42 réponses à ce sujet

[Marionetten]

Damage Mages

Damage: Above average

Have you tried using Chain Lighting on a staggered group? How about Stonefist on a disoriented target? Their damage potential is exceedingly high. Especially when it comes to dealing with groups. And mages really don't have poor survivability with Rock Armor and Unshakable. Quite the opposite.

Modifié par Marionetten, 18 mars 2011 - 12:37 .

[sevenplusone]

Marionetten wrote...

Damage Mages

Damage: Above average

Have you tried using Chain Lighting on a staggered group? How about Stonefist on a disoriented target? Their damage potential is exceedingly high. Especially when it comes to dealing with groups. And mages really don't have poor survivability with Rock Armor and Unshakable. Quite the opposite.

Mage damage is too situational to be considered more than above average. Most "trash" mob groups are dying in under 10 seconds with 2 ranged rogues.

And I think people are confusing my definitions of survivability and durability. Mages are very durable with Rock Armor and Unshakeable, but they don't have the survivabilty of a rogue who has a bunch of tricks to escape(survivability). Rogues have stealth, go into shadow they have decoy and the -100 threat thing, they can bounce threat off of each other, redirect it to your tank, and even assasinate is good for escaping.

[Trapslick]

sevenplusone wrote...

Marionetten wrote...

Damage Mages

Damage: Above average

Have you tried using Chain Lighting on a staggered group? How about Stonefist on a disoriented target? Their damage potential is exceedingly high. Especially when it comes to dealing with groups. And mages really don't have poor survivability with Rock Armor and Unshakable. Quite the opposite.

Mage damage is too situational to be considered more than above average. Most "trash" mob groups are dying in under 10 seconds with 2 ranged rogues.

And I think people are confusing my definitions of survivability and durability. Mages are very durable with Rock Armor and Unshakeable, but they don't have the survivabilty of a rogue who has a bunch of tricks to escape(survivability). Rogues have stealth, go into shadow they have decoy and the -100 threat thing, they can bounce threat off of each other, redirect it to your tank, and even assasinate is good for escaping.

i don't agree that not having a mage is better than having a mage, but i do agree that you can't have a truely solid party without a rouge... the creation tree combined with heals is honestly a powerful thing to have.
rouge's are the best overall class in my opinion, but a healthy mix is best.

just throwing it out there

[Marionetten]

sevenplusone wrote...

Mage damage is too situational to be considered more than above average. Most "trash" mob groups are dying in under 10 seconds with 2 ranged rogues.

How is that situational? Stagger is not difficult to trigger and it's not as if rogues are capable of throwing out comparable damage against large groups. Yes, they do great damage against single targets but they are not better at disposing of large groups than a mage with Chain Lighting and Hemorrhage. Friendly fire friendly spells, I might add.

And it doesn't just apply to trash mobs. A well timed Chain Lighting can almost instagib several lieutenants. I think you're severely underestimating mages here. Just look at how they compare to melee rogues according to your ranking. I would never take another rogue over my Primal mage. I would never take a melee rogue at all.

sevenplusone wrote...

And I think people are confusing my definitions of survivability and durability. Mages are very durable with Rock Armor and Unshakeable, but they don't have the survivabilty of a rogue who has a bunch of tricks to escape(survivability). Rogues have stealth, go into shadow they have decoy and the -100 threat thing, they can bounce threat off of each other, redirect it to your tank, and even assasinate is good for escaping.

Fair enough.

Modifié par Marionetten, 18 mars 2011 - 01:23 .

[sevenplusone]

Marionetten wrote...

sevenplusone wrote...

Mage damage is too situational to be considered more than above average. Most "trash" mob groups are dying in under 10 seconds with 2 ranged rogues.

How is that situational? Stagger is not difficult to trigger and it's not as if rogues are capable of throwing out comparable damage against large groups. Yes, they do great damage against single targets but they are not better at disposing of large groups than a mage with Chain Lighting and Hemorrhage. Friendly fire friendly spells, I might add.

And it doesn't just apply to trash mobs. A well timed Chain Lighting can almost instagib several lieutenants. I think you're severely underestimating mages here. Just look at how they compare to melee rogues according to your ranking. I would never take another rogue over my Primal mage. I would never take a melee rogue at all.

sevenplusone wrote...

And I think people are confusing my definitions of survivability and durability. Mages are very durable with Rock Armor and Unshakeable, but they don't have the survivabilty of a rogue who has a bunch of tricks to escape(survivability). Rogues have stealth, go into shadow they have decoy and the -100 threat thing, they can bounce threat off of each other, redirect it to your tank, and even assasinate is good for escaping.

Fair enough.

I would never take a DW rogue over a mage either in my typical setup, range is just too good in this game and mage utility from passive CC from damage skills is really strong.

Here's how I feel about it. Ranged rogue single target is so strong, by the time you get enough mobs staggered and cast chain lightning, 2 auto kill arrows have killed 4 mobs, one assassinate has killed another, and all that's left are critters that die in 1 hit. An assassin pops out, pinning shotx2 and crits gib him as soon as he shows himself.

I don't think the mage placement will change, but I may give them a better grade in damage. It's just that comparing their damage compared to a rogue's(their "rival" I guess), it's not anywhere near as good. DW rogue damage really is retarded good, but in their current state, their amazing damage is eclipsed by the cons of their playstyle and being a melee version of ranged rogues.

[Graunt]

rumination888 wrote...

Graunt wrote...
<snip>

Assault would like a word with you about single target damage. The fact that you think only Imp. Shield Bash is worth it in the SnS tree tells me you're making the same mistake that the majority of people make in regards to two-handed warriors - they mistake the effectiveness of two-handers with the effectiveness of Vanguard/Reaver.

The tooltip on Petrify doesn't mention that it requires the enemy to be Paralyzed for Brittle to work. You'd be naive to expect tooltips to be 100% specific in any game.

I'm not sure what brittle has to do with anything.  You don't need a target to be brittle for Mighty Blow to still be better than any of the single target abilities from SnS damage wise.  Assault has a lower base damage for the same cost and it's upgrade modifier (the +5) doesn't scale as good as Mighty Blow's upgrade and on top of that, for it to actually get the good damage requires a Rogue wasting skill points and stamina on a single target Warrior ability.  So you need a total of six skill points just to make it "better".  No thanks.  I'd rather use SnS to buff other classes that get a much larger benefit than building a group to cater to a build that just cannot output the same damage.  That's just ass backwards.

Here's how I feel about it. Ranged rogue single target is so strong, by the time you get enough mobs staggered and cast chain lightning, 2 auto  kill arrows have killed 4 mobs, one assassinate has killed another, and all that's left are critters that die in 1 hit. An assassin pops out, pinning shotx2 and crits gib him as soon as he shows himself.

Yeah, except theorycrafting doesn't always work in real time.  Have you even played Force yet?  A Primal/Force/Blood with a Creation/Primal is just disgusting.  Force can literally pin down 4-10 enemies and both Mages can then cast Tempest while the Warrior Shield Bashes 1-2 and then Claymore hits another 2-3 within just a few seconds.  I'd like to see two Rogues do what Mages can do on the double Assassin docks quest without having to constantly stealth or kite.

Archers no doubt have the best (ease of use) single target damage in the game, but they fail hardcore at trash waves.

Modifié par Graunt, 18 mars 2011 - 06:46 .

[Rehwyn]

Regarding dual-weapon rogues, if we're talking early game or companions, I'd agree that they're pretty much at the bottom of my list. Before they get a good set of abilities (early game) they can't do much and the AI is really bad at keeping a DW rogue alive and doing damage. Archery rogues have an advantage in this because you can just park you companion somewhere relatively safe and let them pewpew (this is why I pretty much never use Isabela).

If the DW rogue is Hawke, it's a bit different story. Early game was a bit rough, but by the middle of Act 2 I was really starting to put out some significant damage. In Act 3 I pretty much looked at something and it died (unless Fenris happened to own me with a Scythe+WW combo ~_~). And I'm not just referring to a Brittle+Assassinate combo. Normal assassinates were in the ~3.5-5k range per dagger (more with debuffs) and auto-attacks crit for 250-400 damage with a 75% chance, 100% if flanking. And a good player has the.. "finesse" needed to keep a DW rogue alive and doing damage.

I'm not saying archery rogues are bad, just saying that I think you undervalued a DW rogue (unless you're strictly referring to companions).

Modifié par Rehwyn, 18 mars 2011 - 07:03 .

[rumination888]

Graunt wrote...

I'm not sure what brittle has to do with anything.  You don't need a target to be brittle for Mighty Blow to still be better than any of the single target abilities from SnS damage wise.  Assault has a lower base damage for the same cost and it's upgrade modifier (the +5) doesn't scale as good as Mighty Blow's upgrade and on top of that, for it to actually get the good damage requires a Rogue wasting skill points and stamina on a single target Warrior ability.  So you need a total of six skill points just to make it "better".  No thanks.  I'd rather use SnS to buff other classes that get a much larger benefit than building a group to cater to a build that just cannot output the same damage.  That's just ass backwards.

Yea... now I know you have no idea what you're talking about. Let me guess... you have Aveline equipped with the craptastic Fadeshear sword and are basing your opinion on that? Am i right?

Assault's scaling is HIGHER than the scaling on Mighty Blow, and the scaling on its upgrade is HIGHER than Mighty Blow's upgrade. Assault hits 3x, and so its upgrade reflects 1/3rd of the actual damage. Scatter and Mighty Blow both do equivelent damage as long as your weapon has the same DPS. And Assault does more than the both of them.

[sevenplusone]

Rehwyn wrote...

Regarding dual-weapon rogues, if we're talking early game or companions, I'd agree that they're pretty much at the bottom of my list. Before they get a good set of abilities (early game) they can't do much and the AI is really bad at keeping a DW rogue alive and doing damage. Archery rogues have an advantage in this because you can just park you companion somewhere relatively safe and let them pewpew (this is why I pretty much never use Isabela).

If the DW rogue is Hawke, it's a bit different story. Early game was a bit rough, but by the middle of Act 2 I was really starting to put out some significant damage. In Act 3 I pretty much looked at something and it died (unless Fenris happened to own me with a Scythe+WW combo ~_~). And I'm not just referring to a Brittle+Assassinate combo. Normal assassinates were in the ~3.5-5k range per dagger (more with debuffs) and auto-attacks crit for 250-400 damage with a 75% chance, 100% if flanking. And a good player has the.. "finesse" needed to keep a DW rogue alive and doing damage.

I'm not saying archery rogues are bad, just saying that I think you undervalued a DW rogue (unless you're strictly referring to companions).

Doesn't really matter if it's Hawke or Isabela.

A huge reason as to why they're so low, is because like you said, it takes half of the game to get them going. Whereas a ranged rogue is extremely strong all game long. The numbers you're showing are the exact same numbers a ranged rogue can easily pull. Ranged rogues do the DW rogues job exactly the same, but from a distance(thus, safer), and like I said, they're strong all game long - not just half of it. Not to mention making a DW rogue work takes a lot more effort than making a ranged rogue work.

There's just 0 reason to run a DW rogue over a ranged one.

[Rehwyn]

I'm not sure what build or items your using as Archery, but just to test I loaded up my rogue right before the end and switched to Archery. The damage is still definitely great, but it's not the same as DW Rogue. I compared both Absolution and Jackal's Longbow to my DW daggers.

Listed DPS with bow = 149 DPS
Listed DPS with DW daggers = 204 DPS

Both had roughly the same crit chance, damage, and attack speed %.

Assassinate does pretty much the same damage... except it only hits ONCE. A DW Rogue hits two times with Assassinate, so does twice the damage. On weaklings it might not matter because it's a one-hit kill anyways, but on bosses it is a significant chunk of damage difference, which is where that damage matters anyways.

So yes, in my experience DW Rogue does higher sustained DPS than Archery, *if* you're good at rapidly changing targets and staying alive (which isn't terribly hard late-game, unless you're running a 2H warrior). However, it's easier to do that damage as Archery. I suppose it boils down to how much effort you want to put in or which you enjoy more.

I suppose one could always enjoy the best of both worlds too... run Archery early on until you get enough abilities to make DW work well and then respec.

[TG-Nalfen]

Tier 4:[/b] DW Rogues are outclassed in every single facet of the game by every other damage dealer. They have a cool niche on Rock Wraith fight where you can get him down in 4 minutes 15 seconds as tested by me today, but that's about all they have going for them.

I disagree wholeheartedly with the above statement.

DW rogues have the highest, by a very large gap, damage in the game. they require a lot more micro management than 2h Warriors and Mages though but if you do it right the results are there.

They end a fight before it even begins; i changed a lot of hard fights into trivial ones because the boss died in the first 5 sec of the fight.

For example: www.the-guardians.org/photo/var/albums/da2/2011-03-17_00019.jpg 
Damage: www.the-guardians.org/photo/var/albums/da2/2011-03-17_00020.jpg

Modifié par TG-Nalfen, 18 mars 2011 - 05:22 .

[Rehwyn]

TG-Nalfen wrote...

I disagree wholeheartedly with the above statement.

DW rogues have the highest, by a very large gap, damage in the game. they require a lot more micro management than 2h Warriors and Mages though but if you do it right the results are there.

They end a fight before it even begins; i changed a lot of hard fights into trivial ones because the boss died in the first 5 sec of the fight.

For example: www.the-guardians.org/photo/var/albums/da2/2011-03-17_00019.jpg 
Damage: www.the-guardians.org/photo/var/albums/da2/2011-03-17_00020.jpg

Out of curiosity, what gear are you using to get your stats so high? I thought I had pretty good stats, but yours are noticeably higher.

[TG-Nalfen]

Rehwyn wrote...

TG-Nalfen wrote...

I disagree wholeheartedly with the above statement.

DW rogues have the highest, by a very large gap, damage in the game. they require a lot more micro management than 2h Warriors and Mages though but if you do it right the results are there.

They end a fight before it even begins; i changed a lot of hard fights into trivial ones because the boss died in the first 5 sec of the fight.

For example: www.the-guardians.org/photo/var/albums/da2/2011-03-17_00019.jpg 
Damage: www.the-guardians.org/photo/var/albums/da2/2011-03-17_00020.jpg

Out of curiosity, what gear are you using to get your stats so high? I thought I had pretty good stats, but yours are noticeably higher.

www.the-guardians.org/photo/var/albums/da2/gear.jpg

Ive gotten plenty of stats boost from various quests (and dealing with demons ) also never used a Maker's Sight Potion (it doesn't give back bonus stats from items, potions and quests).

Modifié par TG-Nalfen, 18 mars 2011 - 05:57 .

[Rehwyn]

TG-Nalfen wrote...

Rehwyn wrote...

TG-Nalfen wrote...

I disagree wholeheartedly with the above statement.

DW rogues have the highest, by a very large gap, damage in the game. they require a lot more micro management than 2h Warriors and Mages though but if you do it right the results are there.

They end a fight before it even begins; i changed a lot of hard fights into trivial ones because the boss died in the first 5 sec of the fight.

For example: www.the-guardians.org/photo/var/albums/da2/2011-03-17_00019.jpg 
Damage: www.the-guardians.org/photo/var/albums/da2/2011-03-17_00020.jpg

Out of curiosity, what gear are you using to get your stats so high? I thought I had pretty good stats, but yours are noticeably higher.

www.the-guardians.org/photo/var/albums/da2/gear.jpg

Ive gotten plenty of stats boost from various quests (and dealing with
demons ) also never used a Maker's Sight Potion (it doesn't give back
bonus stats from items, potions and quests).

Whoa, I never found that +7 attributes rune. That'd be the difference. o.O

Also didn't know that you didn't get stat bonuses back...

Thanks!

Modifié par Rehwyn, 18 mars 2011 - 06:00 .

[TG-Nalfen]

Its in Act III Sundermount in a small ruin close to the Varterral caves (pile of bones)

[SlamminHams]

Graunt wrote...

I'm not sure what brittle has to do with anything.  You don't need a target to be brittle for Mighty Blow to still be better than any of the single target abilities from SnS damage wise.  Assault has a lower base damage for the same cost and it's upgrade modifier (the +5) doesn't scale as good as Mighty Blow's upgrade

False.  Assault is the most damaging ability in the Warriors arsenal prior to CCCs..  When upgraded, Assault does 3 hits at 2.5x physical damage, which is the same as a singular hit at 7.5x damage.  Might Blow with the Killer Blow upgrade does 5.333x physical damage.  For informal purposes, Scythe is 3x (4.5x w/ Reaper), Whirlwind is 3x (4x w/ Cyclone), Shield Slam is 1.75x, and Scatter is 4x (6x w/ Disperse).  Scatter will also do more damage than Scythe or Whirlwind.  I'm pretty sure 1H weapons have more DPS than 2H weapons as well (not including Fadeshear, which obviously will eventually).

However.  Mighty Blow (with 2 upgrades) will do more damage, 16x physical damage to a Brittle target whereas Assault (with 1 upgrade) will do 15x physical damage to a Disorient target.

and on top of that, for it to actually get the good damage requires a Rogue wasting skill points and stamina on a single target Warrior ability.

All SnS abilities are multi-target, just the area of effect is smaller than 2H abilities.  And Fatiguing Fog is so far from a waste it's not funny.

I'd rather use SnS to buff other classes that get a much larger benefit than building a group to cater to a build that just cannot output the same damage.  That's just ass backwards.

Except an SnS Hawke can buff and DPS just as well as a 2H Hawke, if not better.

As an aside, I think a DPS Aveline would be terrible.  Only Hawke should DPS w/ a Sword and Board.

Modifié par SlamminHams, 18 mars 2011 - 06:08 .

[Rehwyn]

TG-Nalfen wrote...

Its in Act III Sundermount in a small ruin close to the Varterral caves (pile of bones)

Yeah, I loaded an earlier save and went back to grab it. Apparently I just ran right by it the first time. ~_~

[sevenplusone]

TG-Nalfen wrote...

Tier 4:[/b] DW Rogues are outclassed in every single facet of the game by every other damage dealer. They have a cool niche on Rock Wraith fight where you can get him down in 4 minutes 15 seconds as tested by me today, but that's about all they have going for them.

I disagree wholeheartedly with the above statement.

DW rogues have the highest, by a very large gap, damage in the game. they require a lot more micro management than 2h Warriors and Mages though but if you do it right the results are there.

They end a fight before it even begins; i changed a lot of hard fights into trivial ones because the boss died in the first 5 sec of the fight.

For example: www.the-guardians.org/photo/var/albums/da2/2011-03-17_00019.jpg 
Damage: www.the-guardians.org/photo/var/albums/da2/2011-03-17_00020.jpg

It has been said already, but it takes a vast majority of the game to get them even close to an archer's level. Changing a lot of hard fights into trivial ones is something a good player can do with everyone naked.

Showing me a SS of big numbers on a fully farmed DW rogue doesn't prove much. If it shows anything, it shows that it takes a rogue 25 levels and a ton of farm to start to shine.