490 réponses à ce sujet

[Tantum Dic Verbo]

Iwasdrunkbro wrote...

I should appreciate how characters that died in my origins save just randomly come back to life?

Well, this part makes sense, anyway.  You know how, if you're in a party of adventurers, you come back to life at the end of a fight?  Well, it probably just means that Zevran and/or Leliana got inducted into a new party of adventurers after your PC killed them in Origins.  A few tourists with adventurer credentials probably wandered in to see Andraste's ashes and brought Leli into a group.

[Aratark]

TL:DR at bottom of post

I think part of the problem , from my perspective, is that there is this feeling of 'HARDCORE RPGer' against 'casual player'. I've been a role-player (table-top PnP, Larp and videogame) for nigh on 30 years. I've played the classics and some obscure ones. I would say this pretty much puts me in the hardcore classification. However, I couldn't finish DA:O when I first got it. It didn't feel new, it didn't feel innovative, it didn't feel different. It might as well have been IWD, NWN, BG, PS:T or pretty much any other video game rpg that had come before. The Big Evil awaiting you at the end, the feeling of the world depending on you (or at least a fairly major country or continent); it all seemed just a rehash of previous games. I took a break from playing, came back and have finished the game a number of times now.

I caught some of the hype over DA2 and heard from the beginning it wasn't going to be DA:O2. From the get go, we were told there were going to be substantial changes to it. I then made a concious decision to try and avoid all of the marketing hype that was going to surround it. Having done some marketing work, I'm familiar with the concepts they use, and how what they try and sell through marketing isn't what the product finally delivers. As a result, I missed all the button=awesome hype (something I wish I could still say is true, especially when the whole argument a large number of people can come up with is based on this marketing strategy rather than a well thought out comment)

My missus bought me DA2 on release day as a surprise. I wasn't planning on getting it straight out the gate, mainly to try and avoid some of the almost inevitable bugs there would be. In my first playthrough, I missed most of them, with just a couple of freezes spoiling my enjoyment. Completed my first playthrough in a few days and found I really enjoyed it.

Yes, I really said that. Someone who identifies themselves with the hardcore RPG element saying they really enjoyed the game. I'm not saying it is without flaws (re-used areas being one of the major ones) however, I liked the game I played.

I found the stories to be interesting and well thought out, if not slightly poorly executed. I'd have preferred to have had a shorter act 1 and a longer act 3, but I felt they had done a reasonable job setting up the act 3 story with some of the sidequests in the first 2 acts. As I've commented elsewhere, some cut-scenes between the acts showing how we moved between them would have benefited the story immensely, however, they aren't there so it is slightly moot at this point.

For the people who say there wasn't a protagonist in this game, I would humbly suggest you are mistaken. There was no Big Evil, however, the city of Kirkwall was the protagonist. The apathy that allowed the mages to be treated they way they were compared to Circles in other cities, the Kirkwall Chantry being unable to keep their martial arm under control, the bias and xenophobia of the Kirkwallians toward the Fereldan refugees; these are all part of the make-up of the city that was what you were fighting.

I'd have liked to have seen more time spent on the game to polish out a number of things that weren't all they could be, however, I was happy to see BW move away from their comfort zone a little and show that they can do something different. If I'm still playing videogame RPG's in 20 years (will be approaching 60 then) I don't want to see BW producing what is essentially BG23 at that point. I'd like to have a new BW game released for me to buy, I'd like for it to be an RPG, I'd like it to have some of the staples of what a BW game is seen to be, but please not another re-hashing of something we've seen hundreds of times before.

*******TL:DR************

I like the game for what it is, not what it isn't. I'm a long time rpger with a fine pedigree of gamesplayed, but I like something different every now and then. DA2 provided that something different with enough familiarity that I didn't feel like I was going out on a limb to try it.

Edit:  I apologise for a little of my grammar, I'm slightly intoxicated and cba going through and correcting it all.

Modifié par Aratark, 22 avril 2011 - 05:46 .

[DocDoomII]

Tantum Dic Verbo wrote...

Iwasdrunkbro wrote...

I should appreciate how characters that died in my origins save just randomly come back to life?

Well, this part makes sense, anyway.  You know how, if you're in a party of adventurers, you come back to life at the end of a fight?  Well, it probably just means that Zevran and/or Leliana got inducted into a new party of adventurers after your PC killed them in Origins.  A few tourists with adventurer credentials probably wandered in to see Andraste's ashes and brought Leli into a group.

Maybe she just released to the nearest graveyard....

http://t3.gstatic.co...nq9YgI6j19g&t=1

[Black-Xero]

Hardly any of the negative posts I see are constructive criticism.They're mostly just constant bashing to the game and devs...how pleasant.Now I know why I try to avoid the DA forums.

[daemon1129]

Black-Xero wrote...

Hardly any of the negative posts I see are constructive criticism.They're mostly just constant bashing to the game and devs...how pleasant.Now I know why I try to avoid the DA forums.

Sometimes people tend to bash and flame about something when they are pissed.  You might not be the same, but at least try to understand that $60 is not a small amount of money for everyone and that even though they put this large sum of money into some kind of entertainment instead of something else perhaps more worthy, they are still entitled to be pissed and I think the forum and internet is the best place to rant.  As long as you don't just straight out insult others and make their mother in it.  I feel much better everytime I bash this game and I am not one bit shame of it. 

And to the OP, why I do I need to appreciate for something I paid for?  If it was $1, fine that would be more like a free giveaway plus as a tiny donation and I would greatly appreciate the devs, but that is not the case now is it?  Unless OP you pirated the game...Which you didn't, so I don't see your point.

[randName]

Aratark wrote...
I like the game for what it is, not what it isn't. I'm a long time rpger with a fine pedigree of gamesplayed, but I like something different every now and then. DA2 provided that something different with enough familiarity that I didn't feel like I was going out on a limb to try it.

I would have been fine with it as a spin-off or as a restart but not as a sequel, since in doing so you have to live up to the expectations of the old.

Now I looked at DA2 as a contiuation of the world and story I helped to build in DA:O, but instead it brought ruination on the old and broke my heart (to be melodramatic) and once it does that it's hard to mend.


As a spin-off that I wouldn't have to see as canon I would have been fine with it, and probably just ignored it given the low quality of the product.

EDIT: Nor do I want the old (BG etc). I'm fine with the new combat mechanics, and I prefer the way DA2 tries to tell the story over DA:O (just not how they do it, nor the actual tale they give us). I was all for the story around the conflict of mages and templars and I never liked the epic save the world fantasy of DA:O ~ but for me DA2 does too many wrongs and the good things simply drown in all the flaws.

Edit:  I apologise for a little of my grammar, I'm slightly intoxicated and cba going through and correcting it all.

I wish I could blame my failed gramar and posting on intoxication ~

Modifié par randName, 22 avril 2011 - 06:26 .

[Cadaveth]

Well, it tells a lot that I find Mortal Kombat's storyline more exciting and better written than DA2's (and that's saying a lot since I bought the new MK as a nostalgia trip).

[Aratark]

randName wrote...

Aratark wrote...
I like the game for what it is, not what it isn't. I'm a long time rpger with a fine pedigree of gamesplayed, but I like something different every now and then. DA2 provided that something different with enough familiarity that I didn't feel like I was going out on a limb to try it.

I would have been fine with it as a spin-off or as a restart but not as a sequel, since in doing so you have to live up to the expectations of the old.

Now I looked at DA2 as a contiuation of the world and story I helped to build in DA:O, but instead it brought ruination on the old and broke my heart (to be melodramatic) and once it does that it's hard to mend.


As a spin-off that I wouldn't have to see as canon I would have been fine with it, and probably just ignored it given the low quality of the product.

EDIT: Nor do I want the old (BG etc). I'm fine with the new combat mechanics, and I prefer the way DA2 tries to tell the story over DA:O (just not how they do it, nor the actual tale they give us). I was all for the story around the conflict of mages and templars and I never liked the epic save the world fantasy of DA:O ~ but for me DA2 does too many wrongs and the good things simply drown in all the flaws.

I've played a lot of final fantasy, so just seeing an ever increasing number after the name doesn't make me automatically think sequel so much as continuation.  For this to have been a sequel, in my eyes, it would have had to have carried on the story of the Warden and/or the DA:O companions.  With it being a new story in the same world, I don't necessarily feel the same need for identical mechanics, as it is different.

I would happily play DA:O2 if they decided to release that game and I would happily play DA:3 (or DA:2 2 just to clarify what I'm pointing at here).  I like this world they have developed and would almost be tempted to overcome by inbred dislike of MMO's if they were to release a quality product that was built heavily on the lore already developed.

I can understand why people have been disappointed with this release, but I don't think it deserves the unrelenting onslaught of hate that certain quarters of the forum are unleashing on it.  It is BW's IP to do with as they will, much as Star Wars belongs to Mr Lucas.  I took a group of friends and family to go and see Chapter 1 when it was released, paying for everything, which was a lot more than the cost of a game when you include drinks, snacks etc, and I hated what they had done to the series.  My response, not go and see another star wars film.  I didn't **** and moan on forums about it, because it wasn't my story to tell.  I respected the fact that he had a vision to unfurl, it just wasn't one I was interested in any more.  So I cut it out of my life.

If everyone who has moaned on here could provide just one piece of constructive criticism rather than another rehash of 'ZOMG, IT SUKCS, button=awesome' rather than the smaller number who have provided helpful criticism of where they feel it went wrong, then maybe the next game would be a lot closer to providing an experience that more people can enjoy.

Sorry for my loquacious response, alcohol tends to bring my garrulous side out.

[Whisky]

Aratark wrote...

I've played a lot of final fantasy, so just seeing an ever increasing number after the name doesn't make me automatically think sequel so much as continuation.  For this to have been a sequel, in my eyes, it would have had to have carried on the story of the Warden and/or the DA:O companions.  With it being a new story in the same world, I don't necessarily feel the same need for identical mechanics, as it is different.

I would happily play DA:O2 if they decided to release that game and I would happily play DA:3 (or DA:2 2 just to clarify what I'm pointing at here).  I like this world they have developed and would almost be tempted to overcome by inbred dislike of MMO's if they were to release a quality product that was built heavily on the lore already developed.

I can understand why people have been disappointed with this release, but I don't think it deserves the unrelenting onslaught of hate that certain quarters of the forum are unleashing on it.  It is BW's IP to do with as they will, much as Star Wars belongs to Mr Lucas.  I took a group of friends and family to go and see Chapter 1 when it was released, paying for everything, which was a lot more than the cost of a game when you include drinks, snacks etc, and I hated what they had done to the series.  My response, not go and see another star wars film.  I didn't **** and moan on forums about it, because it wasn't my story to tell.  I respected the fact that he had a vision to unfurl, it just wasn't one I was interested in any more.  So I cut it out of my life.

If everyone who has moaned on here could provide just one piece of constructive criticism rather than another rehash of 'ZOMG, IT SUKCS, button=awesome' rather than the smaller number who have provided helpful criticism of where they feel it went wrong, then maybe the next game would be a lot closer to providing an experience that more people can enjoy.

Sorry for my loquacious response, alcohol tends to bring my garrulous side out.

Whining is constantly complaining for nothing. People are not "whining" as you said. They want to play another great game just like Origins. You must complain if you want someone to change. Silence will not help you.

About your comparison to movies, here's my thought: You watch a movie, you don't play it. If the movie is garbage, I will do the same as you: just walk away because I cannot hope to change a written story. But you CAN change the devs' minds.
I really hope all these "bashing", "whining" give Bioware something to think about. If they listen at all, that is.

[Aratark]

My point was purely aimed at those who have done nothing more than post 'Worst game ever, sack Laidlaw'. I acknowledged, and am happy to do so again, that a number of people who didn't like the game and some who did, have provided constructive criticism.

Threads that do nothing over than repeat a mantra of £40/$60/56 euros wasted thanks to this game without pointing out what could be done to improve it won't help bring about a better game.

I'll even do my bit here: If we are going to have time jumps, rather than just having a small narrative scene, give us a few small cutscenes showing us what happened, even if it is something as simple as showing a companion living there life in the interim period. It would have helped to both show the passage of time and bring the disparate elements of the story together if done properly.

[randName]

Aratark wrote...
I can understand why people have been disappointed with this release, but I don't think it deserves the unrelenting onslaught of hate that certain quarters of the forum are unleashing on it.  It is BW's IP to do with as they will, much as Star Wars belongs to Mr Lucas.  I took a group of friends and family to go and see Chapter 1 when it was released, paying for everything, which was a lot more than the cost of a game when you include drinks, snacks etc, and I hated what they had done to the series.  My response, not go and see another star wars film.  I didn't **** and moan on forums about it, because it wasn't my story to tell.  I respected the fact that he had a vision to unfurl, it just wasn't one I was interested in any more.  So I cut it out of my life.

If everyone who has moaned on here could provide just one piece of constructive criticism rather than another rehash of 'ZOMG, IT SUKCS, button=awesome' rather than the smaller number who have provided helpful criticism of where they feel it went wrong, then maybe the next game would be a lot closer to providing an experience that more people can enjoy.

Sorry for my loquacious response, alcohol tends to bring my garrulous side out.

Let's start by saying that I for one has never claimed that BioWare needs to listen to the forums and I agree with Jeff Vogel jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2011/01/three-reasons-creators-should-never.html that they really shouldn't even read their own forums. EDIT: (larger developers should have community managers forward information obviously, but there is simply too much emotional garbage and anger on forums, and I for one doesn't paint better if people tell me my paintings are crap, nor if I'm given unreasonable praise for that matter; and you will never get rid of people from either side of the good/bad debate that will be one sided and will give bad criticism/praise).


As for DA2.

Had they been more open with the break DA2 would have with the world of Thedas, and how much it would ignore the events of DA:O I would have been fine with it, now I felt that they lulled us in by raising our expectations that it was a continuation, not for the Warden story, but that of Dragon Age and Thedas.

There was for me also expectations that DA2 would be a quality title, just like old BioWare games, and this is outside any world contiutation, but simply one regarding DA2 failing to live up to the quality of previous titles.


And with Final fantasy it never felt like it was the same world, just an iteration of their jRPG series with some common nominators from game to game - in DA2 there was a contiuation as you could import save files, it was the same world as before and so on. There was never the sense of it being a restart as every FF save X-2.


Now in the end DA2 killed any sort of affection I had to Thedas and the Dragon Age, and in the end it's my loss more than EAs and BioWares (one less sale is nothing to them), and I really wish that I would be able to like it, I even played through DA2 thrice as the OCD/obsessive that I am (don't write too much into that, I've spent as much time in FO3EDIT and FONV getting mods to work for FO3 and FONV by editing out conflicts).


EDIT: Also if DA3 turns out to be better, I might get it - but I'm not going to buy it before the verdict is out.


Also about the rant about people just repeating the same old thing ad nauseum - I hope that I already have proven that I don't.

Modifié par randName, 22 avril 2011 - 07:47 .

[Statulos]

To make things simple, clear and use a non-RPG example: have you guys played or know Hearts of Iron series from Paradox? If that is the case, let me tell that THAT is what I consider evolution.

[Aratark]

I wasn't aiming my comments at any individuals, more at the mentality that the anonymous nature of a forum fosters. I'd like to think that what I wrote came across slightly more measured than a rant, mainly because I'd like to think my rants are more entertaining reading

[randName]

Aratark wrote...

I wasn't aiming my comments at any individuals, more at the mentality that the anonymous nature of a forum fosters. I'd like to think that what I wrote came across slightly more measured than a rant, mainly because I'd like to think my rants are more entertaining reading

Yeah I wasn't insulted, so no problem, and hell I like to rant as well ~


Anyway the amount of moderating you would need to have to make a forum like this promote good posting would also inhibit many of its denizens from posting, and it being an official forum that would tarnish the image of EA and BioWare for draconian moderation (sometimes they already have and suffer from image wise).

Modifié par randName, 22 avril 2011 - 07:51 .

[Aratark]

something simple like moving threads that start with I wasted x amount of cash into one central thread might work, without needing to narrow what we can post.

[randName]

Aratark wrote...

something simple like moving threads that start with I wasted x amount of cash into one central thread might work, without needing to narrow what we can post.

They normally lock threads that are copies of other active threads or if it's something that's been repeated too often.

They should be deleting more comments I think, or edit more - and merge threads more, but they never do the later, and I suspect that they can't or don't want to merge threads.

I would prefer community moderation on some of the subforums, as in Reddit or /.  ~  at least with this the mods won't be accused of being draconian and EA the devil (well not as much anyway).

Modifié par randName, 22 avril 2011 - 08:04 .

[Volourn]

There is no such thing as 'BIO fans'. It's a myth. Everyone posting here are here for their own selfish reasons. Nobody cares about BIO nor should they. It doesn't matter if you like BIO games or not. Customers are about one simple thing - serving themselves and getting their jollies of their own selfish, evil, greedy ways.

Doesn't matter what youa r ebuying you are buying it for yourself. You don't care aboutn the company just what that company can do for you.

Loyalty can't be bought or sold. One is loyal to their family and friends not to companies they buy goods from. It's intellectually dishonest to claim otherwise.

[abaris]

Aratark wrote...

If everyone who has moaned on here could provide just one piece of constructive criticism rather than another rehash of 'ZOMG, IT SUKCS, button=awesome' rather than the smaller number who have provided helpful criticism of where they feel it went wrong, then maybe the next game would be a lot closer to providing an experience that more people can enjoy.

Sorry for my loquacious response, alcohol tends to bring my garrulous side out.

I guess, many have made it very clear where it went wrong.

Repetitive environment
The new combat system, not everybody is able and willing to stomach Ninja jumps and highly explosive enemies.
the inability to outfit the companions
the inability to communicate with companions unless the game wants you to.
enemies raining from the sky.
a closed storyline in a largely deserted city.
Fetch quests with pointers, so that you don't even have to search for the recipient or the cause of the quest.

Part of it I experienced myself, the rest I read on these boards.

[zeejay21]

Volourn wrote...

There is no such thing as 'BIO fans'.

BIO fans? What's does that stand for?

And please, calm down.

[Volourn]

"Repetitive environment"

DA1 (not as bad)

"The new combat system, not everybody is able and willing to stomach Ninja jumps and highly explosive enemies."

*shrug*

"the inability to outfit the companions"

Aww.. DA2 isn't barbie playhouse and companies have their own likes and dislikes.


"the inability to communicate with companions unless the game wants you to."

Perhaps, the companions don't want to talk to you unless they want to talk to you? At least the DA2 npcs, on avergae,a re deeper and more complex than DA1 npcs.

enemies raining from the sky."

I'll give you this. Like repeat environments, this was definitely lame.


"a closed storyline in a largely deserted city."

This doesn't even make sense.


"Fetch quests with pointers"

Like DA1.,


"so that you don't even have to search for the recipient or the cause of the quest."

No worse than getting random quests on bulletin boards. They're just there for extra xp/gold. *shrug* No biggie.



"And please, calm down."

I'm perfectly calm sititng at my desk surfing the internet drinking my pop  onm Good Friday after coming home from work, it's all cool.

Are you calm? Yous eemed to overreact to my post. Why is that?

Modifié par Volourn, 22 avril 2011 - 08:23 .

[Aratark]

@Abaris: I wasn't saying it hadn't been done, purely that the number of non-constructive comments vastly out-weighed the constructive, If someone doesn't like a product, purely saying it is crap won't see future improvement in it.

@Volourn: You appear to have taken pedantry to a new high for this thread. A reference to a BW fan can be taken as a colloquial meaning of a fan of the product, rather than the strict interpretation you have used of a fan of the company. You're cynicism is also rather surprising, maybe you should go outside and smell a flower, watch a sunset and help a stranger and see if you can breath some fresh life into your soul.

[abaris]

Aratark wrote...

@Abaris: I wasn't saying it hadn't been done, purely that the number of non-constructive comments vastly out-weighed the constructive, If someone doesn't like a product, purely saying it is crap won't see future improvement in it.

Yeah, but thinking, even the most constructive criticism has any bearings on future products, is a bit on the optimistic side. The corporate world only listens to the sweet sound of coins. And only if they don't play their music, they might consider a change of direction.

They might as well vent, since 60 dollars for something severly lacking isn't a piece of cake.

But what I meant by my previous post - the criticism is already there. In some, let's say a bit provoking, interviews, these were adressed by the Bioware staff. General consensus was something about adding insult to injury.

[happy_daiz]

Sometimes I think people are really just caught up in the pursuit of perfection.

I really enjoyed both DAO and DA2, and can respect the differences, and admit that I loved BOTH of them. Let's be honest, though, they both had their flaws. I'd forgotten about many of the ones in DAO until I started playing again a couple of weeks ago. I had remembered it to be more bulletproof than it actually was, but no matter, I still enjoyed playing it...and I can say the same about DA2. It has faults - many of which are being addressed - but IMHO, those faults add to the personality of the medium. Broken is one thing, but being different is another thing entirely.

"Perfect" is boring to me. Having a little character isn't a bad thing, and it's those things that you'll remember (hopefully fondly, instead of the reaction I've seen a lot of in these forums).

My point? I am thrilled that we have a game developer who is so willing to benevolently cater to our selfish desires (would that be a desire demon or a sloth demon in this case?) I love them so much I could squeeze the stuffing out of them! 
 

Modifié par happy_daiz, 22 avril 2011 - 08:43 .

[Volourn]

"A reference to a BW fan can be taken as a colloquial meaning of a fan of the product, rather than the strict interpretation you have used of a fan of the company. You're cynicism is also rather surprising, maybe you should go outside and smell a flower, watch a sunset and help a stranger and see if you can breath some fresh life into your soul."

I'm just being honest. How many self proclaimed 'BIO fan' buy every single product BIO sells?

I'm oftena ccused of being a BIO 'fanboy' because I'm usually supportive of their games and get flak for it.

Yet, I have not bought and or played S;RPG, SS, or MDK2. I've skipped over the vast majority of the non free DLCs or NWN nonton disc PMs. I don't buy all their game oriented knick knacks include their DA/ME focused novels.

Hence, I'm not a BIO 'fan' nor am I loyal to them or their games at all. i'm loyal to myself and what i want out of games. It's why I won't be buying the KOTOR MMO b/c I'm not a big fan of MMOs though I might try it if there's a monthf ree susbscription but I don't foresee myself being a long term customer for that.

We're potential or former customers. That's it. You cannot buy or sell loyalty. I'm loyal to my family and friends because it can't be bought.

That's not cynical. Just fact.

[randName]

Volourn wrote...
That's not cynical. Just fact.

I think your avatar speaks for it self here.