206 réponses à ce sujet

[fluffyamoeba]

the_one_54321 wrote...

actually, now that you mention it, i never bought any of the DLC that was available for NWN. i didnt really have a grasp of the impact of that structure back then, but it just struck me as something i didnt want to do. eventually i bought the diamond version of the game and got all the extras. but it was never a download.

The DLC paid for the continued support after HotU was released. Otherwise it would have been one patch and that's it. It paid for all the bug fixes, it paid for NWN getting cloaks, bowstrings (heh), rideable horses and more new art resources than was contained in HotU and SoU combined.

I actually liked that system - if you don't want the DLC the only thing you are missing out on is the modules, you get all the other content from the DLC for free eventually. It also meant that tiny chunks of DLC like horse armour never happened - as that's the sort of thing that would be patched in for free.

[Inhuman one]

I am guessing they already reget making a pact with the devil (EA)



Maybe we can use the toolset to tear out these references or just make our own content and areas to go with it and our own stories?

[the_one_54321]

fluffyamoeba wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

actually, now that you mention it, i never bought any of the DLC that was available for NWN. i didnt really have a grasp of the impact of that structure back then, but it just struck me as something i didnt want to do. eventually i bought the diamond version of the game and got all the extras. but it was never a download.

The DLC paid for the continued support after HotU was released. Otherwise it would have been one patch and that's it. It paid for all the bug fixes, it paid for NWN getting cloaks, bowstrings (heh), rideable horses and more new art resources than was contained in HotU and SoU combined.

I actually liked that system - if you don't want the DLC the only thing you are missing out on is the modules, you get all the other content from the DLC for free eventually. It also meant that tiny chunks of DLC like horse armour never happened - as that's the sort of thing that would be patched in for free.

it was an interesting process, but to be honest i felt i got more out of all the community projects than i did out of all of the patches that were made. in the end i would have been happy if they put all the extras into one box and sold it with the diamond version.

[Tyler_Aus]

JackDresden wrote...

I agree with everything you say here 100%, but they did comment on the old da forum, also if you look in the UK PC Zone review there is a small box out about it. I got the impression Bioware employees where trying to defend it rather unconvincingly because I think they probably know it damages the game (and their reputation as developers) but have to tow the corporate line.

I can understand why they are defending it, they are slaves to their mega-corp big bosses. It's just too bad it had to happen that way.

Oh and thanks for agreeing with me. That was one of the very few posts on this thread actually agreeing with anything... LOL 

[JackDresden]

Inhuman one wrote...

I am guessing they already reget making a pact with the devil (EA)

Maybe we can use the toolset to tear out these references or just make our own content and areas to go with it and our own stories?

I hope so though if they keep patching new ones in as they make new DLC that will quickly become a pain. I'm sure if it's possible such a user patch will rapidly become very popular I know I'd use it.

[Inhuman one]

Me too, I would prefer that over paid content.



I am guessing they are going to limit our use of the toolset and mod tools however since it would hurt sales of DLC.



That in turn would ****** off all fans that remember Neverwinter Nights though. They want improvement and dont want to take steps backwards.

[Leonaius]

I'm hoping for ALOT of added content to be honest, when i play my rpgs like mass effect and kotor i like to complete everything. I feel sad when i finish the game so i always beef up the game before i play it, mostly with mods and added expansions that are for sale.

I hope they recognise the good business oppertunity in bringing out alot of expansions, so then it adds atleast 20+ more hours gameplay all together.

I'd be extremely happy if that were the case, then by the time they released DA 2 you could do a complete playthrough of 1 and 2.

Modifié par Leonaius, 29 octobre 2009 - 08:49 .

[Taltherion]

Inhuman one wrote...

Me too, I would prefer that over paid content.

I am guessing they are going to limit our use of the toolset and mod tools however since it would hurt sales of DLC.

That in turn would ****** off all fans that remember Neverwinter Nights though. They want improvement and dont want to take steps backwards.

If they make it impossible for us to tamper with the original campaign - that's ok for me. But I would deeply resent any further limiting of the toolset in order to sell DLC. I expect them to come up with DLC that makes me want to buy it in its merits and not because I can't make something half-decent on my own using the toolset.

[fluffyamoeba]

the_one_54321 wrote...

it was an interesting process, but to be honest i felt i got more out of all the community projects than i did out of all of the patches that were made. in the end i would have been happy if they put all the extras into one box and sold it with the diamond version.

I agree, it was a shame that they couldn't make another edition after the final patch that contained everything. Idealy, I think this is how DLC should be - that it gets wrapped up into an expansion or GotY edition. And that it should, like it was for NWN, be substantial content. Like you, I'll only be getting things that I actually think are worth buying. I really do hope that DA won't do Sims-like DLC, but if they do, I just won't buy it.

However, the changes that the patches gave to the community projects were hugely helpful. Particularly the ones to do with resource limits and the extra scripting functions. Those wouldn't have happened without the DLC. Er... however, this is getting rather off topic

[JackDresden]

Taltherion wrote...

Inhuman one wrote...

Me too, I would prefer that over paid content.

I am guessing they are going to limit our use of the toolset and mod tools however since it would hurt sales of DLC.

That in turn would ****** off all fans that remember Neverwinter Nights though. They want improvement and dont want to take steps backwards.

If they make it impossible for us to tamper with the original campaign - that's ok for me. But I would deeply resent any further limiting of the toolset in order to sell DLC. I expect them to come up with DLC that makes me want to buy it in its merits and not because I can't make something half-decent on my own using the toolset.

Well I suspect it won't be as easy to MOD the main game as Oblivion was for example because of how mods work.

[Arconi4n03]

Mr. Dresden already knows my stance on this, I don't really mind because I was going to buy the DLC anyway so I will never meet the ingame merchants. The problem is the more I hear about how truly you people dispise this system, the more I want to help you guys. But does this mean I cannot buy any DLC at all? Because I'm really looking forward to Warden's Keep:unsure:
But I also want you guys to know I'm behind you

[Taltherion]

As far as I remember from NWN, you could somehow mod the original campaign, though it was not THAT easy. And I'm fine with that. The original campaign is Bioware's creation and it's not very polite to mess around with another's creation without permission. So this is where Oblivion and NWN were very different:

Oblivion: mod the main campaign (there are hardly any really finished mods for Oblivion that completely replace the main campaign, most add amor, weapons, improve graphics etc) ...

NWN (and I guess Dragon Age): don't tamper with the original campaign, but create long or short adventures/campaigns of your own - and there you can add weapons, armor, etc.

[Kulgrim]

Well, not to burst anyones bubbles, but I can promise you the age of disks is rapidly coming to a close.

Someone earlier mentioned being able to buy old xbox games for DL on live, what they may not have noticed is that you can now also buy Xbox 360 games as well. Fable 2 for example is broken up into 5 chapters 4 of which can be purchased, chapter 1 is free. Ialso noticed games like Army of 2, Grand Theft Auto 4, and other AAA titles. My point is, by the time the next series of consols drop I'd wager they may cut out the manufactoring portion of game development all together and go with digital downloads only.

Switching to digital downloads would cut down on the cost of game manufactoring, while allowing them to charge a price we are used to paying. Look at Steam and other direct to drive stores, you still pay fifty dollars for the product, while not recieving a printed manual, box, dvd/cd case, and the disks themselves. Yet we pay the same price because that is what we are used to paying.

In fact from there is a console in the works that runs on nothing but streamed games, you dont even get a digital copy, its all stored on their internal servers and you simply stream the game like a movie.

So as others have said, either adapt to the changing buisness model, or stick with playing old games or find a new hobby. I am not advocating this practice but I can definitly see why the industry would switch to that type of distribution.

Modifié par Kulgrim, 29 octobre 2009 - 09:29 .

[JackDresden]

Oh I think it will be possible in a similar way to NWN I just don't think it will be easy...and will they keep patching more back in again as they develop DLC.



Arconi4n03, I respect your position and thank you for the moral support.

[JackDresden]

Kulgrim wrote...

Well, not to burst anyones bubbles, but I can promise you the age of disks is rapidly coming to a close.

Someone earlier mentioned being able to buy old xbox games for DL on live, what they may not have noticed is that you can now also buy Xbox 360 games as well. Fable 2 for example is broken up into 5 chapters 4 of which can be purchased, chapter 1 is free. Ialso noticed games like Army of 2, Grand Theft Auto 4, and other AAA titles. My point is, by the time the next series of consols drop I'd wager they may cut out the manufactoring portion of game development all together and go with digital downloads only.

Switching to digital downloads would cut down on the cost of game manufactoring, while allowing them to charge a price we are used to paying. Look at Steam and other direct to drive stores, you still pay fifty dollars for the product, while not recieving a printed manual, box, dvd/cd case, and the disks themselves. Yet we pay the same price because that is what we are used to paying.

In fact from there is a console in the works that runs on nothing but streamed games, you dont even get a digital copy, its all stored on their internal servers and you simply stream the game like a movie.

So as others have said, either adapt to the changing buisness model, or stick with playing old games or find a new hobby. I am not advocating this practice but I can definitly see why the industry would switch to that type of distribution.

I agree in fact I bought the game through Steam, it doesn't excuse their shoddy new in game marketing technique though.

DLC fine, but don't pollute my game with NPCs trying to sell it to me, particularly in a sneaky way.

[s4nder]

I don't know why anyone would get upset about a 7$ add-on. A pizza I ate today cost more and it surely didn't provide me with hours of entertainment . Regardless, I bought the DDE so for me it's included in the game from the start.

Modifié par s4nder, 29 octobre 2009 - 09:48 .

[Taltherion]

People complain about different things here ... some don't like DLC (I like it in general) ... and some dislike the idea of having a DLC-salesguy disguised as a character in the game (which kindof buggers me a bit, too).

[wrexingcrew]

Kulgrim wrote...

Well, not to burst anyones bubbles, but I can promise you the age of disks is rapidly coming to a close.

<snip>

So as others have said, either adapt to the changing buisness model, or stick with playing old games or find a new hobby. I am not advocating this practice but I can definitly see why the industry would switch to that type of distribution.

I'm not sure who you're responding to there.  I haven't seen anyone complain that DLC isn't physical/is too ephemeral.

To your final point, you suggest that customers renounce all agency and either meekly accept episodic content or quit playing games.  I plan to voice my opinion and draw some clear distinctions before just giving up on gaming, if that's all right by you.  I see the appeal for the gaming industry too - reduced overhead, shorter development cycles, and so on.  I see the appeal for the music industry of releasing singles/using the iTunes model, but I prefer the album as an artistic work - and I prefer the artists that work in that medium.  There are artists/groups that put out great singles, and I can appreciate that, just as I can appreciate entertaining bite-sized digitally-distributed games like Battlefield 1943.  But Bioware and most developers, particularly RPG developers - work best with long-form games.  Thomas Pynchon wrote some great essays, but I much prefer Gravity's Rainbow.  I'm not making a slippery slope argument - Bioware clearly continues to pour as much if not more effort into their games now.  As long as that remains the case, I'll be a loyal customer.  That doesn't mean I can't be concerned about the effect of DLC on the development process.

[Inhuman one]

I would want the option to kill any merchant that tries to sell me such things. Its poor practice.



As for editing the main campaign, I did that with Neverwinter Nights. After two expansions and CEP2 there is a lot of stuff that helped me improve the visuals of the campaign a lot. I dont see it as disrespectfull at all. You just improve the experience. I even added some areas as well such as a temple in Blacklake and a ship interiour for the bloodsailor ship.



It kind of gives you the opportunity to do the stuff Bioware does not have the time for. I respect that of course and I dont blame them for not giving every little shop its own look and feel. I personly like that though and dont mind adding it myself.



The shining knights arms and armor in Neverwinter chapter 1 is my pride and joy pretty much. I threw in some knightly music added through the last patch, I placed down some armor stands that where added through CEP and I decorated the place with tables, chairs, carpets, plants, weapon racks and tapestries. I also made a little hallway to make it all look more formal. The shopkeeper's attire I changed to something of a squire outfit with a surcoat.



As default that shop is an empty room with a shopkeeper in the middle of it with some generic music in the background.

[goat_fab]

siodine wrote...

I have been a Bioware fan since I started playing video games. Back before I eeven payed attention to who developed a game, I played through MDK in my first all nighter to beat a game. I've loved every game since, especially Baldurs Gate 2. I played that game for as long as most people play MMORPG. You could say I wore the tires out on it. They make exceptional games and despite spending less and less time gaming, I continue to buy every game they pump out, sometimes on multiple systems eventually. So know I am coming from a place of love. I have been looking forward to Dragon Age for what seems like forever. I still am. But...

Coming out with a game and not including all the ready content in the box is disrepectful to fans. Bioware has got to get paid, and they deserve to, I recognize this.  I recognize the gaming industry has changed and long development times on giant games wont pay the bills. There will never again be a BG2:SOA. But these two DLC packs being avaliable at release yet not being included in the game is a line that should not be crossed.

If I buy a game, give me the whole thing. If the content could be created during intial development, put it in. 

Want the full game included in your retail purchase? Boycott DLC. It's a stupid concept to sucker people in. People don't realize that they could throw all that stuff into the game to begin with, but don't because they can earn a quick buck.

[wonko33]

If paying 70$ for 80hours + of entertainment is unacceptable, I really wonder what kind of entertainment you will be going for instead.

As for the DLC, yes they could just include everything but they feel they could charge 70-80$ for it. This way buy the 60$, if you like it buy the exta DLC for 80$, If you don't like the game then you just saved 20$.



You think paying 100$ for a 3 hours concert is better? 10$ buck for a 2hour movie? You said your self you played previous games for hours and hours.



Now if you feel they are screwing you over and it's not worth the price, don't buy it, just give your money to a company you feel is respecting your rights as a consumer. If enough people do that, next time the price will be lower. If we don't then we thought it was worth it.



It's funny how people talk like they HAVE TO get this game/tv/thing, you don't, you'll be just fine without it. If I didn't think it was worth the price I would not get it and my life would be just fine, just like when i decide not to go to a concert.

[Snycka]

Wow... read through this thread ( although I may have missed some key responses ). It's interesting to note the varying opinions on the subj of DLC. Thank you all for providing your various responses ( the polite and informative ones at least )

I'll admit to being more than a bit surprised to learn of the in game merchant who "sells" additional content. Until that tidbit of info was dropped, I was leaning more towards the "it's the nature of the business, so either buy it -or- don't" concept. Now, I believe I might be more inclined to agree with the OP's initial thoughts.. and that of "The_One".

Bear in mind that I'm not a techie.. so am not in the know about the time tables, last day for content add, ect...... This being said, the argument was made a few times that the production team had to stop developing content for the gold version of the game at a certain point. The additional content was then developed ( while the original game was being debugged and such ) and later added as a choice for DLC. If the above is accurate, when did they code in the merchant that sells the add'l content? Doesn't that kind of point to the possibility that it was planned that way from the get go?

It should be noted that I ask the question quite simply because I'm curious about others thoughts on this. Personally, I will more than likely follow the plan of one of the 1st page posters... "Play the game a bit and if I enjoy it... purchase the additional content". I do not however approve of the merchant selling method of delivery. I would have preferred just getting it from the website. The concept kind of sours the game for me a bit.

* Edited to replace the acronym DDL with DLC  =D

Semper Fi,
Snycka

Modifié par Snycka, 29 octobre 2009 - 11:41 .

[SheffSteel]

They planned to support DLC from a relatively early point. Given that they decided that an ingame saleman was a good idea, it makes sense for them to do the R&D necessary to set up the tech to support it.

[Ravenshrike]

siodine wrote...
However, I do think its hard to compare the two. Games are both a product and an artistic medium. I look at this like a book. How would you feel if your favorite author came out with a book, thought of two great new chapters to address further content he wishes to convey after sending it off to the publisher, and sold them separately on the books release date.

Considering I own one of the Grantville Gazettes and all of the Honor Harrington anthologies, I'd say it feels just fine.

[Ariella]

siodine wrote...



Coming out with a game and not including all the ready content in the box is disrepectful to fans. Bioware has got to get paid, and they deserve to, I recognize this.  I recognize the gaming industry has changed and long development times on giant games wont pay the bills. There will never again be a BG2:SOA. But these two DLC packs being avaliable at release yet not being included in the game is a line that should not be crossed.

This section here pretty much shows you haven't been paying attention. The DLC could NOT have been included in the game and still make the November 3rd release date.

Content was locked down in the spring, they've been polishing and bug hunting ever since. Stone Prisoner was cut early but when the DLC team (seperate from the main DA dev team) was able to take a piece, that would never have seen the light of dan In the BG era, and finish it as FREE DLC because they had a different localization schedule and they didn't have to worry about physical media etc.

I'm tired of the whining and self entitlement I've been seeing over the DLc issue. None of the DLC is required to finish the game, and of the DLC pieces being presented one is free with the purchase of any new DAO unit. How is this a bad thing?