50 réponses à ce sujet

[Dr. Nexas]

Shavon wrote...

Fenris is the biggest douche in this game. You call Anders whiny? He has reasons, whether you agree with him or not, and they go beyond just him. They are related to a cause.

Fenris just whines about his past, and how hurt he is, blah, blah, blah, when he just needs to get over it. I did his personal quest in Act 3, and gained rivalry points for making him spare his sister's life. Unlike Shepard, Hawke is not their to solve everyone's problems, but my goody-two-shoes Hawke won't let any party member take a life because he can't get over himself.

Come to think of it, Anders is a bit of an ass, too, but some things went beyond his control.

At least you can stop Fenris from committing murder 

[Ryzaki]

graciegrace wrote...

Shavon wrote...

Fenris is the biggest douche in this game. You call Anders whiny? He has reasons, whether you agree with him or not, and they go beyond just him. They are related to a cause.

Fenris just whines about his past, and how hurt he is, blah, blah, blah, when he just needs to get over it. I did his personal quest in Act 3, and gained rivalry points for making him spare his sister's life. Unlike Shepard, Hawke is not their to solve everyone's problems, but my goody-two-shoes Hawke won't let any party member take a life because he can't get over himself.

Come to think of it, Anders is a bit of an ass, too, but some things went beyond his control.

Yes, because everyone can just get over years of being a slave, that's something that's so easy to get over.  Black people should just forget about being slaves because it wasn't a big deal they should just get over it.

Yeah and black people should hate all white people and other black people for being the same race as those who enslaved them.

Oh wait. 

[graciegrace]

Ryzaki wrote...

graciegrace wrote...

Shavon wrote...

Fenris is the biggest douche in this game. You call Anders whiny? He has reasons, whether you agree with him or not, and they go beyond just him. They are related to a cause.

Fenris just whines about his past, and how hurt he is, blah, blah, blah, when he just needs to get over it. I did his personal quest in Act 3, and gained rivalry points for making him spare his sister's life. Unlike Shepard, Hawke is not their to solve everyone's problems, but my goody-two-shoes Hawke won't let any party member take a life because he can't get over himself.

Come to think of it, Anders is a bit of an ass, too, but some things went beyond his control.

Yes, because everyone can just get over years of being a slave, that's something that's so easy to get over.  Black people should just forget about being slaves because it wasn't a big deal they should just get over it.

Yeah and black people should hate all white people and other black people for being the same race as those who enslaved them.

Oh wait. 

If you actually talk to Fenris, he doesn't say that all mages are bad, he's overly cautious about them is all.  Not a bad way to be considering how dangerous mages are.  DA2 did a fine job of legitimatizing Fenris's concerns about mages, nobody wants to see that however because they're all enamored with Anders' point of view

[Ryzaki]

graciegrace wrote...
If you actually talk to Fenris, he doesn't say that all mages are bad, he's overly cautious about them is all.  Not a bad way to be considering how dangerous mages are.  DA2 did a fine job of legitimatizing Fenris's concerns about mages, nobody wants to see that however because they're all enamored with Anders' point of view

He still thinks they should all be imprisoned. All of them including Bethany. Who has shown herself nothing like his Magisters. 

He thinks she should be imprisoned because of how she was born. That's nonsense He thinks she's a "viper in their midst" and a danger. She should be kept locked away to keep others "safe" *rolls eyes* 

And I'm not "enamored with Anders' point of view" Mages shouldn't be running around without training. They shouldn't be imprisoned and then abused by drug addicts either. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 mars 2011 - 07:43 .

[Anarya]

graciegrace wrote...

If you actually talk to Fenris, he doesn't say that all mages are bad, he's overly cautious about them is all.  Not a bad way to be considering how dangerous mages are.  DA2 did a fine job of legitimatizing Fenris's concerns about mages, nobody wants to see that however because they're all enamored with Anders' point of view

He doesn't think they're all bad but he takes a "guilty til proven innocent" view rather than the opposite. He views them all with suspicion unless they can demonstrate sufficient moral fiber in his eyes.

[Soull]

Link3521 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

That's a quirk of game-mechanics, really. It's like Fenris is honestly unaware of all you're doing to help mages and if he was aware and reacted to it, you'd much more likely be rivals or neutral towards each other.

 I know {smilie} felt a bit like cheating since I was metagaming but I capitalized on what we had in common and became good friends with him, making him realize that not all mages were bad.  

I don't think he's unaware I think he's just respecting who Hawke is. My Dad grew up in Madrid and loves bull fights. I'm a huge animals rights activist and hate the very idea of them. We clash often on our views but as long as he never invites me to go see one and I don't preach at him about it the discussions we have are always civil and respectful. The same goes for Fenris. He knows what you're doing but does not feel the need react to it because he understands who Hawke is just as Hawke understands who he is. This really shows through when...

SPOILER!

... your mom dies or when you side with the mages at the end. Respecting him enough to not rub it in his face all the time that you support mages meant that he cared enough about you to stand by your side when it really mattered.

[Sarah1281]

He still thinks they should all be imprisoned. All of them including Bethany. Who has shown herself nothing like his Magisters.

At first, yeah. But then you get:

Anders: You must know that the Templars are wrong.
Fenris: Must I? I see Templars trying to control what they have good reason to fear.
Anders: But they go too far.
Fenris: Talk to Hawke about her mother. Ask her who went "too far".
Anders: You can't hold all mages responsible for that!
Fenris: It doesn't take all mages to cause this. Only the weak ones.

Anders: Not all mages are weak.
Fenris: True. Bethany, for one, is not weak / Hawke, for one, is not weak. (If Hawke is a mage)
Anders: I notice you didn't mention me.
Fenris: No.
Anders: I'll prove to you that I'm not weak
Fenris: Prove it to yourself. You aren't fooling anyone else.

It seems like he trusts Bethany (or Hawke) to not use blood magic or become abominations but others haven't proven themselves to him so he thinks they need to be kept contained.

I don't think he's unaware I think he's just respecting who Hawke is.

I disagree. No one in your party gains or loses approval when they are not physically present. Let's take Anders as an example. Do you think he would just 'respect who Hawke is' and be grateful that he's not present while Hawke goes around acting like a templar and killing/recapturing all apostates she encounters? I think Anders would hate what's happening regardless and yet watch the fact he doesn't react to it in the slightest and you can still be his best friend if you leave him at home on these missions. It's not being pleased not to be involved and respecting Hawke's decisions. It's the fact that no companion at all has their friendship meter affected by what happens when they are not standing there.

And actually, Fenris will stand by you if you have maxed out his rivalry meter...which you can do by 'rubbing in his face all the time' that you are 100% pro-mage.

[Sherbet Lemon]

Ryzaki wrote...

graciegrace wrote...

Shavon wrote...

Fenris is the biggest douche in this game. You call Anders whiny? He has reasons, whether you agree with him or not, and they go beyond just him. They are related to a cause.

Fenris just whines about his past, and how hurt he is, blah, blah, blah, when he just needs to get over it. I did his personal quest in Act 3, and gained rivalry points for making him spare his sister's life. Unlike Shepard, Hawke is not their to solve everyone's problems, but my goody-two-shoes Hawke won't let any party member take a life because he can't get over himself.

Come to think of it, Anders is a bit of an ass, too, but some things went beyond his control.

Yes, because everyone can just get over years of being a slave, that's something that's so easy to get over.  Black people should just forget about being slaves because it wasn't a big deal they should just get over it.

Yeah and black people should hate all white people and other black people for being the same race as those who enslaved them.

Oh wait.

I'm not really a fan of that analogy as the plights of the elves and other groups can be applicable to the plight of many disaffected people.  Slavery in United States ended a long time ago, though the after effect is still tangible.  I think Fenris's bitterness comes from something much, much worse than being a slave.

I've been wanting to comment on this for awhile because I think it's important to consider that Fenris is NOT judging the actions of mages based on one bad master.  The Tevinter Imperium, the whole society is riddled with corrupt mages.  He talks a little about the Imperium and it sounds rather frightening.  The one banter he has with Anders is quite telling as he explains that unless you are willing to engage in utter ruthlessness then you will not attain the power needed to live the kind of life Ander's dreams of (I can't quite remember it word for word).  It's something that would be unrecognizable as far as what we've seen in both Dragon Age games.  To reiterate my point: it's not just some mages, it's the formulation of his entire society.

The environment in which we develop has overreaching effects, and formulates how we will interact with one another, and aids in establishing a worldview.  Society reifies what we believe, and constructs our reality.  To take this a step further, Fenris has no memory of being anything other than a slave.  No memory of family or friends, just the pain of his markings, the atrocities that he has had to commit and the abuse he's had to endure. In some ways, the construction of reality is his identity as he has nothing else to juxtapose that with, nothing good to combat those experiences.

Memory is something that comprises the whole of who we are, it reminds us of where we've been and connects us to who we are.  With nothing to anchor the bad with, all he's stuck with bitterness and hate.  The psychological impact of the cruelty he's witnessed is further exacerbated by his vacant memories.  his character then becomes a rather interesting look at the importance of memory in the formation of identity.

Do I think he can be a complete jerk at times? Yeah.  But I also think it comes from something more complex than he's just whiny, emo, blah, blah, blah.  But again, that's just my opinion and well, everyone's got one of those.

[Esoj16]

This discussion is getting a bit out of hand but if you ask me Fenris and Anders both have their reasons for their POVs and they're both legitimate reasons, the difference is that Fenris actually changes during the plot and sees by the end that not all mages are bad, Anders becomes a crazy terrorist either way no matter what you do so he's much more foolish and immature than Fenris, and I find it extremely hypocritical to expect Fenris to "get over" his past as an abused slave yet cheer Anders even after everything he does, we know from the Mage origin, Wynne and Anders himself that life in the Circle of Ferelden wasn't all horrible, I agree that improvements had to be made for the good of the mages but Anders completely screwed up any chance of a peaceful solution.

[Ryzaki]

Village Idiot wrote...
I'm not really a fan of that analogy as the plights of the elves and other groups can be applicable to the plight of many disaffected people.  Slavery in United States ended a long time ago, though the after effect is still tangible.  I think Fenris's bitterness comes from something much, much worse than being a slave.

Really? because seeing as his memory from everything else is GONE that's all it can be. His experience as a slave. 

I've been wanting to comment on this for awhile because I think it's important to consider that Fenris is NOT judging the actions of mages based on one bad master.  The Tevinter Imperium, the whole society is riddled with corrupt mages.  He talks a little about the Imperium and it sounds rather frightening.  The one banter he has with Anders is quite telling as he explains that unless you are willing to engage in utter ruthlessness then you will not attain the power needed to live the kind of life Ander's dreams of (I can't quite remember it word for word).  It's something that would be unrecognizable as far as what we've seen in both Dragon Age games.  To reiterate my point: it's not just some mages, it's the formulation of his entire society.

And Anders view comes from his whole life in Circles and living in Kirkwall. I didn't say ONE mage as how he based his experiences. He came from the bottom of the barrel. Of course he doesn't have a good view on mages. Nothing wrong with that. But saying he's oh so right while everyone else with similar experiences that point in the opposite (not you specifically) direction is just ugh to me. 

 

The environment in which we develop has overreaching effects, and formulates how we will interact with one another, and aids in establishing a worldview.  Society reifies what we believe, and constructs our reality.  To take this a step further, Fenris has no memory of being anything other than a slave.  No memory of family or friends, just the pain of his markings, the atrocities that he has had to commit and the abuse he's had to endure. In some ways, the construction of reality is his identity as he has nothing else to juxtapose that with, nothing good to combat those experiences.

I agree with this. Which is why his poistion makes sense to me. Doesn't make it any less frustrating though. 

Memory is something that comprises the whole of who we are, it reminds us of where we've been and connects us to who we are.  With nothing to anchor the bad with, all he's stuck with bitterness and hate.  The psychological impact of the cruelty he's witnessed is further exacerbated by his vacant memories.  his character then becomes a rather interesting look at the importance of memory in the formation of identity.

Do I think he can be a complete jerk at times? Yeah.  But I also think it comes from something more complex than he's just whiny, emo, blah, blah, blah.  But again, that's just my opinion and well, everyone's got one of those.

 

I know that of course. It's a running theme with all the characters. Its' not unique to Fenris in any way and I didn't say he was whiny, emo. But he is a bit of a judgemental ******. 

Then again so is 99% of people you meet in DA2. It's not a condemnation just an observation. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 mars 2011 - 10:38 .

[Ryzaki]

Sarah1281 wrote...   At first, yeah. But then you get:

Anders: You must know that the Templars are wrong.
Fenris: Must I? I see Templars trying to control what they have good reason to fear.
Anders: But they go too far.
Fenris: Talk to Hawke about her mother. Ask her who went "too far".
Anders: You can't hold all mages responsible for that!
Fenris: It doesn't take all mages to cause this. Only the weak ones.

Anders: Not all mages are weak.
Fenris: True. Bethany, for one, is not weak / Hawke, for one, is not weak. (If Hawke is a mage)
Anders: I notice you didn't mention me.
Fenris: No.
Anders: I'll prove to you that I'm not weak
Fenris: Prove it to yourself. You aren't fooling anyone else.

It seems like he trusts Bethany (or Hawke) to not use blood magic or become abominations but others haven't proven themselves to him so he thinks they need to be kept contained.

He deosn't ever say Beth shouldn't go to the Circle. He just seems aware that he can't force them into it and that she isn't weak. Saying someone isn't weak isn't saying someone shouldn't be imprisoned.  

I don't think he's unaware I think he's just respecting who Hawke is.

 

I disagree. No one in your party gains or loses approval when they are not physically present. Let's take Anders as an example. Do you think he would just 'respect who Hawke is' and be grateful that he's not present while Hawke goes around acting like a templar and killing/recapturing all apostates she encounters? I think Anders would hate what's happening regardless and yet watch the fact he doesn't react to it in the slightest and you can still be his best friend if you leave him at home on these missions. It's not being pleased not to be involved and respecting Hawke's decisions. It's the fact that no companion at all has their friendship meter affected by what happens when they are not standing there. 

And actually, Fenris will stand by you if you have maxed out his rivalry meter...which you can do by 'rubbing in his face all the time' that you are 100% pro-mage.

Uh...I never remember saying that so I'm very confused right now. I know he stands with you but that's out of respect for Hawke. He even mentions he can't believe he's defending these mages and shakes his head while saying Hawke leads him to strange places. 

You might want to name someone when you switch quotes like that....

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 mars 2011 - 10:42 .

[Esoj16]

Ryzaki wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...   At first, yeah. But then you get:

Anders: You must know that the Templars are wrong.
Fenris: Must I? I see Templars trying to control what they have good reason to fear.
Anders: But they go too far.
Fenris: Talk to Hawke about her mother. Ask her who went "too far".
Anders: You can't hold all mages responsible for that!
Fenris: It doesn't take all mages to cause this. Only the weak ones.

Anders: Not all mages are weak.
Fenris: True. Bethany, for one, is not weak / Hawke, for one, is not weak. (If Hawke is a mage)
Anders: I notice you didn't mention me.
Fenris: No.
Anders: I'll prove to you that I'm not weak
Fenris: Prove it to yourself. You aren't fooling anyone else.

It seems like he trusts Bethany (or Hawke) to not use blood magic or become abominations but others haven't proven themselves to him so he thinks they need to be kept contained.

He deosn't ever say Beth shouldn't go to the Circle. He just seems aware that he can't force them into it and that she isn't weak. Saying someone isn't weak isn't saying someone shouldn't be imprisoned.  

I don't think he's unaware I think he's just respecting who Hawke is.

 

I disagree. No one in your party gains or loses approval when they are not physically present. Let's take Anders as an example. Do you think he would just 'respect who Hawke is' and be grateful that he's not present while Hawke goes around acting like a templar and killing/recapturing all apostates she encounters? I think Anders would hate what's happening regardless and yet watch the fact he doesn't react to it in the slightest and you can still be his best friend if you leave him at home on these missions. It's not being pleased not to be involved and respecting Hawke's decisions. It's the fact that no companion at all has their friendship meter affected by what happens when they are not standing there. 

And actually, Fenris will stand by you if you have maxed out his rivalry meter...which you can do by 'rubbing in his face all the time' that you are 100% pro-mage.

Uh...I never remember saying that so I'm very confused right now. I know he stands with you but that's out of respect for Hawke. He even mentions he can't believe he's defending these mages and shakes his head while saying Hawke leads him to strange places. 

You might want to name someone when you switch quotes like that....

I think you're just looking for excuses to hate him  him not saying that Bethany shouldn't be imprisoned does not equal him saying she should be, he's basically admiting that not all mages are weak enough to allow themselves to be possesed by demons *cough*Anders*cough* ergo they're not all bad, but the risk of weak mages being possesed and killing innocent people is too high to risk giving them all freedom to do as they wish.

BTW I think when Fenris says weak mages he means mages that are weak willed, I'd say around 90% of them in Kirkwall, not necessarily them being too weak to cast powerful spells.

[berelinde]

They're both wrong. That's what makes having them in the party together so much fun.

[Sarah1281]

Ryzaki wrote...
Uh...I never remember saying that so I'm very confused right now.

I know you didn't say that, Soull did. I assumed that you would realize you didn't say that and Soull would realize that he DID so...

NOT Ryzaki wrote...
BTW I think when Fenris says weak mages he means mages that are weak willed, I'd say around 90% of them in Kirkwall, not necessarily them being too weak to cast powerful spells.

I agree. He mentioned Quentin in particular as being a weak mage and yet he was very powerful as far as magic went. He was just too weak not to succumb to blood magic and summoning demons. That's why Fenris called Anders weak, as well. Bethany and (possibly, the game never recognizes otherwise) mage!Hawke don't do this.

[Eveangaline]

graciegrace wrote...

"You sure about Fenris, he's more like a dog than a man"

Yeah, Anders is jealous

Woah, when does he say this? I'm romancing Fenris right now and I want to get this convo.

[Sherbet Lemon]

Ryzaki wrote...

Really? because seeing as his memory from everything else is GONE that's all it can be. His experience as a slave.

I should clarify this a bit.  The actual trauma of memory loss and of course the Imperium itself as an influence in the formation of identity. That's what I meant, I think.

And Anders view comes from his whole life in Circles and living in Kirkwall. I didn't say ONE mage as how he based his experiences. He came from the bottom of the barrel. Of course he doesn't have a good view on mages. Nothing wrong with that. But saying he's oh so right while everyone else with similar experiences that point in the opposite (not you specifically) direction is just ugh to me. 

Oh no, I didn't mean you specifcally.  I meant in general.  It's something I've seen repeated in general all over the forums and I wanted to address in general.  I would agree with this actually.  That's what makes the situation so interesting and complex.  Anders and Fenris are both interesting character thus making them fun to discuss.

I agree with this. Which is why his poistion makes sense to me. Doesn't make it any less frustrating though.

It was indeed frustrating for my mage Hawke who wanted to bang her head against the wall whenever she helped a fellow mage.  They worked it out though

I know that of course. It's a running theme with all the characters.
Its' not unique to Fenris in any way and I didn't say he was whiny, emo.
But he is a bit of a judgemental ******. 

Then again so is 99% of people you meet in DA2. It's not a condemnation just an observation.

 

Again, I apologize, I was speaking in general and not directly to you.  I should have made that clearer.  That's what I loved so much about this game, the companions seemed like real people.  Their interactions were portrayed quite convincingly which I think is the aim of most modern fiction (or at least should be).

Yeah, he can be a jerk for sure.  I just get a little annoyed (in general) when I see some surface comments about Fenris being emo and whiny.  I think he and Anders both are tragic figures who deserve some empathy.

EDIT: I am so FAIL at quote tags!

Modifié par Village Idiot, 17 mars 2011 - 11:06 .

[Ryzaki]

Link3521 wrote...
I think you're just looking for excuses to hate him  him not saying that Bethany shouldn't be imprisoned does not equal him saying she should be, he's basically admiting that not all mages are weak enough to allow themselves to be possesed by demons *cough*Anders*cough* ergo they're not all bad, but the risk of weak mages being possesed and killing innocent people is too high to risk giving them all freedom to do as they wish.

BTW I think when Fenris says weak mages he means mages that are weak willed, I'd say around 90% of them in Kirkwall, not necessarily them being too weak to cast powerful spells.

First I rather like Fen. I just admit the dude has some issues. 

I agree with him up to an extent. That extent is imprisoning them. 

And the reason 90 percent of them were in Kirkwall is because demons feed off misery and fear. And guess what the Kirkwall mages have in spades? :innocent:  Add that to the misery and fear from the past being stuck there nd you get a ripe pot for demons and abominations to feed in banquet. 

Edit: @Village Idiot: Ah sorry. I just see my name in a quote and assume the response (unless clarified) is meant for me. I agree with you mostly. 

My favorite part is how similar Anders and Fen are yet how opposite they are. 

And the fact that they dislike each other makes it more hilarious. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 mars 2011 - 11:08 .

[Soull]

Sarah1281 wrote...
I disagree. No one in your party gains or loses approval when they are not physically present. Let's take Anders as an example. Do you think he would just 'respect who Hawke is' and be grateful that he's not present while Hawke goes around acting like a templar and killing/recapturing all apostates she encounters? I think Anders would hate what's happening regardless and yet watch the fact he doesn't react to it in the slightest and you can still be his best friend if you leave him at home on these missions. It's not being pleased not to be involved and respecting Hawke's decisions. It's the fact that no companion at all has their friendship meter affected by what happens when they are not standing there.

And actually, Fenris will stand by you if you have maxed out his rivalry meter...which you can do by 'rubbing in his face all the time' that you are 100% pro-mage.

The problem I have with the statement above is that you use the term 'pleased not to be involved' which I never did.  No I don't think any of your party would be pleased just because you left them out of the loop to keep from hurting their feelings/clashing with their views/etc... but  i still stand by the respect that they have for you. Yes Fenris stayed for you with a full rivalry meter but I bet you also did all his quests. That says more about your character to him than the fact that you view mages differently than he does and are obnoxious about it. Rivalry does not mean he doesn't respect you.
As for Anders I never hunted/killed any apostates so I cannot comment on this.
So, yes if we are simply going by what happens physically in the game then you're right no one in your party gains or loses approval when you're not around... aannddd they also never eat, sleep or go to the bathroom;)

[Adynata]

First, to the original thread topic, I got a cut comment regarding Anders' jealousy when Zevran hit on my femHawke.
Second, I recall some party banter where Sebastion wanted to turn Anders in for his talk of rebellion but Fenris said that was all Sebastion and he wouldn't be part of it (guess he's no tattle).
Third, I just watched a youtube vid of the Casavir/Bishop fight since I never got that any of the times I played NWN2, eventhough I had high Casavir rep and low Bishop. Perhaps you don't get it if you LAN multiplayer? All I can say is Ew Bishop go away.

[Sarah1281]

@Soull: I was paraphrasing "Respecting him enough to not rub it in his face all the time that you support mages meant that he cared enough about you to stand by your side when it really mattered."

I don't see what not seeing party members eating/sleeping/going to the bathroom has to do with this. Your party members WILL gain friendship or rivalry if they are there. They will not if they are not there. It's as simple as that. You can cheat the system and have party members love you even if you fully embrace acts they would hate you for...if they were present for them. It's a quirk in the system and not an example of them respecting your decision to not 'rub it in their face.' That doesn't mean that they can't respect you. It just means that they do not react to what you do when they aren't there as part of game mechanics.

This is a quirk I don't see them changing, to be sure, as I'm sure everyone would be peeved if they got disapproval from at least someone for everything they did.

[MemeLeigh]

I thought it was interesting that Sebastian actually tells you that he doesn't think your pc should be with anders... due to anders being selfish and says something like in the end Anders won't choose you over something or whatever. it was kinda sweet.

[Maera Imrov]

Hilarious irony of Anders' thing about Fenris is the "Don't you want someone more openminded?"

And even before knowing the ending, I laughed at the hypocrisy. I kept thinking "Wut? Someone like you?" It was clear to me long before he blew a whole church of innocents that he was not rational about his cause, and certainly long past open-minded.

Fenris may not be either, but Anders implying that he is more open-minded than Fenris is hilarious. In a really pathetic way.

No, I don't 'hate' Anders. But I do hate what he let himself become. It broke my heart. It really did. And I didn't even play Awakening.