360 réponses à ce sujet

[moilami]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Derax wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

SirShreK wrote...
You indeed are Bioware target audience. I hope you are not in the majority.  

Yup, have been since Baldur's Gate.   I'm also in the CD Project target audience.  Watch out.

Since Baldurs Gate? I don't believe it   
For me battle is already so simplified (in comparison to the precursor) that it is something like skipping it.

Do you know what the most popular mod for BG II was? The flirt pack.

Do you know what the second most popular mod was? The 'skip dungeon' mod that sent you straight to the city instead of running around Irenicus' madhouse.

Have you ever heard of the skip Ostigar mod? The skip Fade mod? Have you ever read someone bemoan the utter tedium of the Deep Roads while another person pops in and talks about the fun of endlessly fighting in dark tunnels?

Ah, k, I see where this is leading.

Hopefully your new adventure games without epic dungeons but with bad combat sell well so you keep getting them.

Edit: By the way I might bet most popular mod for BG2 was Unfinished Business.

Modifié par moilami, 17 mars 2011 - 06:16 .

[Luckywallace]

A combat fast-forward would have made Alpha Protocol into a brilliant game.

The story was top-notch, the gameplay... not so much.

[Galad22]

wssiimikeyii wrote...

Galad22 wrote...

wssiimikeyii wrote...

What do you consider gameplay?

Combat is part of it. yes.

Other parts, conversations, stealth. Diplomacy.

There are many things you can make excellent quest that doesn't involve combat.

There is a quest in witcher where you make an autopsy with you doctor friend. And you can get it wrong. Brilliant quest.

But those are harder to make than just threw few mobs in front of you. Take some imagination as well.

Give me an example of a quest in DA2 that isn't just combat. What gameplay other than that is in this game?

There isn't one. Sort of my point!

[Addai]

Aesieru wrote...
Gameplay is ESSENTIALLY the game, the story and what not is added as flaire to make it more interesting, and while story is my main focus, I recognize this, though that doesn't mean I support less of a focus on story in games.

For you.  Once again let me introduce you to the idea that not everyone sees it that way.

I came to video RPGs out of MUSH roleplay, which was all about creating a world, creating characters and plots, i.e. making an interactive story.  That is what I play these games for.  The combat is about adding color to the story, not the other way around.  A wee part of me enjoys it for its own sake, but mostly I can take or leave.

I understand that there's more of a MUDder/ MMO take on RPG which is that the games are all about killing and loot, and the world and story provide a framework for that.  These are very popular, but are not the be all end all.

Modifié par Addai67, 17 mars 2011 - 06:26 .

[moilami]

Luckywallace wrote...

A combat fast-forward would have made Alpha Protocol into a brilliant game.

The story was top-notch, the gameplay... not so much.

*opens a can of baby food*

And what would be the best thing to do then? Improve the gameplay?

*spoonfeeds baby food*

Now good boy, open mouth, you can eat more if you try hard!

[moilami]

Addai67 wrote...

Aesieru wrote...
Gameplay is ESSENTIALLY the game, the story and what not is added as flaire to make it more interesting, and while story is my main focus, I recognize this, though that doesn't mean I support less of a focus on story in games.

For you.  Once again let me introduce you to the idea that not everyone sees it that way.

I came to video RPGs out of MUSH roleplay, which was all about creating a world, creating characters and plots, i.e. making an interactive story.  That is what I play these games for.  The combat is about adding color to the story, not the other way around.  A wee part of me enjoys it for its own sake, but mostly I can take or leave.

I understand that there's more of a MUDder/ MMO take on RPG which is that the games are all about killing and loot, and the world and story provide a framework for that.  These are very popular, but are not the be all end all.

I heard you can rent movies if you want to watch stories. Just sayin'. Novadays you can even go to Youtube and google machinisma or whatever it is if you fancy bad computer graphics.

[SirShreK]

My analysis is that RPG is now being defined as: CoD meets the Sims.

(Also think about sales my friends!)

[the_one_54321]

Addai67 wrote...
For you.  Once again let me introduce you to the idea that not everyone sees it that way.

No, this is not a subjective concept. "Game" has an objective defiition. An activity that does not fit this definition is not a game. We are actually not talking about what we think a game is, we are talking about what "game" is defined as.

As an aside, something can be a game and just be a not good game. There's lots of examples of things that make a game not good that have been brought up here. Lacking any story or inspiration for emotional investment, for one, can make a game very not good.

[Aesieru]

I understand Addai, but that is the idea of the game-design world..

[mesmerizedish]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
For you.  Once again let me introduce you to the idea that not everyone sees it that way.

No, this is not a subjective concept. "Game" has an objective defiition. An activity that does not fit this definition is not a game. We are actually not talking about what we think a game is, we are talking about what "game" is defined as.

Game:

A pursuit or activity with rules performed either alone or with others, for the purpose of entertainment.

This is a very broad definition. I don't suggest trying to argue that anything suggested in this thread would cause something to fall outside of it.

Modifié par ishmaeltheforsaken, 17 mars 2011 - 06:37 .

[moilami]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
For you.  Once again let me introduce you to the idea that not everyone sees it that way.

No, this is not a subjective concept. "Game" has an objective defiition. An activity that does not fit this definition is not a game. We are actually not talking about what we think a game is, we are talking about what "game" is defined as.

Game:

A pursuit or activity with rules performed either alone or with others, for the purpose of entertainment.

This is a very broad definition. I don't suggest trying to argue that anything suggested in this thread would cause something to fall outside of it.

What would be then rules in your adventure game? Pick anything of three dialogue choises untill it is game over 

[the_one_54321]

* "A game is a system in which players engage in an artificial conflict, defined by rules, that results in a quantifiable outcome." (Katie Salen and Eric Zimmerman)
* "A game is a form of art in which participants, termed players, make decisions in order to manage resources through game tokens in the pursuit of a goal." (Greg Costikyan)
* "A game is an activity among two or more independent decision-makers seeking to achieve their objectives in some limiting context." (Clark C. Abt)
* "At its most elementary level then we can define game as an exercise of voluntary control systems in which there is an opposition between forces, confined by a procedure and rules in order to produce a disequilibrial outcome." (Elliot Avedon and Brian Sutton-Smith)
* "A game is a form of play with goals and structure." (Kevin Maroney)
All sourced in the article.

Edit:
Actually, forget the word choice. The word "game" is irrelevant. Read what we are describing. It is called [insert made up word here]. And "video game" developers should be making only [insert made up word here]. After all, outside of Visual Novel developers, it's the only thing they've been making since they first started making the. We've been playing [insert made up word here] since we were very small children, some of us since we were adolescents, and some of us only very recently. But we recognize that the point of a [insert made up word here] is to deal with some kind of conflict in a challenging manner.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 17 mars 2011 - 06:49 .

[mesmerizedish]

the_one_54321 wrote...

* "A game is a system in which players engage in an artificial conflict, defined by rules, that results in a quantifiable outcome." (Katie Salen and Eric Zimmerman)
* "A game is a form of art in which participants, termed players, make decisions in order to manage resources through game tokens in the pursuit of a goal." (Greg Costikyan)
* "A game is an activity among two or more independent decision-makers seeking to achieve their objectives in some limiting context." (Clark C. Abt)
* "At its most elementary level then we can define game as an exercise of voluntary control systems in which there is an opposition between forces, confined by a procedure and rules in order to produce a disequilibrial outcome." (Elliot Avedon and Brian Sutton-Smith)
* "A game is a form of play with goals and structure." (Kevin Maroney)
All sourced in the article.

And a "skip combat" button would not make DAII not-a-game, even by those deliberately narrow definitions.

moilami wrote...

What would be then rules in your adventure game? Pick anything of three dialogue choises untill it is game over [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/pinched.png[/smilie]

I'd hope that BioWare would be more creative than that. But those are rules.

Modifié par ishmaeltheforsaken, 17 mars 2011 - 06:44 .

[Galad22]

Stanley Woo wrote...

If this is going to remain a "what is a game?" discussion, i'll have to ask y'all to head to the Off-Topic forum.

This is one of the most interesting conversations in these forums for days. And you're threatening to throw us out.

[moilami]

the_one_54321 wrote...

* "A game is a system in which players engage in an artificial conflict, defined by rules, that results in a quantifiable outcome." (Katie Salen and Eric Zimmerman)
* "A game is a form of art in which participants, termed players, make decisions in order to manage resources through game tokens in the pursuit of a goal." (Greg Costikyan)
* "A game is an activity among two or more independent decision-makers seeking to achieve their objectives in some limiting context." (Clark C. Abt)
* "At its most elementary level then we can define game as an exercise of voluntary control systems in which there is an opposition between forces, confined by a procedure and rules in order to produce a disequilibrial outcome." (Elliot Avedon and Brian Sutton-Smith)
* "A game is a form of play with goals and structure." (Kevin Maroney)
All sourced in the article.

Edit:
Actually, forget the word choice. The word "game" is irrelevant. Read what we are describing. It is called [insert made up word here]. And "video game" developers should be making only [insert made up word here]. We've been playing [insert made up word here] since we were very small children, some of us since we were adolescents, and some of us only very recently. But we recognize that the point of a [insert made up word here] is to deal with some kind of conflict in a challenging manner.

No, those definitions make it clear that life is not a game since it can be argued that there is no rules in life.

[mesmerizedish]

moilami wrote...

No, those definitions make it clear that life is not a game since it can be argued that there is no rules in life.

Sure there are. Gravity is a rule. Thermodynamics is a rule. Artifical laws are rules.

[88mphSlayer]

the_one_54321 wrote...

88mphSlayer wrote...
Heavy Rain would appeal to her

If there was ever a game where I actually wanted to skip the gameplay...
Seriously, loved the game but hated the 100% quick time. That is the wrong way to make any game ever.

hmmm i was the opposite

i loved the quicktime stuff but hated the story and characters

[mmmmmmPie]

Over the past ~80 years of womens equality I dont think the world has had to dumb down the voting process for them, or dumb down jobs in the workplace for them, etc.

No reason to dumb down games for them.  I would think women would find that insulting. 

Bioware "We dumbed this down for you."

Woman "You calling me stupid?"

Same with CoD audience/console gamers/casual gamers.  They're not dumb.  To dumb stuff down for them is insulting.

Bioware used to make intelligent games.  I think they'd be surprised how much better of a response they'd have received for DA2 had they not questioned our intelligence.

So now we look at DA2 and question theirs.

[Dave of Canada]

So now, instead of arguing "what is an RPG", you're all arguing "what is a game?"... based off an old interview?

*backs away slowly*

[Phonantiphon]

I still fail to see what the problem with the combat is. I think it's great.

[mesmerizedish]

Dave of Canada wrote...

So now, instead of arguing "what is an RPG", you're all arguing "what is a game?"... based off an old interview?

*backs away slowly*

Good God, learn how to party!

[Dave of Canada]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Good God, learn how to party!

I'm backing away into the party room.

[Russalka]

At least they are not bullying Ms. Hepler anymore.

[the_one_54321]

Dave of Canada wrote...
So now, instead of arguing "what is an RPG", you're all arguing "what is a game?"... based off an old interview?

*backs away slowly*

Nah, forget the word game. Read this instead:

the_one_54321 wrote...
Edit:
Actually, forget the word
choice. The word "game" is irrelevant. Read what we are describing. It is called [insert made up word here]. And "video game" developers should be making only [insert made up word here]. After all, outside of Visual Novel developers, it's the only thing they've been making since they first started making the. We've been playing [insert made up word here] since we were very small children, some of us since we were adolescents, and some of us only very recently. But we recognize that the point of a [insert made up word here] is to deal with some kind of conflict in a challenging manner.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 17 mars 2011 - 07:04 .

[moilami]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

moilami wrote...

No, those definitions make it clear that life is not a game since it can be argued that there is no rules in life.

Sure there are. Gravity is a rule. Thermodynamics is a rule. Artifical laws are rules.

No. They are just ways to describe how nature behaves. Nature nor anything else is not ruled by them.