360 réponses à ce sujet

[Vice-Admiral von Titsling]

Aesieru wrote...

The whole skipping combat in an RPG idea is something that outside of conversation choices, I am a bit baffled at the mere suggestion of.

Immersion goes out the door, eh?

Apparently immersion, like math and video games, is just too damn hard.

[Galad22]

LegendaryBlade wrote...

Galad22 wrote...

LegendaryBlade wrote...

They didn't have a skip/win button either, combat could be avoided by doing things to avoid it within the scope of the game. Not clicking 'skip this fight'

A skip button is essentially the same as a 'win fight' button, so at that point why even bother playing?

But if game is othervise very good and have enough story fighting isn't needed. So why add useless fighting with trash mobs and force people fight them in droves if game is good without them.

If getting around the fights should be implimented, it should be implimented within the games mechanics, not with an autowin button that coughs out experience and skips to the next section of the game. Not by doing away with entire aspects of the game like suggested in the article, where she said she hated managing inventory and essentially playing the ful scope of the game.

You know, older games used to have I Win buttons like that. What were they called? Oh yes, cheats. 

You are already allowed to skip conversations. Why is this allowed then? How is it any different.

My point is if you are allowed to skip conversations why not allow you to skip combat.

There is no difference between these two. Both are content, if other is skippable both should be.

Modifié par Galad22, 17 mars 2011 - 04:08 .

[Vice-Admiral von Titsling]

Galad22 wrote...
There is no difference between these two.

Incorrect.

[Galad22]

Vice-Admiral von Titsling wrote...

Galad22 wrote...
There is no difference between these two.

Incorrect.

Says who? You are not master of the universe.

[mesmerizedish]

Vice-Admiral von Titsling wrote...

Galad22 wrote...
There is no difference between these two.

Incorrect.

You're both right, and you're both wrong. There's a difference between the two, but only insofar as how they're each treated by the player. I think that, for the most part, Upsettingshorts's views are most in-line with my own, as far as what we enjoy in an RPG and whatnot. I like combat. I like challenging combat that pushes me to think harder and make better decisions. I also like dialogue. I like challenging dialogue that pushes me to think harder and make better decisions.

Some people don't like dialogue. They skip through lines and always pick the upper-right response. They play on nightmare, because it offers the most challenging gameplay experience for them.

Some people don't like combat. They savor each line of dialogue and spend eternities deciding what their character would actually say. They play on casual, because it trivializes an aspect of gameplay that they don't enjoy.

The difference is that people who don't like combat still have to put up with it. Is the five-year-old suggestion of a writer for a toggle to make combat skippable in the same way that dialogue is really that world-shattering?

[Addai]

Aesieru wrote...

The whole skipping combat in an RPG idea is something that outside of conversation choices, I am a bit baffled at the mere suggestion of.

Immersion goes out the door, eh?

What is so immersive about being attacked every time you walk out your front door?

It's funny that it's such a mind-blowing concept to people, apparently, that people like games for different reasons and appreciate different things about the same game, or maybe just on a given day don't feel like this and want to move on to that.  It's so mind-blowing a concept that people don't even want that to be an option, lest someone somewhere be doing it wrong.

[Vice-Admiral von Titsling]

Galad22 wrote...
Says who? You are not master of the universe.

Whether I am or not, your statement is fundamentally incorrect.

Games are made to be played. Once 'play' is removed from them, they cease to be 'games'. Removing dialogue from a game doesn't remove its base essence, which is that you PLAY it. The difference between video games and other entertainment media is the viewer's ability to manipulate it. It's an interactive medium. Without the interactive element it does not exist in its common form.

What you're saying makes about as much sense as claiming that you're still 'driving' a car if you give it a destination and a robot drives it instead. You're not piloting the car, you're riding in it.

Games that you cannot play are not games, they're visual novels. While I don't mind if you want to play a visual novel, don't try to shoehorn the two together.

Modifié par Vice-Admiral von Titsling, 17 mars 2011 - 04:20 .

[the_one_54321]

Addai67 wrote...
It's so mind-blowing a concept that people don't even want that to be an option, lest someone somewhere be doing it wrong.

Yes.
There's more on it a page or so back.

[Aesieru]

Addai67 wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

The whole skipping combat in an RPG idea is something that outside of conversation choices, I am a bit baffled at the mere suggestion of.

Immersion goes out the door, eh?

What is so immersive about being attacked every time you walk out your front door?

It's funny that it's such a mind-blowing concept to people, apparently, that people like games for different reasons and appreciate different things about the same game, or maybe just on a given day don't feel like this and want to move on to that.  It's so mind-blowing a concept that people don't even want that to be an option, lest someone somewhere be doing it wrong.

Imagine you're in a war-field and you could skip all the battles and just listen to the mission briefings and read the txt... do you know what you'd be doing? Modifying the directory files without ever installing the game... that's what you'd be doing.

Gameplay is ESSENTIALLY the game, the story and what not is added as flaire to make it more interesting, and while story is my main focus, I recognize this, though that doesn't mean I support less of a focus on story in games.

In any case, if you fix the constant battles at every second, you'll have a much more enjoyable gameplay that makes sense, and I thought NWN2 and a few other games did that pretty well, despite reception of the game quality itself...

The ability to simply skip combat shows a lack of involvement of the player.

---

Understand that a writer and designer have a limited amount of time to immerse you in the content of the world and get you to enjoy it.

Movies have combat, and that's because they're FIGHTING for what they believe, think, support, or to survive.

Games have combat, as a way to get you to want to support, destroy, or protect what you're in the game for.

Combat is one of the few ways you can be immersed, as the story is "flaire" that can't just be made, when you've got a full picture that you're just watching... imagine a movie with only story and only drama... all the time. Things like that exist, but it's not the most enjoyed in terms of numbers or majority.

Understand that it's not simple... removing or bypassing combat is just another way that they have to overcompensate on the immersion for, and it may not be enough...

You fought those Templars and those Mages because they were wrong, they were evil, or you just plain didn't like them... without that combat you never really felt you were against them.

Modifié par Aesieru, 17 mars 2011 - 04:25 .

[pezit]

i wouldn't mind a fast forward button to skip the combat in DA2.

[Galad22]

Vice-Admiral von Titsling wrote...

Whether I am or not, your statement is fundamentally incorrect.

Games are made to be played. Once 'play' is removed from them, they cease to be 'games'. Removing dialogue from a game doesn't remove its base essence, which is that you PLAY it. The difference between video games and other entertainment media is the viewer's ability to manipulate it. It's an interactive medium. Without the interactive element it does not exist in its common form.

What you're saying makes about as much sense as claiming that you're still 'driving' a car if you give it a destination and a robot drives it instead. You're not piloting the car, you're riding in it.

Games that you cannot play are not games, they're visual novels. While I don't mind if you want to play a visual novel, don't try to shoehorn the two together.

You seems to mistake game part of the game as combat.

This is incorrect or at least not the whole story.

[Vice-Admiral von Titsling]

Galad22 wrote...
You seems to mistake game part of the game as combat.

This is incorrect or at least not the whole story.

The combat/puzzle/trivia/etc part of the game is ABSOLUTELY the foundation of the game, because that's what makes it a GAME and not a movie where you get to decide who you have sex with. If you aren't playing it, it isn't a game. You don't play dodgeball by sitting down and watching other people play it.

If you want to watch an interactive movie there's a market for that. But don't call it a game, because it's not.

[mesmerizedish]

Vice-Admiral von Titsling wrote...

The combat/puzzle/trivia/etc part of the game is ABSOLUTELY the foundation of the game, because that's what makes it a GAME and not a movie where you get to decide who you have sex with. If you aren't playing it, it isn't a game. You don't play dodgeball by sitting down and watching other people play it.

If you want to watch an interactive movie there's a market for that. But don't call it a game, because it's not.

Removing combat from the equation doesn't dramatically alter the game, as Torment proves. Most of the "avoidable combat" in that game isn't even dialogue-based. It's just quite literally avoiding enemies. How is pushing a skip button so different from going around (which you can't do in DAII)?

[Merci357]

Vice-Admiral von Titsling wrote...

Galad22 wrote...
You seems to mistake game part of the game as combat.

This is incorrect or at least not the whole story.

The combat/puzzle/trivia/etc part of the game is ABSOLUTELY the foundation of the game, because that's what makes it a GAME and not a movie where you get to decide who you have sex with. If you aren't playing it, it isn't a game. You don't play dodgeball by sitting down and watching other people play it.

If you want to watch an interactive movie there's a market for that. But don't call it a game, because it's not.

http://www.joystiq.c...killing-anyone/

Is it bad that games have such options, if combat is so important?

[Aesieru]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Vice-Admiral von Titsling wrote...

The combat/puzzle/trivia/etc part of the game is ABSOLUTELY the foundation of the game, because that's what makes it a GAME and not a movie where you get to decide who you have sex with. If you aren't playing it, it isn't a game. You don't play dodgeball by sitting down and watching other people play it.

If you want to watch an interactive movie there's a market for that. But don't call it a game, because it's not.

Removing combat from the equation doesn't dramatically alter the game, as Torment proves. Most of the "avoidable combat" in that game isn't even dialogue-based. It's just quite literally avoiding enemies. How is pushing a skip button so different from going around (which you can't do in DAII)?

Because going around the enemies is a in-game choice and feature, such as trying to be stealthy, but skipping them prevents a point of immersion.

You're scared or wary of the enemies and their Dark Spawn ogre so you move around it, versus... "click" *appear behind enemies* keep walking.

[Vice-Admiral von Titsling]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...
Removing combat from the equation doesn't dramatically alter the game, as Torment proves. Most of the "avoidable combat" in that game isn't even dialogue-based. It's just quite literally avoiding enemies. How is pushing a skip button so different from going around (which you can't do in DAII)?

I can dodge mobs in FFXII and not get into fights either except for bosses. In any RPG with an overworld where you can see the mobs, you can do this. Guess what-- even when you're dodging mobs, you're playing, because you're interacting with the game.

If you are not playing it, it's not a game. It isn't hard to understand.

[Galad22]

Vice-Admiral von Titsling wrote...

Galad22 wrote...
You seems to mistake game part of the game as combat.

This is incorrect or at least not the whole story.

The combat/puzzle/trivia/etc part of the game is ABSOLUTELY the foundation of the game, because that's what makes it a GAME and not a movie where you get to decide who you have sex with. If you aren't playing it, it isn't a game. You don't play dodgeball by sitting down and watching other people play it.

If you want to watch an interactive movie there's a market for that. But don't call it a game, because it's not.

Have you played deus ex, planescape torment?

You can skip most fights in those even last boss in torment through conversation.

And those are definitely games.

[the_one_54321]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...
How is pushing a skip button so different from going around (which you can't do in DAII)?

Pushing a skip button is you skipping the game. Using a game play feature to do something other than fighting is not skipping the game. You pretty much said this within the question itself.

Galad22 wrote...
You can skip most fights in those even last boss in torment through conversation.

That is not skipping.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 17 mars 2011 - 04:33 .

[Vice-Admiral von Titsling]

Merci357 wrote...
http://www.joystiq.c...killing-anyone/

Is it bad that games have such options, if combat is so important?

By going out of your way to avoid killing anything in a game you're still playing it. You just made a choice to dodge the enemies as opposed to fighting them. The controller is still in your hands, and it's up to you to make the strategy work.

[Galad22]

Aesieru wrote...

Because going around the enemies is a in-game choice and feature, such as trying to be stealthy, but skipping them prevents a point of immersion.

You're scared or wary of the enemies and their Dark Spawn ogre so you move around it, versus... "click" *appear behind enemies* keep walking.

And skipping conversations doesn't prevent immersion?

That is exactly same thing.

[the_one_54321]

Galad22 wrote...
And skipping conversations doesn't prevent immersion?

That is exactly same thing.

You shouldn't be able to skip dialog either.

[Galad22]

the_one_54321 wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...
How is pushing a skip button so different from going around (which you can't do in DAII)?

Pushing a skip button is you skipping the game. Using a game play feature to do something other than fighting is not skipping the game. You pretty much said this within the question itself.

Galad22 wrote...
You can skip most fights in those even last boss in torment through conversation.

That is not skipping.

Fine avoid. Still game allowing you to do that makes game much better not worse.

[Vice-Admiral von Titsling]

Galad22 wrote...
You can skip most fights in those even last boss in torment through conversation.

And those are definitely games.

Are you holding the controller/mouse? Did you talk yourself out of a fight with someone by making dialogue choices?

Congratulations, you're playing a game.

[Aesieru]

Galad22 wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Because going around the enemies is a in-game choice and feature, such as trying to be stealthy, but skipping them prevents a point of immersion.

You're scared or wary of the enemies and their Dark Spawn ogre so you move around it, versus... "click" *appear behind enemies* keep walking.

And skipping conversations doesn't prevent immersion?

That is exactly same thing.

Skippable was initially for debugging in the first place, but people ALREADY KNEW the story because they had heard it, most games don't allow you to skip outside of mods or a key most people don't think of, 360 one's don't allow you to skip or pause unless you use a non-game feature (the system menu).


---

It is a game-play feature to be able to SKIP COMBAT by means of conversation.

It is not a game-play feature to be able to SKIP COMBAT by means of artificially SKIPPING the combat.

Modifié par Aesieru, 17 mars 2011 - 04:37 .

[Galad22]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Galad22 wrote...
And skipping conversations doesn't prevent immersion?

That is exactly same thing.

You shouldn't be able to skip dialog either.

Agreed, but if you can do that, you should be allowed to skip combat as well.