95 réponses à ce sujet

[Merced652]

Plenty of choices, but the lesson DA2 taught us is that none of them matter.

[Medet]

Jangocat wrote...

Medet wrote...

I'm actually fine with the story having set outcomes, its hard to tell a dramatic story when you give the player too much choice.

What? If I remember correctly, in DA my fem wardon had the choice to let Allister die and take the throne, get him to marry the queen, marry him, get him to sleep with Morrigan to save everyone, or goe die myself. There were many different endings to that story and many twists along the way.

It just takes time and effort. All of biowares privious titles were less linier. In KOTOR there were 4 totally different stories playing male/female lights/darkside and that was an epic dramatic story. ME had a lot of different choices and endings as did DAO.

Don't get me wrong, I do love this game, I just wish it was less linier. But your premise that it's hard to tell a dramatic story if the player is given too many choices is wrong. It just takes more resources.

Well, DA:O was a better game :/

I stand by my statement. It is hard to tella dramatic story while giving out choices, the more choices the harded it gets.


DA2 had a rather quick developement time, adding all those branching paths increases the dificulty exponentialy. Not that it should technicaly excuse DA2 for being less than DA:O, but I at least understand it. I'm not saying DA2 shouldnt have had another year or two in developement but... well I guess I am. Blah. It's just perfectly fine compared to a non-BioWare game.

KOTOR is still far and away my favorite of BioWares games made in the console portable generation. I really, really miss having the option to be good or evil rather than friendly good or ***hat good.

[Caladors]

Clonedzero wrote...

you mean like my choice in DA:O of picking the templars over the mages that has pretty much absolutely 0 effect on the rest of the game? awesome choices like that? you know how the only real difference is change the unit type you get to summon in the end battle and epilogue slides? choices with real depth to them? like picking werewolves over dalish elves? you know choices that really change thing you know?

oh wait...

 
However your acts felt like they lead to something.
Often it was the minor quest updates that made it interesting, in dragon age origins.

In this it was.
You beat Meradith and run away.
The first had you ether using a dark way out so that no one dies.
Choosing someone else to die for you.
Or making the ultimate sacrifice.

With each of those choices the wrap up is some of the most epic pieces about it.
The funeral where Alistar balls his eyes out and your suddenly wondering where you can find Prozac is pretty epic.
Or what about the one where you see everyone off, everyone telling you how much they will miss you but they each have there parts.
And how you had your guts ripped out by Morgan because she left with your baby.

But here people fall by the way side and...
You hooked up with someone.
That's it.

[dreman9999]

Caladors wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

you mean like my choice in DA:O of picking the templars over the mages that has pretty much absolutely 0 effect on the rest of the game? awesome choices like that? you know how the only real difference is change the unit type you get to summon in the end battle and epilogue slides? choices with real depth to them? like picking werewolves over dalish elves? you know choices that really change thing you know?

oh wait...

 
However your acts felt like they lead to something.
Often it was the minor quest updates that made it interesting, in dragon age origins.

In this it was.
You beat Meradith and run away.
The first had you ether using a dark way out so that no one dies.
Choosing someone else to die for you.
Or making the ultimate sacrifice.

With each of those choices the wrap up is some of the most epic pieces about it.
The funeral where Alistar balls his eyes out and your suddenly wondering where you can find Prozac is pretty epic.
Or what about the one where you see everyone off, everyone telling you how much they will miss you but they each have there parts.
And how you had your guts ripped out by Morgan because she left with your baby.

But here people fall by the way side and...
You hooked up with someone.
That's it.

You did feel anything when the people you sided with turned on you?
You pick the side of the Mages....They can't be all blood mages?.....The first encanter turns out to be a blood mage and turns hims self in to a monster.
My be siding with the Temples is better. The head temple is not crazy.......Nope, she crazy and turn on you because of and over powered sword.
Is it great all your choice is walking into hell.

[Dangerfoot]

Merced652 wrote...

Plenty of choices, but the lesson DA2 taught us is that none of them matter.

Exactly.

Which is why I ask how Hawke was important. I didn't influence Anders to do what he did, that was all him. I kicked him out of my party. If anything Anders is the most important character in the Dragon Age universe, not Hawke. I was just there while stuff happened in a linear fashion around me.

[Tomark]

it has the effect of finishing the quest?

Deal with it, DA2 has lots of variety, much more than pretty much any other crpg i have seen (and i think i played almost all of them).

While there are usually only 2/3 ways to deal with quests, they all change something else in the future.

I mean, was there *any* difference in DA:O if you killed or told the bandits ambushing you when you arrive in lothering? and so on?

Exactly.

Which is why I ask how Hawke was important. I didn't
influence Anders to do what he did, that was all him. I kicked him out
of my party. If anything Anders is the most important character in the
Dragon Age universe, not Hawke. I was just there while stuff happened in
a linear fashion around me.

Yes, that's cool. I do wonder if it's possible to deal with anders first, but i really like the fact that you don't control everything. You have choices, and they change a lot, but those aren't the "epilogue arrive and oh, the changes are all in the 'soon retconned' lore".

Modifié par Tomark, 17 mars 2011 - 05:00 .

[Dangerfoot]

Tomark wrote...

it has the effect of finishing the quest?

Deal with it, DA2 has lots of variety, much more than pretty much any other crpg i have seen (and i think i played almost all of them).

While there are usually only 2/3 ways to deal with quests, they all change something else in the future.

I mean, was there *any* difference in DA:O if you killed or told the bandits ambushing you when you arrive in lothering? and so on?

You've got to by trolling.

Beat DAO more than once, then beat DA2 more than once. Come back and tell me DA2 has more important choices that vary the story.

[Tomark]

[quote]Dangerfoot wrote...

[quote]Tomark wrote...
]You've got to by trolling.

Beat DAO more than once, then beat DA2 more than once. Come back and tell me DA2 has more important choices that vary the story.

[/quote]

ok, told you?

DA:O choices are epilogue choices. I loved them, because it was a step in the right directions. I loved how there began a few changes like being able to kill a blacksmith or lettign a kid be possessed and so on.

However, none of the choices you ever made had any real impact on future quests. The 'exception' being if you are a mage and told blood-mage to run from redcliff castle, you will later have a 'quest' about him.

Honsestly, DA2 had an incredible bigger number of choices compared to DA:O, and they were done in a much more 'life' fashion.

While DA:O took a step in the right direction, so far i believe DA2 took another two.

[Lianaar]

"Yup. Go ahead and take the lady. No skin off my back." 
Arishok drags Isabela off.
The people: "..ooh. ahh." 
Meredith: "Well, it looks like we have a new champion!"

 "Champion" fits if you kill the Arishok in single combat, doesn't fit quite so much if your group kills him, and doesn't fit at all if you give Isabela over to him. 

I loved that comment and the non-verbal talk of Meredith in that situation. It was one of the best moments of the game for me. Meredith was a very smart woman. She wanted the power. And what were you?
- having apostate friends
- either being a mage or having a sister that is mage
- a noble family of Kirkwall (being noble doesn't go away with losing money and estate)
- you just saved the city
add to that
- there is no viscount
- there is no heir
- there is a hole of political power suddenly (a power she wants for herself)
- people will feel that someone who just saved them must be rewarded
..... who is the most logical choice for becoming the leader of Kirkwall? 

She gave you a position, a title: CHAMPION.
Pretty empty title, with no real meaning, no power. But people feel you are rewarded for your task and you no longer are up for position of viscont, since she rewarded you in the name of the city. And because you deserve the title, none asks what right she has to give you titles anyway? 
I found it politically a wonderfully manipulative and delightful idea.

[CitizenSnips]

Merced652 wrote...

Plenty of choices, but the lesson DA2 taught us is that none of them matter.

Basically.

[randallman]

Dangerfoot wrote...

Tomark wrote...

it has the effect of finishing the quest?

Deal with it, DA2 has lots of variety, much more than pretty much any other crpg i have seen (and i think i played almost all of them).

While there are usually only 2/3 ways to deal with quests, they all change something else in the future.

I mean, was there *any* difference in DA:O if you killed or told the bandits ambushing you when you arrive in lothering? and so on?

You've got to by trolling.

Beat DAO more than once, then beat DA2 more than once. Come back and tell me DA2 has more important choices that vary the story.

I think 'Deal with it' pretty much classified this as a trolljob :-)

One thing I've learned in life is that you can rarely, IF EVER, convince someone that their feelings are incorrect unless they specifically are asking the question.  Telling me to 'deal with it' is pretty much just that.

--Randall

Modifié par randallman, 17 mars 2011 - 05:10 .

[dreman9999]

Medet wrote...

Jangocat wrote...

Medet wrote...

I'm actually fine with the story having set outcomes, its hard to tell a dramatic story when you give the player too much choice.

What? If I remember correctly, in DA my fem wardon had the choice to let Allister die and take the throne, get him to marry the queen, marry him, get him to sleep with Morrigan to save everyone, or goe die myself. There were many different endings to that story and many twists along the way.

It just takes time and effort. All of biowares privious titles were less linier. In KOTOR there were 4 totally different stories playing male/female lights/darkside and that was an epic dramatic story. ME had a lot of different choices and endings as did DAO.

Don't get me wrong, I do love this game, I just wish it was less linier. But your premise that it's hard to tell a dramatic story if the player is given too many choices is wrong. It just takes more resources.

Well, DA:O was a better game :/

I stand by my statement. It is hard to tella dramatic story while giving out choices, the more choices the harded it gets.


DA2 had a rather quick developement time, adding all those branching paths increases the dificulty exponentialy. Not that it should technicaly excuse DA2 for being less than DA:O, but I at least understand it. I'm not saying DA2 shouldnt have had another year or two in developement but... well I guess I am. Blah. It's just perfectly fine compared to a non-BioWare game.

KOTOR is still far and away my favorite of BioWares games made in the console portable generation. I really, really miss having the option to be good or evil rather than friendly good or ***hat good.

DA:O has a very simple story. There the bad guy, go kill him or the world ends. Loghian was the only true veriaty. Turn DA:O had you learn about every side, But DA2 sides and as well as understood the other side as well. DA2 made question everything I did when I played it. Heck, ratting out the blood mage in the Prime Suspect quest get your Mother killed. Saving someone in one act can be your undoing in another. You saw all the faces of the mage and the Qun was completly explatin though actions allow. Even your companion have a choise to stay with you. The game even hasthe best developed charater in all of Bioware characters,even if it made him a horrible person.
In truth, I like DA2 complex moral questioning story more than DA:O straight save everyone story.

[LobselVith8]

Was there a choice with Ser Thrask? I know Grace asks Hawke to kill him, but does that mean the mages are free, or are they still captured later on?

[dreman9999]

mushoops86anjyl wrote...

Merced652 wrote...

Plenty of choices, but the lesson DA2 taught us is that none of them matter.

Basically.

Prime Suspect quest say other wise.

[Lianaar]

I found the main plot to be linear and the key events to be uninfluenced by my decision. However I was not bothered by this at all, since... hrm... an analogy: there are many ways a woman can get pregnant, and the end result is always the same: having a baby. However the how part determines everything about it.

So yes, the Arishock attacks, the idol ends up with Meredith, the Chantry blows up.... but it is still a totally different story being told each time.

I personally hope this is a sign of the Hawke story being continued, since if the key points match in all games it is easier to have a sequel. Less variety makes ongoing stories managable.

[Dangerfoot]

dreman9999 wrote...

mushoops86anjyl wrote...

Merced652 wrote...

Plenty of choices, but the lesson DA2 taught us is that none of them matter.

Basically.

Prime Suspect quest say other wise.

Kill Gascard -> Lilly Killer kills your mom.
Spare Gascard -> Lilly Killer kills your mom

I'm not seeing it.

[CitizenSnips]

dreman9999 wrote...

mushoops86anjyl wrote...

Merced652 wrote...

Plenty of choices, but the lesson DA2 taught us is that none of them matter.

Basically.

Prime Suspect quest say other wise.

Not really.

[dreman9999]

Lianaar wrote...

I found the main plot to be linear and the key events to be uninfluenced by my decision. However I was not bothered by this at all, since... hrm... an analogy: there are many ways a woman can get pregnant, and the end result is always the same: having a baby. However the how part determines everything about it.

So yes, the Arishock attacks, the idol ends up with Meredith, the Chantry blows up.... but it is still a totally different story being told each time.

I personally hope this is a sign of the Hawke story being continued, since if the key points match in all games it is easier to have a sequel. Less variety makes ongoing stories managable.

This more of a story of " A giant title wave is coming and there's not I can do to stop it."

[Dangerfoot]

Lianaar wrote...

I found the main plot to be linear and the key events to be uninfluenced by my decision. However I was not bothered by this at all, since... hrm... an analogy: there are many ways a woman can get pregnant, and the end result is always the same: having a baby. However the how part determines everything about it.

So yes, the Arishock attacks, the idol ends up with Meredith, the Chantry blows up.... but it is still a totally different story being told each time.

I personally hope this is a sign of the Hawke story being continued, since if the key points match in all games it is easier to have a sequel. Less variety makes ongoing stories managable.

Yeah, I too hope that this was all done to give us a good plot for DA3. I don't think I'm alone when I say I'd rather see DA3 be a big, several different ending conclusion to the series (or at the very least Hawke's part in the series), than see them make another game where you end up in the exact same place in every playthrough just so they can make another game.

[dreman9999]

x

Modifié par dreman9999, 17 mars 2011 - 05:28 .

[Mahtisonni]

The thing that mostly bothered me that pretty much all "choices" in the main story line were pretty much like this.
1. Calm/soothing response
2. Mocking response
3. Angry response

All saying the same thing with different tone of voice.
WHY WOULDN'T YOU LET ME BUTCHER MOTHER PEATRICE?!?!?
Seriously I can understand that I weren't allowed to kill him at first encounter for further story developement, but at least after killing the son of the Viscount Hawke should gain enough motivation to stab her in the face.

[Medet]

dreman9999 wrote...

Medet wrote...

Jangocat wrote...

Medet wrote...

I'm actually fine with the story having set outcomes, its hard to tell a dramatic story when you give the player too much choice.

What? If I remember correctly, in DA my fem wardon had the choice to let Allister die and take the throne, get him to marry the queen, marry him, get him to sleep with Morrigan to save everyone, or goe die myself. There were many different endings to that story and many twists along the way.

It just takes time and effort. All of biowares privious titles were less linier. In KOTOR there were 4 totally different stories playing male/female lights/darkside and that was an epic dramatic story. ME had a lot of different choices and endings as did DAO.

Don't get me wrong, I do love this game, I just wish it was less linier. But your premise that it's hard to tell a dramatic story if the player is given too many choices is wrong. It just takes more resources.

Well, DA:O was a better game :/

I stand by my statement. It is hard to tella dramatic story while giving out choices, the more choices the harded it gets.


DA2 had a rather quick developement time, adding all those branching paths increases the dificulty exponentialy. Not that it should technicaly excuse DA2 for being less than DA:O, but I at least understand it. I'm not saying DA2 shouldnt have had another year or two in developement but... well I guess I am. Blah. It's just perfectly fine compared to a non-BioWare game.

KOTOR is still far and away my favorite of BioWares games made in the console portable generation. I really, really miss having the option to be good or evil rather than friendly good or ***hat good.

DA:O has a very simple story. There the bad guy, go kill him or the world ends. Loghian was the only true veriaty. Turn DA:O had you learn about every side, But DA2 sides and as well as understood the other side as well. DA2 made question everything I did when I played it. Heck, ratting out the blood mage in the Prime Suspect quest get your Mother killed. Saving someone in one act can be your undoing in another. You saw all the faces of the mage and the Qun was completly explatin though actions allow. Even your companion have a choise to stay with you. The game even hasthe best developed charater in all of Bioware characters,even if it made him a horrible person.
In truth, I like DA2 complex moral questioning story more than DA:O straight save everyone story.

Yes, DA2 presented some interesting moral ambiguities, but none of the choices really effected anything.

No matter what you did in Prime Suspect your mother dies. You can't not save Grace in Act 1, I tried. Almost every "choice" you make in DA2 has a set outcome regardless of the choice you made. The only exceptions are regarding companion loyalty, including your sibling. I suppose there are a few others scattered around, Isabella and the Arishok being one, but not many.

[Dangerfoot]

dreman9999 wrote...

Dangerfoot wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

mushoops86anjyl wrote...

Merced652 wrote...

Plenty of choices, but the lesson DA2 taught us is that none of them matter.

Basically.

Prime Suspect quest say other wise.

Kill Gascard -> Lilly Killer kills your mom.
Spare Gascard -> Lilly Killer kills your mom

I'm not seeing it.

You only get the  all All that Remains quest if you kill Gascard.

I'm pretty sure I got it both ways. Either way, none of the "extra quests" really had any impact on the major plot details.

[bobo_minky]

Moondoggie wrote...

Well not so much the lack of choices but the lack of them having any impact whatsoever on anything. Like no matter how you handle the situation with the Arishock you have to kill him and no matter how you handle the situation with the murder suspect your mother always gets killed. I guess they were really excited about these plot points and wanted to force them  upon you, These are just some examples and there's a lot more situations where the story is completely set in stone and your "choices" are just roundabout ways of getting the same result...

Agreed. The DA2 story is much more linear than DA1's.

I think this is party because in DA2, Bioware was attempting some sort of Action RPG hybrid. Any of us familiar with Action games will know they essentially follow a linear story. That's ok, though, because a.) we don't expect much choice because it's an Action game, and b.) we're provided with interesting and challenging enemies to beat down, using complex combos and tactics that we learn and figure out along the way. In an action game, as long as the story told is internally consistent and somewhat original and enjoyable, most gamers will end up having a good time.

I really believe that with DA2, the wrong approach was taken with the creation of the game. Instead of building a good, solid action game, and enriching it with RPG elements, they came from a classic RPG background with DA1, from which they took AWAY RPG elements, and tacked on some Action type features. This left the game feeling shallow and linear in RPG terms, and frustrating in Action terms.

Modifié par bobo_minky, 17 mars 2011 - 05:30 .