hour. entertainment u get.

[Schuback]

True... well they're just like you and me, just trying to make a living!!

[LdyShayna]

siodine wrote...

Does anyone know if Bioware is going to have some sort of system to save my purchases for future download?

They have confirmed that all of your DLC is registered with your social account here.  As long as this social account exists, they said, you will be able to redownload your free or purchased DLC whenever you need to.  I can give you the links to the discussions on the old forums, if needed.

[the_one_54321]

siodine wrote...

I have been a Bioware fan since I started playing video games. Back before I eeven payed attention to who developed a game, I played through MDK in my first all nighter to beat a game. I've loved every game since, especially Baldurs Gate 2. I played that game for as long as most people play MMORPG. You could say I wore the tires out on it. They make exceptional games and despite spending less and less time gaming, I continue to buy every game they pump out, sometimes on multiple systems eventually. So know I am coming from a place of love. I have been looking forward to Dragon Age for what seems like forever. I still am. But...

Coming out with a game and not including all the ready content in the box is disrepectful to fans. Bioware has got to get paid, and they deserve to, I recognize this.  I recognize the gaming industry has changed and long development times on giant games wont pay the bills. There will never again be a BG2:SOA. But these two DLC packs being avaliable at release yet not being included in the game is a line that should not be crossed.

If I buy a game, give me the whole thing. If the content could be created during intial development, put it in. 50-60 dollars is to much money to pay for an incomplete game. I dont know the prices on the DLC but I am willing to bet that it will push the cost of the game somewhere between 60-70 dollars. This is unacceptable!
Now I know the game by itself will be a game worth the money, and not lacking in any way. But this content is ready! Sure they could just hold it a month and not talk about it and then I would be none the wiser and just happy for more of a game I probably will have already beaten twice, but be it in a month or now, it just seems...dishonest....exploitive of current gaming trends. I am a huge fan and I will always support them, but for the first time ever I am really disappointed with Bioware. I would like to blame it on the whole EA thing, but I know its just a sign of the times. Talk about a disappointing first step into what I am sure will become a cash cow of practices in the gaming industry. Worst of all my first bitter taste of what is to come is delievered by my favorite developer, the one that has recieved more of my money already than any other group of fantastic gaming profesionals.

Please Bioware, explain it to me.

i agree 100%. this made me sad, and it made me loose some respect for bioware. this is not what i want gaming to be. and this is pushing me more towards developers like CDProjekt, and their approach to releasing games like The Witcher, even though i am certain i will like DA:O more than i liked The Witcher.

you will see no DLC purchased by this consumer, and you will also see this consumer complain about it every time it comes up in the forums.

LdyShayna wrote...

They have confirmed that all of your
DLC is registered with your social account here.  As long as this social account exists, they said, you will be able to redownload your free or purchased DLC whenever you need to.  I can give you the links to the discussions on the old forums, if needed.

and what happens if bioware get's disolved by EA and it's content is no longer supported? sure, that's far fetched now, but no one can say what might happen in the future.

there is no such thing as an adequate substitute for a physical copy that will always work.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 29 octobre 2009 - 04:18 .

[Varenus Luckmann]

GhoXen wrote...
EA

This.

[Varenus Luckmann]

LemuresXL wrote...
haha... It's like the famous Horse Armor DLC that Bethesda did.  I had heard that Rock Stars DLC was more like an expansion pack.  That's great.  Hopefully companies can be led back in that direction.

Haha, I was there when it went down. All over the forum, there were torrents and rage. Great piracy raids, huge amounts of whine. They started mass-banning people after a while and then they locked down the entire forum to deal with the backlog of people that needed to get banned and removing threads in an attempt to restore order.

It's sad to see that it's only a couple of years ago and already the gaming community have accepted it as something completely normal. DLC is a part of our lives now. Like surveillance, schoolyard rape and straight-to-cerebellum commercials.

Edit: Sorry for the double-post.

Modifié par Varenus Luckmann, 29 octobre 2009 - 04:22 .

[Taleroth]

siodine wrote...

If I buy a game, give me the whole thing. If the content could be created during intial development, put it in.

Here's your problem.  "Initial development" is not the period between start of development and release.  There's an order of months after development ceases before the game is released.  The PC version has been in varying nearly complete states SINCE MARCH.  And was actually touted as complete back then with only adjustments made.

DLC doesn't have to go through the same wait that retail products do.  They get turned around faster.  It's very simple to finish a game, then work on DLC, and have that DLC finished by the time retail ships.

[the_one_54321]

Taleroth wrote...
DLC doesn't have to go through the same wait that retail products do.  They get turned around faster.  It's very simple to finish a game, then work on DLC, and have that DLC finished by the time retail ships.

if you really research this, it becomes clear that Bioware was fully capable of including this content with release. they just chose not to.