42 réponses à ce sujet

[sevenplusone]

I did one for solo, and after more testing on classes soloing it looks really solid. So, I figured I would do one for your typical DA2 Nightmare run. Hopefully this will help those having trouble, or just starting.

This list takes into account everything. Damage, durability, survivability, support, and CC.

Tier 1:

Ranged Rogue/Archer

Damage: The best in the game

Durability: Poor

Survivability: The best in the game

Support: Average

CC: Average

Support/CC Mages

Damage: Poor

Durability: Poor

Survivability: Below average

Support: The best in the game

CC: Great


Tier 2:

2H Warrior

Damage: Great

Durability: Great

Survivability: Below average

Support: Great

CC: Great

Sword and Board Warriors:

Damage: Great

Durability: The best in the game

Survivability: Good

Support: Great

CC: Good

Tier 3:

Damage Mages

Damage: Above average

Durability: Above Average

Survivability: Below Average

Support: Poor

CC: Average

Tier 4:

Dual Wield Rogues

Damage: Great

Durability: Above average

Survivability: Great

Support: Average

CC: Average

-

Tier explanations:

Tier 1: These classes have a job, and they're the absolute best at it. You can run 3 ranged rogues instead of a support mage, but a support mage makes the game so much easier. Don't get me wrong, 3 ranged rogue party is stupid good, but you can replace 1 ranged rogue with a support mage and do just fine. These 2 classes are a weclome addition to any team.

Tier 2: These 2 have the same job, and are equally good at it for different reasons. 2H warriors are better for fights like High Dragon, where you know the spawn points and can instagib the dragonlings. Whereas sword and board warriors are good on single target fights like Rock Wraith(as shown by rumination888) - Rock Wraith adds cant be AoE'd in any viable manner, better to just focus boss down and pick off adds.

Tier 3: Damage mages aren't last place simply because they're ranged and do damage.

Tier 4: DW Rogues are outclassed in every single facet of the game by every other damage dealer. They have a cool niche on Rock Wraith fight where you can get him down in 4 minutes 15 seconds as tested by me today, but that's about all they have going for them.

Modifié par sevenplusone, 18 mars 2011 - 06:42 .

[Kathila]

You say it as if you could realistically choose not to take a support/CC mage with you.

[sevenplusone]

You can easily beat the game without a support/CC mage. Fenris tank, Varric, Sebas and Archer Hawke is a beastly party.

Modifié par sevenplusone, 17 mars 2011 - 06:50 .

[rumination888]

sevenplusone wrote...

Sword and Board Warriors:

Damage: Below average

Durability: The best in the game

Survivability: Good

Support: Great

CC: Good

I like sword and board warriors, but 2H warriors are better to have as your tank and it's not even close. The only thing a sword and board warrior has on a 2H warrior is durability. Which really doesn't matter much in this case if you build your party at least somewhat decently, because a 2H warrior tank will live until the end of any fight.

Yeaaaa... no.

[sevenplusone]

rumination888 wrote...

sevenplusone wrote...

Sword and Board Warriors:

Damage: Below average

Durability: The best in the game

Survivability: Good

Support: Great

CC: Good

I like sword and board warriors, but 2H warriors are better to have as your tank and it's not even close. The only thing a sword and board warrior has on a 2H warrior is durability. Which really doesn't matter much in this case if you build your party at least somewhat decently, because a 2H warrior tank will live until the end of any fight.

Yeaaaa... no.

Explain? When compared to everyone else, except for support mages, their damage is lackluster.

[Kathila]

sevenplusone wrote...

You can easily beat the game without a support/CC mage. Fenris tank, Varric, Sebas and Archer Hawke is a beastly party.

So you're running a party with no group buffs and almost no cross-class synergy, and this is supposed to be better than including a mage?

Also, what is a "damage mage" anyway?  Are you intentionally avoiding support and disable abilities?  Sounds to me like it's not a class concept, it's just a subpar build.

sevenplusone wrote...
Explain? When compared to everyone else, except for support mages, their damage is lackluster.

If you're toting around three rogues, wouldn't a sword and board warrior actually do more damage?  I mean, 2H warriors don't have any abilities that exploit disorient.  Plus, sword and board warriors can stagger pretty often even though they don't have it on autoattacks, since they can shield bash and pommel strike each on a 10 second cooldown.

Modifié par Kathila, 17 mars 2011 - 07:11 .

[sevenplusone]

Kathila wrote...

sevenplusone wrote...

You can easily beat the game without a support/CC mage. Fenris tank, Varric, Sebas and Archer Hawke is a beastly party.

So you're running a party with no group buffs and almost no cross-class synergy, and this is supposed to be better than including a mage?

Also, what is a "damage mage" anyway?  Are you intentionally avoiding support and disable abilities?  Sounds to me like it's not a class concept, it's just a subpar build.

The cross class thing is cute, but it requires more work than neccessary to beat anything. Ranged rogues do so much damage, the second you focus fire any elite when using 3 of them, they're dead instantly. Taking time to set up abilities is just not needed. As sad as it is, spam is more efficient than waiting for abilities to be used in comination.

Running a damage mage with auras, means you're doing less damage than you could. Running a support mage with max auras means you have very little mana, and that needs to be used on CC, haste, and heals.

Kathila wrote...

sevenplusone wrote...
Explain? When compared to everyone else, except for support mages, their damage is lackluster.

If
you're toting around three rogues, wouldn't a sword and board warrior
actually do more damage?  I mean, 2H warriors don't have any abilities
that exploit disorient.  Plus, sword and board warriors can stagger
pretty often even though they don't have it on autoattacks, since they
can shield bash and pommel strike each on a 10 second cooldown.

No, because mobs die so fast when using a 2h warrior tank + 3 rogues you don't have time to take advantage of anything. My fastest boss speed kills have all been with a 2H warrior tank, and I'm sure most people haven't touched my boss times so take that for what it's worth.

Modifié par sevenplusone, 17 mars 2011 - 07:18 .

[rumination888]

sevenplusone wrote...

Explain? When compared to everyone else, except for support mages, their damage is lackluster.

Their single-target auto-attack DPS is the exact same as a two-hander's DPS. Their abilities have the same damage potential as two-handers except they use Disorient instead of Brittle. This alone actually makes their abilities dish out more single-target damage than a 2-handed warrior.

Now, if you look at what causes Brittle vs. what causes Disorient, you'll notice that the highest chance to Brittle is connected with the spell that also increases enemy damage resistance by 20% - Petrify.
Disorient, on the otherhand, can be gained from Fatiguing Fog(100% chance), which also Disorients enemies in a large radius - perfect for setting up Scatter's frontal AoE.

In terms of supporting your other teammates through CCC, Shield Bash has a 100% chance to stagger enemies - including bosses. I can see why you'd make the statement that CCC is more trouble than its worth if you rated two-handers so highly.

Don't take this the wrong way, I'm not saying shields are better than two-handers. Two-handers still have the advantage of massive AoE. That doesn't make them better or worse, it just makes them different.

[Kathila]

Which auras are you actually running? I think a lot of them are practically useless. I guess if you're saying that DPS makes everything else irrelevant, then there's no issue one way or another, but then why even discuss tiers?

[sevenplusone]

rumination888 wrote...

sevenplusone wrote...

Explain? When compared to everyone else, except for support mages, their damage is lackluster.

Their single-target auto-attack DPS is the exact same as a two-hander's DPS. Their abilities have the same damage potential as two-handers except they use Disorient instead of Brittle. This alone actually makes their abilities dish out more single-target damage than a 2-handed warrior.

Now, if you look at what causes Brittle vs. what causes Disorient, you'll notice that the highest chance to Brittle is connected with the spell that also increases enemy damage resistance by 20% - Petrify.
Disorient, on the otherhand, can be gained from Fatiguing Fog(100% chance), which also Disorients enemies in a large radius - perfect for setting up Scatter's frontal AoE.

In terms of supporting your other teammates through CCC, Shield Bash has a 100% chance to stagger enemies - including bosses. I can see why you'd make the statement that CCC is more trouble than its worth if you rated two-handers so highly.

Don't take this the wrong way, I'm not saying shields are better than two-handers. Two-handers still have the advantage of massive AoE. That doesn't make them better or worse, it just makes them different.

Single target auto attack DPS isn't what makes 2H warrior damage good. 2H warrior damage doesn't need a setup to be devastating, and that's why they're so good. Go into a fight, pop mighty blow on a group, have your ranged rogues pick 1 target and they enemy dead in literally 2 seconds. Next mob is hit by Pinning Shot, dead in 2 seconds, next mob, hit by the other rogues pinning shot, dead, next mob(s) hit by scythe, rogues focus it, dead in 2 seconds. Talking elite-level mobs here. Rinse, repeat. No need for CCC.

[sevenplusone]

Kathila wrote...

Which auras are you actually running? I think a lot of them are practically useless. I guess if you're saying that DPS makes everything else irrelevant, then there's no issue one way or another, but then why even discuss tiers?

With Anders I run Heroic Aura(improved), Elemental weapons, Panacea.  I tried running him with a few damage spells, turning Panacea off before a fight, then turning it on when needed. I noticed it really didn't matter, because again, things dies so quick. Either he would get off a spell on a mob and it would die, but someone would waste an attack on a dead mob, or the mob would die before the spell did damage, thus wasting mana. For bosses hes spending most of his mana on haste and heals.

Mage Hawke is pretty much the same.

And we're discussing tiers because this is a list based on the best classes for your group. Making a synergy tier list, based off of CCC, is pointless imo. CCC is a cool concept, but in practice, there are quicker and more efficient ways of getting things done.

Modifié par sevenplusone, 17 mars 2011 - 07:32 .

[rumination888]

sevenplusone wrote...

rumination888 wrote...

sevenplusone wrote...

Explain? When compared to everyone else, except for support mages, their damage is lackluster.

Their single-target auto-attack DPS is the exact same as a two-hander's DPS. Their abilities have the same damage potential as two-handers except they use Disorient instead of Brittle. This alone actually makes their abilities dish out more single-target damage than a 2-handed warrior.

Now, if you look at what causes Brittle vs. what causes Disorient, you'll notice that the highest chance to Brittle is connected with the spell that also increases enemy damage resistance by 20% - Petrify.
Disorient, on the otherhand, can be gained from Fatiguing Fog(100% chance), which also Disorients enemies in a large radius - perfect for setting up Scatter's frontal AoE.

In terms of supporting your other teammates through CCC, Shield Bash has a 100% chance to stagger enemies - including bosses. I can see why you'd make the statement that CCC is more trouble than its worth if you rated two-handers so highly.

Don't take this the wrong way, I'm not saying shields are better than two-handers. Two-handers still have the advantage of massive AoE. That doesn't make them better or worse, it just makes them different.

Single target auto attack DPS isn't what makes 2H warrior damage good. 2H warrior damage doesn't need a setup to be devastating, and that's why they're so good. Go into a fight, pop mighty blow on a group, have your ranged rogues pick 1 target and they enemy dead in literally 2 seconds. Next mob is hit by Pinning Shot, dead in 2 seconds, next mob, hit by the other rogues pinning shot, dead, next mob(s) hit by scythe, rogues focus it, dead in 2 seconds. Talking elite-level mobs here. Rinse, repeat. No need for CCC.

You don't need a setup for shield abilities to be "devastating" either. You never actually looked at the damage of Scatter and Assault, have you?

[sevenplusone]

rumination888 wrote...

sevenplusone wrote...

rumination888 wrote...

sevenplusone wrote...

Explain? When compared to everyone else, except for support mages, their damage is lackluster.

Their single-target auto-attack DPS is the exact same as a two-hander's DPS. Their abilities have the same damage potential as two-handers except they use Disorient instead of Brittle. This alone actually makes their abilities dish out more single-target damage than a 2-handed warrior.

Now, if you look at what causes Brittle vs. what causes Disorient, you'll notice that the highest chance to Brittle is connected with the spell that also increases enemy damage resistance by 20% - Petrify.
Disorient, on the otherhand, can be gained from Fatiguing Fog(100% chance), which also Disorients enemies in a large radius - perfect for setting up Scatter's frontal AoE.

In terms of supporting your other teammates through CCC, Shield Bash has a 100% chance to stagger enemies - including bosses. I can see why you'd make the statement that CCC is more trouble than its worth if you rated two-handers so highly.

Don't take this the wrong way, I'm not saying shields are better than two-handers. Two-handers still have the advantage of massive AoE. That doesn't make them better or worse, it just makes them different.

Single target auto attack DPS isn't what makes 2H warrior damage good. 2H warrior damage doesn't need a setup to be devastating, and that's why they're so good. Go into a fight, pop mighty blow on a group, have your ranged rogues pick 1 target and they enemy dead in literally 2 seconds. Next mob is hit by Pinning Shot, dead in 2 seconds, next mob, hit by the other rogues pinning shot, dead, next mob(s) hit by scythe, rogues focus it, dead in 2 seconds. Talking elite-level mobs here. Rinse, repeat. No need for CCC.

You don't need a setup for shield abilities to be "devastating" either. You never actually looked at the damage of Scatter and Assault, have you?

To even touch a 2H warriors damage, they need a setup. Making a target disoriented, then using your ability, is a setup and an unneeded one. The target that got hit by pinning shot should be almost dead, so a simple mighty blow should finish it off, and the mighty blow will do a lot of AoE damage as well. When talking about damage, it's not limited to just single target. I ran a sword and board warrior on my first playthrough and it was nice, but 2H warriors just do it better.

[rumination888]

sevenplusone wrote...

To even touch a 2H warriors damage, they need a setup. Making a target disoriented, then using your ability, is a setup and an unneeded one. The target that got hit by pinning shot should be almost dead, so a simple mighty blow should finish it off, and the mighty blow will do a lot of AoE damage as well. When talking about damage, it's not limited to just single target. I ran a sword and board warrior on my first playthrough and it was nice, but 2H warriors just do it better.

Either you never paid attention to Scatter/Assault's damage potential when you played a shield warrior, or you're mistaking the capabilities of a two-hander with the capabilities ot Vanguard/Reaver.

Its interesting that you gave an example of how 2 DPS specced archers, a two-hand tank, and a support mage could drop the Rock Wraith in 7 minutes as part of your reason for listing them as tier 1. What if I told you its possible to do it under 5 with a CC/support specced archer, 2 DPS/support mages, and a shield warrior?

Modifié par rumination888, 17 mars 2011 - 07:49 .

[Kathila]

rumination888 wrote...

sevenplusone wrote...

To even touch a 2H warriors damage, they need a setup. Making a target disoriented, then using your ability, is a setup and an unneeded one. The target that got hit by pinning shot should be almost dead, so a simple mighty blow should finish it off, and the mighty blow will do a lot of AoE damage as well. When talking about damage, it's not limited to just single target. I ran a sword and board warrior on my first playthrough and it was nice, but 2H warriors just do it better.

Either you never paid attention to Scatter/Assault's damage potential when you played a shield warrior, or you're mistaking the capabilities of a two-hander with the capabilities ot Vanguard/Reaver.

Its interesting that you gave an example of how 2 DPS specced archers, a two-hand tank, and a support mage could drop the Rock Wraith in 7 minutes as part of your reason for listing them as tier 1. What if I told you its possible to do it under 5 with a CC/support specced archer, 2 DPS/support mages, and a shield warrior?

Also, 5 minutes seems like a lot of time to use setups in.

[sevenplusone]

rumination888 wrote...

sevenplusone wrote...

To even touch a 2H warriors damage, they need a setup. Making a target disoriented, then using your ability, is a setup and an unneeded one. The target that got hit by pinning shot should be almost dead, so a simple mighty blow should finish it off, and the mighty blow will do a lot of AoE damage as well. When talking about damage, it's not limited to just single target. I ran a sword and board warrior on my first playthrough and it was nice, but 2H warriors just do it better.

Either you never paid attention to Scatter/Assault's damage potential when you played a shield warrior, or you're mistaking the capabilities of a two-hander with the capabilities ot Vanguard/Reaver.

Its interesting that you gave an example of how 2 DPS specced archers, a two-hand tank, and a support mage could drop the Rock Wraith in 7 minutes as part of your reason for listing them as tier 1. What if I told you its possible to do it under 5 with a CC/support specced archer, 2 DPS mages, and a shield warrior?

It's not a reason for listing them as tier 1, rather just an example of how powerful 2 ranged rogues and 2H warriors are when combined.

I would believe it. I'm almost at 6min with Merrill, Varric, Archer Hawke, and Fenris. Spam seems to be the way to go for me so far, making sure CDs are up for dormant phases.

Starting to think it's just a mage friendly fight as when I tried it with Merrill, Varric, Isabela, and Mage Hawke, I would have probably got it in 4 if I had the patience to position properly. It was really late and I did it for ****s n giggles, but then again the 4 minutes is a complete guess based off 2 phases, so I have to try it out to see if it's legit or not. That was pretty much spam too.

Anyway, you have to go out of your way to kill him quick. If you want to stick with mostly 1 really strong, easy party throughout the game, then 2H warrior, multiple ranged rogues with maybe a support mage is the best way to go. Also, 1 fight doesn't make or break a class.

I just don't see how a sword and board warrior's damage is comparable to a 2H warrior's damage when you factor in AoE(which is the right thing to do, and that's what I did). I might bump their damage up to Average, but that's it.

[SlamminHams]

Sorry to derail this slightly, as it's a great thread so far. But the 2H Warrior talent Sunder works with both SnS and 2H weapons. I figure that'll bump SnS a bit up, w/ an AA application of Stagger.

[rumination888]

sevenplusone wrote...

It's not a reason for listing them as tier 1, rather just an example of how powerful 2 ranged rogues and 2H warriors are when combined.

I would believe it. I'm almost at 6min with Merrill, Varric, Archer Hawke, and Fenris. Spam seems to be the way to go for me so far, making sure CDs are up for dormant phases.

Starting to think it's just a mage friendly fight as when I tried it with Merrill, Varric, Isabela, and Mage Hawke, I would have probably got it in 4 if I had the patience to position properly. It was really late and I did it for ****s n giggles, but then again the 4 minutes is a complete guess based off 2 phases, so I have to try it out to see if it's legit or not. That was pretty much spam too.

Anyway, you have to go out of your way to kill him quick. If you want to stick with mostly 1 really strong, easy party throughout the game, then 2H warrior, multiple ranged rogues with maybe a support mage is the best way to go. Also, 1 fight doesn't make or break a class.

I just don't see how a sword and board warrior's damage is comparable to a 2H warrior's damage when you factor in AoE(which is the right thing to do, and that's what I did). I might bump their damage up to Average, but that's it.

I never went out of my way to spec for any particular fight with my shield warrior, but I inadvertedly ended up killing the Rock Wraith quickly regardless(would've killed it a lot faster if I actually used a lyrium pot, but I wasn't going for a speed kill), and i've been having an easy time throughout Nightmare so far. Again, I think you're mistaking the capabilities of a two-handed warrior with the capabilities of Vanguard/Reaver.

And if you factor in AoE because "its the right thing to do", then you need to factor in CCC. Both are situational.

[Parrk]

Archer's Lance and Assassinate each do 600% versus brittle targets. Those abilities have substantial CD's. The notion that setting this up is not worth it is ludicrous.

Winter's grasp has a decent chance to make even bosses brittle. I do not see how you can thumb your nose at the potential for a 25,000+ point assassinate.

[sevenplusone]

Parrk wrote...

Archer's Lance and Assassinate each do 600% versus brittle targets. Those abilities have substantial CD's. The notion that setting this up is not worth it is ludicrous.

Winter's grasp has a decent chance to make even bosses brittle. I do not see how you can thumb your nose at the potential for a 25,000+ point assassinate.

I keep hearing this, but I haven't been able to make a single boss brittle on Nightmare. So I'm just going to assume that you're not playing on Nightmare, or there's a a bug floating around. I think I sat spamming like 6 different bosses, on different saves, for 4 hours(exaggeration, but a long time), and not once did brittle from Winter's Grasp or Petrify work.

[rumination888]

sevenplusone wrote...

Parrk wrote...

Archer's Lance and Assassinate each do 600% versus brittle targets. Those abilities have substantial CD's. The notion that setting this up is not worth it is ludicrous.

Winter's grasp has a decent chance to make even bosses brittle. I do not see how you can thumb your nose at the potential for a 25,000+ point assassinate.

I keep hearing this, but I haven't been able to make a single boss brittle on Nightmare. So I'm just going to assume that you're not playing on Nightmare, or there's a a bug floating around. I think I sat spamming like 6 different bosses, on different saves, for 4 hours(exaggeration, but a long time), and not once did brittle from Winter's Grasp or Petrify work.

I have to agree here. I haven't been able to land Brittle on any boss. I believe the reason is because the Brittle condition relies on the enemy being frozen/paralyzed. Any enemy immune to being frozen/paralyzed will also be immune to Brittle. This is precisely the reason why I'm largely unimpressed by two-handers(and rogue archers and assassin spec... well, okay, I'm actually impressed by the assassin spec, just not the assassinate ability) despite their overwhelming praise on these forums.

Stagger is different. As I mentioned earlier, Shield Bash has a 100% chance to stagger bosses. This makes Chain Lightning, Hemorrhage, Explosive Strike, and Vendetta extremely powerful, and it helps Crushing Prison, too.(stagger is practically a requirement to make Crushing Prison worthwhile in Nightmare).

For some reason I could never get Cleave or Sunder to Stagger a boss. I believe all bosses reduce the chance by -40%. This assumption is based off the -40% reduction against the player's Defense score against bosses. Any dev care to comment on this issue?

Disorient from Fatiguing Fog seems to work against every enemy I've used it on so far, but this requires you to be at level 13 - well passed Act 1 by then. You can get Disorient from Pinning Shot earlier, but it suffers the same problem as Petrify/Winter's Grasp... enemies need to be pinned for it to disorient, and bosses are immune to that - another reason why I'm unimpressed by rogue archers.

Modifié par rumination888, 17 mars 2011 - 02:51 .

[DrekorSilverfang]

I don't think we are playing the same game...

2H warrior survivability below average? Damage mages "falling short" of other classes? Sword and board warriors damage below average?

This is laughable.

[sevenplusone]

rumination888 wrote...

sevenplusone wrote...

Parrk wrote...

Archer's
Lance and Assassinate each do 600% versus brittle targets. Those
abilities have substantial CD's. The notion that setting this up is not
worth it is ludicrous.

Winter's grasp has a decent chance to
make even bosses brittle. I do not see how you can thumb your nose at
the potential for a 25,000+ point assassinate.

I keep
hearing this, but I haven't been able to make a single boss brittle on
Nightmare. So I'm just going to assume that you're not playing on
Nightmare, or there's a a bug floating around. I think I sat spamming
like 6 different bosses, on different saves, for 4 hours(exaggeration,
but a long time), and not once did brittle from Winter's Grasp or
Petrify work.

I have to agree here. I haven't been
able to land Brittle on any boss. I believe the reason is because the
Brittle condition relies on the enemy being frozen/paralyzed. Any enemy
immune to being frozen/paralyzed will also be immune to Brittle. This
is precisely the reason why I'm largely unimpressed by two-handers(and
rogue archers and assassin spec... well, okay, I'm actually impressed
by the assassin spec, just not the assassinate ability) despite their
overwhelming praise on these forums.

Stagger is different. As I
mentioned earlier, Shield Bash has a 100% chance to stagger bosses.
This makes Chain Lightning, Hemorrhage, Explosive Strike, and Vendetta
extremely powerful, and it helps Crushing Prison, too.(stagger is
practically a requirement to make Crushing Prison worthwhile in
Nightmare).

For some reason I could never get Cleave or Sunder
to Stagger a boss. I believe all bosses reduce the chance by -40%. This
assumption is based off the -40% reduction against the player's Defense
score against bosses. Any dev care to comment on this issue?

Disorient
from Fatiguing Fog seems to work against every enemy I've used it on so
far, but this requires you to be at level 13 - well passed Act 1 by
then. You can get Disorient from Pinning Shot earlier, but it suffers
the same problem as Petrify/Winter's Grasp... enemies need to be pinned
for it to disorient, and bosses are immune to that - another reason why
I'm unimpressed by rogue archers.

After reading through your arguments, I went and tried 3 different sword and board builds for around 3 hours, and they worked really well. I decided to take a different approach to my tier list, so some classes moved up and some moved down.

[Graunt]

rumination888 wrote...

sevenplusone wrote...

Explain? When compared to everyone else, except for support mages, their damage is lackluster.

Their single-target auto-attack DPS is the exact same as a two-hander's DPS. Their abilities have the same damage potential as two-handers except they use Disorient instead of Brittle. This alone actually makes their abilities dish out more single-target damage than a 2-handed warrior.

Now, if you look at what causes Brittle vs. what causes Disorient, you'll notice that the highest chance to Brittle is connected with the spell that also increases enemy damage resistance by 20% - Petrify.
Disorient, on the otherhand, can be gained from Fatiguing Fog(100% chance), which also Disorients enemies in a large radius - perfect for setting up Scatter's frontal AoE.

In terms of supporting your other teammates through CCC, Shield Bash has a 100% chance to stagger enemies - including bosses. I can see why you'd make the statement that CCC is more trouble than its worth if you rated two-handers so highly.

Don't take this the wrong way, I'm not saying shields are better than two-handers. Two-handers still have the advantage of massive AoE. That doesn't make them better or worse, it just makes them different.

Mighty Blow would like to have a word with you about single target damage.  I also don't see the point in trying to buff Scatter when the only skill even needed from the SnS tree is Imp Shield bash, and Mages abusing Stagger > anything an SnS gains from disorient.  I agree with you, but not for the same reasons.  I think SnS has much more of a control on when and where you Stagger and the one-handed weapon also swings faster, so with Claymore up, it's pretty easy to get a stagger on practically anything within 1-3 seconds.

I just don't see how a sword and board warrior's damage is
comparable to a 2H warrior's damage when you factor in AoE(which is the
right thing to do, and that's what I did). I might bump their damage up
to Average, but that's it.

It's not, but the fact that it can get you 2800+ damage Hemorrhages to multiple enemies whenever you want means it's a lot more controlled.  

(stagger is practically a requirement to make Crushing Prison worthwhile in Nightmare).

I have yet to see a point in Paralyzing Prison.  The damage, even on a staggered enemy is simply pathetic.  It pretty much requires a stagger just to get it to do it's base damage since it seems to be a "physical" attack that's mitigated by armor.  That whole tree in general is trash outside of the 100% shield.

For some reason I could never get Cleave or Sunder to Stagger a boss.

Read the description on Claymore and Sunder again...very carefully.  It's two of the few tooltips Bioware wasn't completely vague with and why Shield Bash is your "go to" stagger ability on bosses.  Bosses have a particular rank...

Modifié par Graunt, 17 mars 2011 - 11:41 .

[rumination888]

Graunt wrote...
<snip>

Assault would like a word with you about single target damage. The fact that you think only Imp. Shield Bash is worth it in the SnS tree tells me you're making the same mistake that the majority of people make in regards to two-handed warriors - they mistake the effectiveness of two-handers with the effectiveness of Vanguard/Reaver.

The tooltip on Petrify doesn't mention that it requires the enemy to be Paralyzed for Brittle to work. You'd be naive to expect tooltips to be 100% specific in any game.

Modifié par rumination888, 18 mars 2011 - 12:28 .