206 réponses à ce sujet

[FlintlockJazz]

It's been reported here, I'll look it up. One of the developers even came on the thread about it and confirmed it as well.

[JackDresden]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

JackDresden wrote...

I'm a supporter of DLC in general and don't really mind about release day DLC so long as the game is good value.

What I object to and the reason I will not be buying Wardens keep or any future DLC released in the concept that the main game will contain NPCs who I can engage in conversation and will give the impression A DLC quest is part of the game I already bought, up until the point I agree to the quest then tell me I need to download and pay for it if I want to actually do it.

That for me is dishonest (a sales pitch disguised as part of my game), makes the game incomplete because it partially puts the DLC in the main game e.g. the quest giver & will then break my immersion to do a financial transaction with EA.

I really am truly shocked a company like Bioware has done this even if they are in a publication deal with EA.

I agree 100% with this.  Makes me wonder if, when patching the game in the future they will add more ingame 'merchants' like this as well.  I do not like having it forced on me, it's like having a shop attendant come up to you after you have left the store and gone home to sell me what looks like a missing piece to the product he sold me earlier.

They haven't said for sure if they will patch more sellers in to sell future DLC, I assume they will if DLC is selling and people don't object strongly enough.

[Taltherion]

But they HAVE also said that if they keep getting negative feedback they WILL think about other ways (for future DLC). So ... if we complain nicely ...

[JackDresden]

Tyler_Aus wrote...

Just FMI, where, and how do you know this? (Please don't say cause some website reported it)

No I don't fall for inter web rumour I've seen it confirmed dy devs on the old bioware dragon age forum.

[the_one_54321]

Taltherion wrote...

But they HAVE also said that if they keep getting negative feedback they WILL think about other ways (for future DLC). So ... if we complain nicely ...

this is what i've been trying to do precisely because of this....

with mixed results as you can see.

[Taltherion]

the_one ... it was more my impression that you were complaining about DLC in general and less about the way it was implemented, but maybe I got the wrong impression ...

[JackDresden]

I hope they do get enough negative feed-back and lost DLC sales on this to reconsider.



What David actually said is that is their was enough very polite negative feed back once the game was out the people in the department concerned might consider changing the way they implemented in game DLC selling but where very unlikley to make it optional or take it out altogether.

[wrexingcrew]

Ok, let's try a brief relaxation exercise: inhale, hold, exhale, and stop shouting at the_one.

Tyler_Aus wrote...

Is there parts of the game, that is shipping, that refers to DLC that you have to pay for?

If
that is true, then I would agree with the OP and take back what I said
about their development cycle. That's just plain dirty.

Actually, Tyler, that is what's going on, and precisely what a number of people have objected to.

I object less to that component, actually - it makes me uncomfortable, but one of the development issues that DLC brings up is how to integrate DLC into the game post-release.  Building "hooks" for DLC is what BioWare did here and what they're doing in ME2 to obviate the need for strange post-release fixes to make DLC interface with the original game.  Now, the particular execution, from what we know of it, makes me a little more uncomfortable.  Immersion-breaking is a big issue, and particularly for this reason...that's gross.  I'd much prefer to have to buy the DLC outside the game interface before or after playing rather than try to activate a quest to be met with "hey, login to your EA account, buy the DLC, and sign up for our newsletter while you're at it!"  Given the inevitability of DLC, though, I'm glad BioWare has taken/is taking steps to integrate it more effectively - we've seen the issues in games where it isn't done right. 

My bigger concern comes from my distaste for DLC as a business model, and I think that's where the_one is coming from too.  With DLC generally (I know we've been over the DA:O specifics and where they fall): either manpower is pulled from within the developer, in which case the main game receives less attention, or the work is outsourced.  In the case of ME1's Pinnacle Station DLC, work was outsourced with infamously mediocre results.  DLC, at best, does no harm to the non-purchasing consumer, and at worst impacts the product they purchase negatively.

[the_one_54321]

Taltherion wrote...

the_one ... it was more my impression that you were complaining about DLC in general and less about the way it was implemented, but maybe I got the wrong impression ...

well yes, i was complaining about DLC in general. because i dont like the DLC business model in general. but it serves the same purpose. i dont want DLC in DA:O and i sure as hell dont want an NPC in DA:O offering to sell me DLC.

[Inhuman one]

the problem is that whenever EA is involved, any respect towards customers is thrown out of the window.



I can count on Bioware making quality DLC just as much as I can count on EA to charge us a rediculous price for it.



The only thing I want to ask from Bioware is that it will be mentioned when they do not make the DLC themselves. I prefer to stay away from such garbage as Pinnacle Station for Mass Effect. It gives Bioware a bad name.

[FlintlockJazz]

JackDresden wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

JackDresden wrote...

I'm a supporter of DLC in general and don't really mind about release day DLC so long as the game is good value.

What I object to and the reason I will not be buying Wardens keep or any future DLC released in the concept that the main game will contain NPCs who I can engage in conversation and will give the impression A DLC quest is part of the game I already bought, up until the point I agree to the quest then tell me I need to download and pay for it if I want to actually do it.

That for me is dishonest (a sales pitch disguised as part of my game), makes the game incomplete because it partially puts the DLC in the main game e.g. the quest giver & will then break my immersion to do a financial transaction with EA.

I really am truly shocked a company like Bioware has done this even if they are in a publication deal with EA.

I agree 100% with this.  Makes me wonder if, when patching the game in the future they will add more ingame 'merchants' like this as well.  I do not like having it forced on me, it's like having a shop attendant come up to you after you have left the store and gone home to sell me what looks like a missing piece to the product he sold me earlier.

They haven't said for sure if they will patch more sellers in to sell future DLC, I assume they will if DLC is selling and people don't object strongly enough.

That is worrying.  Hopefully they will come to their senses and not do it is all I can really say to that.

[Fatmanspicnic]

*yawn*

[wrexingcrew]

Inhuman one wrote...
The only thing I want to ask from Bioware is that it will be mentioned when they do not make the DLC themselves. I prefer to stay away from such garbage as Pinnacle Station for Mass Effect. It gives Bioware a bad name.

Amenx1000.  See also my post above.

[fluffyamoeba]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Taltherion wrote...

But they HAVE also said that if they keep getting negative feedback they WILL think about other ways (for future DLC). So ... if we complain nicely ...

this is what i've been trying to do precisely because of this....

with mixed results as you can see.

Don't you think it would have been better to voice your disagreement about this specifically. Rather than about DLC in general including free DLC. The way I see the *free* DLC is that it's just a different way of marketing the kind of patch that adds content. We had several patches that added content to NWN 1 for instance, would you have objected to that if it had been marketed as free DLC (which it was), rather than a patch?

Also, from earlier on in the thread: $7 for 5 hours of gameplay is pretty good. There are a lot of full games that run in at 15-20 hours of gameplay. 15-20 hours of dlc at that price would be $21-28, much cheaper than a new full game.

[the_one_54321]

fluffyamoeba wrote...
Don't you think it would have been better to voice your disagreement about this specifically. Rather than about DLC in general including free DLC. The way I see the *free* DLC is that it's just a different way of marketing the kind of patch that adds content. We had several patches that added content to NWN 1 for instance, would you have objected to that if it had been marketed as free DLC (which it was), rather than a patch?

Also, from earlier on in the thread: $7 for 5 hours of gameplay is pretty good. There are a lot of full games that run in at 15-20 hours of gameplay. 15-20 hours of dlc at that price would be $21-28, much cheaper than a new full game.

well i am opposed to the use of DLC at all, in general as well. and i became rather reactionary at a number of posts  which responded to mine.

besides that, i view continued support of a product quite a bit different from selling DLC. NWN had expansions which were sold and then supported. that was a great system.

if bioware took all these extras and made an expansion pack for DA:O, i'd be perfectly happy with that. as i have said earlier.

edit:

actually, now that you mention it, i never bought any of the DLC that was available for NWN. i didnt really have a grasp of the impact of that structure back then, but it just struck me as something i didnt want to do. eventually i bought the diamond version of the game and got all the extras. but it was never a download.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 29 octobre 2009 - 08:24 .

[jableskage]

Joel171 wrote...

If they intentionally left out content in order to make an extra buck (or 7 or 15) then, yes, I'd be upset as well. However, it has been stated more than once, that the content was not stripped from the game in order cash in. It was extra content outside the original game. That doesn't upset me. Chances are, I won't buy any of the DLC. But that's because I'm getting old and cranky about such things. But it certainly doesn't upset me.

if your naive enough to believe that BS then crack on... do you still think santa and the tooth fairy are real?

[Inhuman one]

I trust Bioware 100%



Its the other parties involved that I dont trust at all. The only really bad decision Bioware ever made was getting involved with those parties.

[JackDresden]

wrexingcrew wrote...


I object less to that component, actually - it makes me uncomfortable, but one of the development issues that DLC brings up is how to integrate DLC into the game post-release.  Building "hooks" for DLC is what BioWare did here and what they're doing in ME2 to obviate the need for strange post-release fixes to make DLC interface with the original game.  Now, the particular execution, from what we know of it, makes me a little more uncomfortable.  Immersion-breaking is a big issue, and particularly for this reason...that's gross.  I'd much prefer to have to buy the DLC outside the game interface before or after playing rather than try to activate a quest to be met with "hey, login to your EA account, buy the DLC, and sign up for our newsletter while you're at it!"  Given the inevitability of DLC, though, I'm glad BioWare has taken/is taking steps to integrate it more effectively - we've seen the issues in games where it isn't done right. 

I have to say that they could easily patch the hook characters into the game with the DLC, I didn't buy that excuse at all myself.

To me the bottom line is this, they know a lot of players will be irrated by this, but they also know Dragon Age is otherwise an exceptional game so they think over all it won't hit sales to badly and that it will help them to shift more DLC than they otherwise would.

I suggest a boycott of the DLC by any of us who don't want to see this becoming more and more common in future games. Only if it doesn't help shift more DLC will they even consider taking it out, it's marketing at the expense of degrading the game for those who don't want to buy DLC.

It's also the reason I won't be buying ME2 at all unless I know for sure this marketing ploy is not being used in it. I enjoyed ME very much and looked forward to ME2 but I'm not as fanatical about it as Dragon Age so am prepared to sacrifice it & the Dragon Age DLC in protest.

Modifié par JackDresden, 29 octobre 2009 - 08:20 .

[the_one_54321]

JackDresden wrote...
I have to say that they could easily patch the hook characters into the game with the DLC, I didn't buy that excuse at all myself.

To me the bottom line is this, they know a lot of players will be irrated by this, but they also know Dragon Age is otherwise an exceptional game so they think over all it won't hit sales to badly and that it will help them to shift more DLC than they otherwise would.

I suggest a boycott of the DLC by any of use who don't want to see this becoming more and more common in future games. Only if it doesn't help shift more DLC will they even consider taking it out, it's marketing at the expense of degrading the game for those who don't want to buy DLC.

It's also the reason I won't be buying ME2 at all unless I know for sure this marketing ploy is not being used in it. I enjoyed ME very much and looked forward to ME2 but I'm not as fanatical about it as Dragon Age so am prepared to sacrifice it & the Dragon Age DLC in protest.

this has been more or less my thought process as well. i really dont buy the explanation. it doesnt add up under close scrutiny. and im not going to buy the DLC either.

[Taltherion]

jableskage wrote...

Joel171 wrote...

If they intentionally left out content in order to make an extra buck (or 7 or 15) then, yes, I'd be upset as well. However, it has been stated more than once, that the content was not stripped from the game in order cash in. It was extra content outside the original game. That doesn't upset me. Chances are, I won't buy any of the DLC. But that's because I'm getting old and cranky about such things. But it certainly doesn't upset me.

if your naive enough to believe that BS then crack on... do you still think santa and the tooth fairy are real?

well, up to a point I also DO find it believeable ... because most of the DLC content is free. If somebody wanted to cash in, charging a dollar or two for the now free content would have been swallowed by most customers, I'm sure. THe only DLC that costs money is Warden's Keep and while it is possible that it was originally in the game or planned for the original game, I don't see any proof for this ... and general distrust is no proof.

[wrexingcrew]

Right, the particular way they've gone about it here is objectionable, I agree. My point was just that DLC is the disease, this method is a symptom. So I'm with you - no DLC for wrexingcrew.

EDIT: fixed typo.  Also, this is directed at Jack/the_one, in case that's not obvious.

Modifié par wrexingcrew, 29 octobre 2009 - 08:23 .

[Tyler_Aus]

I don't disagree with DLC content at all. The premiss behind it, at least in my opinion, is that you enjoy the game as intended and want more. There are games that I have purchased DLC because I wanted more, and others which I didn't (Fallout 3).



The fact that they are changing the way we view the orignal intended version of the game is just plain disappointing. I have to agree that if in the middle of my game I go to an NPC and he says "Hey go on this quest, but first you have to spend money," I would feel that I am getting an unfinished product.



There are always areas to place new NPCs, random encounters and numerous other devices that should be easy to integrate into the game. I don't even mind a collapsed cave that I can't explore, but if I buy some DLC it opens up. Just don't tell me it is available for money.



Dirty just plain dirty....



Now I'm disappointed, something I thought would be impossible with this game. I really don't see it being Bioware's MO to do this, but they won't comment on this and probably never will...



Damn.....

[Direbrute]

GhoXen wrote...

EA

QFT

[JackDresden]

wrexingcrew wrote...

Right, the particular way they've gone about it here is objectionable, I agree. My point was just that DLC is the disease, this method is a symptom. So I'm with you - no DLC for wrexingcrew.

EDIT: fixed typo.  Also, this is directed at Jack/the_one, in case that's not obvious.

I don't 100% agree in that I don't object to DLC in principle so long as it's fairly priced, although on the whole DLC content is often worse value for money than an expansion pack because although a bit cheaper it often has much, much less content.

Still at over 80 hours per run through and good replayability otherwise Dragon Age itself is good value.

How good the value of any DLC is something I would judge on individual case. But for Dragon Age & future Bioware games that use the in game NPC marketing trick it doesn't matter any more because I won't consider buying them, at least until Bioware change their minds about this travisty.

[JackDresden]

Tyler_Aus wrote...

I don't disagree with DLC content at all. The premiss behind it, at least in my opinion, is that you enjoy the game as intended and want more. There are games that I have purchased DLC because I wanted more, and others which I didn't (Fallout 3).

The fact that they are changing the way we view the orignal intended version of the game is just plain disappointing. I have to agree that if in the middle of my game I go to an NPC and he says "Hey go on this quest, but first you have to spend money," I would feel that I am getting an unfinished product.

There are always areas to place new NPCs, random encounters and numerous other devices that should be easy to integrate into the game. I don't even mind a collapsed cave that I can't explore, but if I buy some DLC it opens up. Just don't tell me it is available for money.

Dirty just plain dirty....

Now I'm disappointed, something I thought would be impossible with this game. I really don't see it being Bioware's MO to do this, but they won't comment on this and probably never will...

Damn.....

I agree with everything you say here 100%, but they did comment on the old da forum, also if you look in the UK PC Zone review there is a small box out about it. I got the impression Bioware employees where trying to defend it rather unconvincingly because I think they probably know it damages the game (and their reputation as developers) but have to tow the corporate line.

Modifié par JackDresden, 29 octobre 2009 - 08:35 .