490 réponses à ce sujet

[dragon_83]

Haexpane wrote...


The most important thing in RPGs is clearly LIFETIME NETWORK quality romace in diapers! Anyone who longs for the Baldur's Gate style of true RPG gaming is clearly a whiny hater who can not appreciate DC Andrews romance novels.

You mean Twilight novels.

[The Velveteen Rabbit]

I must say: it takes some serious balls to make a thread like this.

[Altered Idol]

Dr. Impossible wrote...

Altered Idol wrote...

I for one would have been disappointed had they released a game also identical to Origins in everyway. It would have added nothing.

Change for the sake of change is stupid. A second Origins would have added a new story with new locations, quests, characters and items, and new and improved mechanics. And so on. Why do you call that "nothing"?

And giving an old game a lick of paint and reselling it as a sequel is equally as stupid.

A second origins would have repeated the same old routine. Starts with normal life, attacked by enemy, character rallies friends and followers to defeat big boss baddy that threatens to destroy the world. The end. Formulaic in the extreme.

Its would be like going to watch a remake of a old film. It would have a shiny new cast and location but would ultimately feel inferior to the original as the idea and story had already been done.

Yes DA2 is very different to Origins but different does not mean bad or worse. It simply means different. The whole concept of the game was more specific from the outset. It was about Hawke's rise to power, not saving a nation from an ancient enemy. It was about a journey for an individual looking for a new life in a foreign land, not about trying to defend the home they already had. It was told from a personal perspective, not an epic, grandiose scale saga like Origins.

I love Origins. It is rightfully up there as one of my all-time favourite games.
 
The vitriol directed at DA2 for not being identical to the first game has been over-the-top and damn right crazy at times.

Do I think its the best game ever??? No.

Do I think its as bad as alot of people are making out?Hell No.,

Do I think with time and a bit more polish it would have been far better? Yes.

Modifié par Altered Idol, 21 mars 2011 - 09:55 .

[TJSolo]

In order to be DAO2 all that is needed is multiple playable races and a unique origin part for each, as that was all that made Dragon Age, Dragon Age:Origins not all the strawmen you are putting up. The game could have even taken place in Kirkwall. Well I suppose change for the sake of change is enough for some.

Modifié par TJSolo, 21 mars 2011 - 10:01 .

[Akka le Vil]

bigrob08 wrote...

Console gaming isn't limited to "dumbed-down" games. In much the same way that PC games aren't limited to copycat MMORPGs.

It may not be limited to "dumbed down games", but it encompass them, and it still has a public that enjoy widely more games that are superficial and action-driven. And publishers are interested in statistics, so if there is more of such a public there, the game will be dumbed down for them - even if they don't represent the whole population.

[b00mQQ]

cosgamer wrote...

Thankful for a rushed game? Thankful for linear gameplay? For repeated areas? For sloppy NPC interaction? For shorter game playing time at $60 a pop? I could go on, but I won't.

I'll save my gratitude for better produced games, thank you.

It's kind of funny how everything you stated also applies to Origins exce[t fpr the shorter game part.

[TJSolo]

b00mQQ wrote...

cosgamer wrote...

Thankful for a rushed game? Thankful for linear gameplay? For repeated areas? For sloppy NPC interaction? For shorter game playing time at $60 a pop? I could go on, but I won't.

I'll save my gratitude for better produced games, thank you.

It's kind of funny how everything you stated also applies to Origins exce[t fpr the shorter game part.

Rushed game applies to DAO? No.
Linear gameplay? Hmmm close but it the comparison is to DA2(act 1 to act 2 to act 3) then DAO is less linear.
Repeated areas? No. I read people mentioning that but I am doing another playthrough and it just not the case. So there is one mansion in Denerim that is a copy of the Cousland estate. The mansions all are copies of Fenris' home and there are only 3 cave maps despite there being more than 3 cave locations.
Sloppy NPC interaction? I never had a NPC in DAO have conversations about events that have yet to happen and then when those events happen the NPC has nothing to say about it.

Funny how everything that was stated does not apply to Origins.

Modifié par TJSolo, 21 mars 2011 - 10:32 .

[supertouch]

people are downplaying and disregarding issues with dragon age 2. the game lacks a focused story, ambiguous dialogue choices, diversity of environments, and the nuanced, tactic-oriented combat of origins. i could go on.

what is a more reasonable expectation? that a sequel follow the successful formula of its predecessor or that a game be stripped of the elements that comprise a great rpg? most people -- including the proponents of dragon age 2 -- would be happy with the former, while many are unhappy with the latter.

[Otterwarden]

tulx wrote...

carlosjuero wrote...

How about we appreciate that everyone has differing opinions? You are no more right than the people who do not like DA 2 - both are opinions. Pure and simple.

It's just that most people seem to have a negative stance by default - regardless of what the developer does. Once a franchise is established and has lost its "underdog" tag, people start bashing it no matter what. CoD kept copying their original formula, and the whole gaming scene is in uproar. Bioware attempts to evolve its franchises (Dragon Age and Mass Effect) and people are in uproar.
Seems they just don't knew what they want.

I would have to take issue with that statement as I think they do know what they want.  They may not have had the time and dedication to summarize it as effectively as this criticism did, but they falsely assumed that after years of communicating with Bioware some things could go unsaid.  This is a fight to draw the line in the sand and put them on notice that "enough is enough".  They need to look at their sales figures and decide if they have captured a sufficient new crop of fans to take this model forward, because the old guard is not following down this path.  Its just too patronizing and too boring.

JustAGamer

Mar 20, 2011

First of all: in my 20 years of C-RPG experience I've never written a game review before because I've never felt the need for it (by the way: apologies for my bad English, I'm not a native speaker). With Drageon Age 2 I believe a worrying tendency emerges I have to adress: short development periods (18 month for DA2), incomplete game world and story,simplistic gameplay to broaden the audience,demanding full prize while preparing DLCs that shall fill in the remaining gaps. Bioware was once regarded as "the bringer of rain" aftera drought in the genre of RPGs (for the PC). But now they could play the opposite role: if they are the most prominent agents of the genre (besides Bethesda) and their games are setting trends, then other companies will follow their example, if they haven't already. To be moredetailed I'll point out aspects that annoyed me the most:

Game World:- The most insolent re-use in an state-of-the-art RPG I've seen so far: dozens of times you walk through levels which are IDENTICAL, and I mean identical. Every corner, texture, modell, architecture, lighting etc. are exactly the same, just with another label (for example "cave xyz" instead of "cave abc").
- The main game world consists of just 15 to 20 small or very small locations in a city (small means an area which takes 20 seconds to 60 seconds to cross, very small means a simple flat)
- There are no (more or less) diversified regions like snowy mountains, deserts, jungle, forest, real dungeons, castles, other towns etc., just this one city and three outer regions that are not noteworthy
- The few existing places look sterile and somehow empty although there are a few people standing around, but they are just copies doing nothing. There are no animals, no interesting props, no interesting architecture, no waving foliage, no sounds of wind, loud chatter etc.
- Most of the levels are extremely tubular: just one way, no possibility for exploration. If you use such level design, you should use it for thrilling script events like in COD to propell the storytelling, but that's not the case for DA2. A proper game world would have been to expensive...

Gameplay:
- 90% of gameplay consists of running and killing: go to place X, kill everyone, talk to person Y to have a reason for killing and then go to place Z and kill everyone. Most of the time there are no alternative ways to solve problems (the only exceptions are found in dialogues with companions). But hey: that's what's the world about, ain't it?
- There are no possible interactions with the environment, just run, fight, talk, (rudimental) barter. No environmental riddles, no forging, no eating, no sleeping, etc. Would be to complex, eh?

Items and Inventory:
- Companions can't be equipped with armor, just with a weapon, a ring, a belt and an amulet. Would be to complex...
- In the inventory and shops items look absolutely uninteresting and the same: each type of item has the SAME grey and white icon, for example the same symbol for a sword. The only difference are the values of the
item. To much effort giving them a distinguishable look?
- Most of the time the few items you can purchase outvalue the few items you find in your travels
- There are no real item sets or unique items
- Why does a plate armor take exactly the same space / weight in inventory (= 1 Slot) as a ring or an amulet (= 1 Slot)? Too much to think about?

Combat:
- Remember, you have to fight and fight and fight, and sometimes to fight, but don't worry: there isn't much to do, sit back and watch, no tactics needed (you could raise the difficulty but that just means opponents don't take as much damage and hit you harder).
- No overview allowed: forget Dragon Age Origins or Baldur's Gate, not immersive enough, has to be a close look over the should like Mass Effect 2 or say COD!? Another "advantage": the game world seems to be larger than it is.
- In many fights there are up to four or five waves of the same opponents like in good old arcade gaming. That's a challenge RPG-players really like. - If a fight ends successfully health, mana and stamina of all your companions are restored instantly. No need for rest, healing etc.... Waste of time, there are more interesting fights waiting 10
yards ahead.
- Ammunition is for prigs: arrows and bolts are created the moment they are shoot, no buying needed.

Dramaturgy:
- The backgrounds and dialogues preceding and following missions are of high quality, BUT what about a larger conflict, to what end am I killing hordes of idiots? Is there any greater inner or outer threat than a killer whom the player seeks to kill? The Qunari are a threat, for twenty minutes of gameplay. Templar and Magicians don't like each other and there's a fight, but that's it. No threat and no thread. Calling Hawke "Champion" is an exaggeration to cover that he hasn't achieved much. The whole game is "unepic" and seems to be a chapter of an epic game.

Modifié par Otterwarden, 22 mars 2011 - 12:12 .

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

tulx wrote...

So many of you here call yourselves hardcore RPG and Bioware fans, you all loved DA:O so much, yet most posts about DA II I see are negative. You should really be THANKFULL for what Bioware is daring to do with such a lucrative franchise as Dragon Age.
The developers are right to push you out of your comfort zone and bring the franchise in another direction, bring it FURTHER. Do you really want this to tur into another CoD where they cough up a more expensive version of the same game each year? Call of Duty Modern Warfare is a great game, it really is, but if you played MW 1, you have absolutely no reason to play MW2 or Balck Ops - it's exactly the same. I played MW1 and MW2, now I can't event tell which episode was from which game - they are so alike.
Do you want the same to happen with Dragon Age? Where there's a bunch of games which all copy the first and milk the same old formula? For how long can you listen to the same song before you start to get sick of it?

As things are now, you have reason to go back and play Origins after you've played Dragon Age II. Because it's DIFFERENT, not just the same game with outdated graphcs and smaller explosions. Enjoy the variaty.

In short - stop whining and start appreciating. There are too few developers who risk to evolve their biggest franchises - don't force Bioware to make cookie-cutter games like Activision does now.

1.) *Raises hand* I never called myself a hardcore RPG fan or a Bioware fan. They have made some good games but DA 2, to me, was below par compared to some of their other games. I try not to mindlessly support any company, no matter how good the product in question is.
 
2.) Maybe some of the posts about DA 2 are negative because it was not a very good product for multiple reasons? It's entirely subjective really, all of the comments on the forums whith what defines a RPG and what people like or dislike. Criticism is not bad, as long as it is constructive (granted some isn't).

3.) I'm all about a company taking risks and trying new things but perhaps the big changes should be done in another franchise other than a successful one a sequel was being made for? Turning off your fan base in any genre is not considered a good business practice and DA 2 seems to of turned off quite a few fans.

4.) I'm not sure CoD is a fair comparisson considering it's a very different type of game but heck, I'll go along with the example. Some changes are nice, but most developers stick with something of a consistant formula because is kind of screws up the rhythm and the expectations of their fans. Sure MW 2 could of been a bit different but MW 1 was rather successful so why change what isn't broken. The main focus of the MW games is the action, the plot isn't what the developer spends alot of time on so if it's forgetable, that's why. The main focus of a game like DA is story (whether character or plotwise) with strategy mechanics and stat building of a RPG likely being secondary themes. Those both kind of took a hit for the worse in my opinion so I'm not really happy it is different. All change isn't good change, sometimes it can be negative change.

5.) Calling anyone who disagrees with you and who posts criticisms a "whiner" does not win you any votes with me. Voicing valid concerns about how DA 2 could be a better game can actually show that you give a damn and hope Bioware turns the ship around for DA 3. I would like to give them future business as they have turned out many games I have considered "good" in the past for a variety of reasons. I believe DA 2 is sub par for Bioware, based on their track record. I would go into detail as to why, but my list is rather long. I'll save it for another thread. 

[Fausty Claws]

How bout this?

We went from Graphic Novel to Manga.

[Otterwarden]

Ryllen Laerth Kriel wrote...

5.) Calling anyone who disagrees with you and who posts criticisms a "whiner" does not win you any votes with me. Voicing valid concerns about how DA 2 could be a better game can actually show that you give a damn and hope Bioware turns the ship around for DA 3. I would like to give them future business as they have turned out many games I have considered "good" in the past for a variety of reasons. I believe DA 2 is sub par for Bioware, based on their track record. I would go into detail as to why, but my list is rather long. I'll save it for another thread. 

Agree fully.  Also, as was highlighted in the above criticism, the "whining" is not just about the game.  It is a serious fear that this company sets trends and others will follow in their path unless they feel that there are consequences to doing so.

[Lee T]

Akka le Vil wrote...

bigrob08 wrote...

Console gaming isn't limited to "dumbed-down" games. In much the same way that PC games aren't limited to copycat MMORPGs.

It may not be limited to "dumbed down games", but it encompass them, and it still has a public that enjoy widely more games that are superficial and action-driven. And publishers are interested in statistics, so if there is more of such a public there, the game will be dumbed down for them - even if they don't represent the whole population.

IIRC the two best selling games of all times on PC are the Sims and WoW (who both solds way more than any title on 360 or PS3), not exactly stellar titles either.

[blacqout]

tulx wrote...]
 I played MW1 and MW2, now I can't event tell which episode was from which game - they are so alike.

If this is truly the case, you must be some sort of an imbecile. CoD 4 was a succinct take on the nature of modern war. Modern Warfare 2 was far more bombastic in tone.  The core gameplay didn't change a whole lot, but that's because it doesn't need to, and it certainly takes nothing away from the fact that each game is a very different experience.

Also, Treyarch's work on Call of Duty is an absolute masterclass in video game presentation. World at War being especially breathtaking.

[Lcat84]

I cannot believe this is a Bioware game...there are so many flaws and stupid errors I've noticed in this game, that it makes me ashamed to almost play it....It's like Bioware rushed this game out to appease fans, and all they've done is ruin the game... How is it a Company as awesome as Bioware is can create games as awesome as KOTOR and Mass Effect, destroy a huge title such as Dragon Age 2.

[Deadmac]

tulx wrote...
So many of you here call yourselves hardcore RPG and Bioware fans, you all loved DA:O so much, yet most posts about DA II I see are negative. You should really be THANKFULL for what Bioware is daring to do with such a lucrative franchise as Dragon Age.

Welcome to the world of diversity. When I see people complaining about opposing opinions in this manner, I kind of think they are living in a protective bubble. Once a small pinhole punctures the protective layers, the harsh reality of the world becomes too heavy.

People need to develop some coping skills, or they will never make it in the real world.

Relax man.

[mundus66]

Gatt9 wrote...

mundus66 wrote...

Brenus wrote...

Dr. Impossible wrote...
A fighting game can be complex too.

Yes, I do enjoy Street Fighter 4 on the PC.

Now then, wheres Super Street Fighter 4? Oh right, they arent releasing it on the PC because its developers are idiots.

If console games are so great, then how about releasing them on the PC? Oh, wait, thats right, then absolutely no one would buy a console ever again.

And developers would have trouble breaking one million sold whats your point? The problem with PC is that piracy is too broad, you basically need a online game to do well with a PC only release.

For reference...
http://en.wikipedia...._PC_video_games

The Sims 2: 13 million
Stacraft 2: 4.5 million
Battlefield 1942 4.3 million
The Sims 3:  3.7 million
Battlefield 2: 3.5 million

It compares favorably with the list of 360 games.  Piracy exists,  yes,  and it's definitely a problem.  But it's not anywhere near what you claim.  You also fail to observe it's also a problem on consoles,  which IIRC is why Microsoft banned a ton of X-boxes at Activision's request.

The PC platform is the future,  this is the final generation of consoles as they cannot overcome the issues of heat dissipation and power consumption in the tiny cases with the tiny power supplies.  In 5 years the big thing will be a wintel 16+ core server in your home pushing screens throughout the house,  most likely running Microsoft's Live service and Steam for VoD and on-demand gaming.

That is the future,  even EA's recognized it.

There are laptops running games better and have less heat issues than the PS3 and 360. Also have you watched them today? They are really small (PS3 slim and 360 slim) and just as powerful as their oversized brothers.

3 Years from now (when next gen will probably start) a box the same size as a 360 or PS3 thats not slim. Can easily, be as powerful as some of the best computers today. Make that box have SSD drive as mandatory and all games run from the HDD, and you will see how much "future" the PC has. Its by no means a dead system, but imo a console is always gonna do better, granted that new consoles will be more and more like PC's.

[Akka le Vil]

Lee T wrote...

IIRC the two best selling games of all times on PC are the Sims and WoW (who both solds way more than any title on 360 or PS3), not exactly stellar titles either.

True, but you can bet that they would be even more simplified if they would ever be ported on consoles.

[beowulph]

Dragon age 2 disappointed me with the short game play, lack of character interaction, and recycled maps. I enjoyed the way the story was told and that the rogues lock picking skill was streamlined. What I wish they could find a balance on was the amount of gear that was in the game and areas that where available to explore.

[Tom Jolly]

 Frankly, I just don't like being told how I should feel.  I am appreciative of some the creative elements of the game, but feel that the overall production falls short.  It's not that they DARED to try something different. They DARED and then didn't back it up with adequate follow-through.  Instead of pulling out all the stops, they elected to reuse areas, copy and paste dungeons, and loosely thread the plot and dialouge on a greatly diminished scope.

This game is condensed, and represents an explotation of BIOWARE's good name.  I promise you that someone calculating theif at the top is patting  him/herself on the back for producing a superficially high-quality product within a hyper-effcient design schedule.  This one's a money-maker, and, while I'm all for it, the product MUST live up to expectations.  It simply doesn't live up to mine. So I will continue to voice my discontent, to hold the theiving bastards responsible for this game's shortcomings accountable.  With a little luck, Bioware may be able to use this issue to spend MORE time and money on development.  If there was ever a dev that desreves it, its Bioware. 

Modifié par Tom Jolly, 24 mars 2011 - 09:34 .

[TheKnave69]

mundus66 wrote...
3 Years from now (when next gen will probably start) a box the same size as a 360 or PS3 thats not slim. Can easily, be as powerful as some of the best computers today. Make that box have SSD drive as mandatory and all games run from the HDD, and you will see how much "future" the PC has. Its by no means a dead system, but imo a console is always gonna do better, granted that new consoles will be more and more like PC's.

Why are you comparing platforms that are 3 years into the future with the best computers today?  That implies that PC technology will stagnate.  With the rate that the PC hardware market changes, the best computers today will be low-end by 3 years.  Most serious PC gamers like to be on the bleeding edge of technology, and a 3-year-old just doesn't cut it. Just my thoughts.

[MikeP999]

tulx wrote...

So many of you here call yourselves hardcore RPG and Bioware fans, you all loved DA:O so much, yet most posts about DA II I see are negative. You should really be THANKFULL for what Bioware is daring to do with such a lucrative franchise as Dragon Age.
The developers are right to push you out of your comfort zone and bring the franchise in another direction, bring it FURTHER. Do you really want this to tur into another CoD where they cough up a more expensive version of the same game each year? Call of Duty Modern Warfare is a great game, it really is, but if you played MW 1, you have absolutely no reason to play MW2 or Balck Ops - it's exactly the same. I played MW1 and MW2, now I can't event tell which episode was from which game - they are so alike.
Do you want the same to happen with Dragon Age? Where there's a bunch of games which all copy the first and milk the same old formula? For how long can you listen to the same song before you start to get sick of it?

As things are now, you have reason to go back and play Origins after you've played Dragon Age II. Because it's DIFFERENT, not just the same game with outdated graphcs and smaller explosions. Enjoy the variaty.

In short - stop whining and start appreciating. There are too few developers who risk to evolve their biggest franchises - don't force Bioware to make cookie-cutter games like Activision does now.

Just so I'm clear fella, are you actually thinking for one second that you're going to tell me how to feel?  Good luck with that junior.

[Caralampio]

tulx, your avatar looks just like mine with a beard! How dare you!

Modifié par Caralampio, 24 mars 2011 - 10:20 .

[DocDoomII]

tulx wrote...

So many of you here call yourselves hardcore RPG and Bioware fans, you all loved DA:O so much, yet most posts about DA II I see are negative. You should really be THANKFULL for what Bioware is daring to do with such a lucrative franchise as Dragon Age.
The developers are right to push you out of your comfort zone and bring the franchise in another direction, bring it FURTHER. Do you really want this to tur into another CoD where they cough up a more expensive version of the same game each year? Call of Duty Modern Warfare is a great game, it really is, but if you played MW 1, you have absolutely no reason to play MW2 or Balck Ops - it's exactly the same. I played MW1 and MW2, now I can't event tell which episode was from which game - they are so alike.
Do you want the same to happen with Dragon Age? Where there's a bunch of games which all copy the first and milk the same old formula? For how long can you listen to the same song before you start to get sick of it?

As things are now, you have reason to go back and play Origins after you've played Dragon Age II. Because it's DIFFERENT, not just the same game with outdated graphcs and smaller explosions. Enjoy the variaty.

In short - stop whining and start appreciating. There are too few developers who risk to evolve their biggest franchises - don't force Bioware to make cookie-cutter games like Activision does now.

You do understand that they almost turned it into a CoD (Call of Dragonage)?
They only need to releas a DLC with rifles and it becames a perfect shooter.

[Haexpane]

I heard the next DLC is going to have Tali and Ronald McDonald skins