52 réponses à ce sujet

[cynicalsaint1]

Alright I'm going to have to let off some steam here.

BioWare - if you guys are listening, what were you thinking when you designed the duel with the Arishok? Its like you wanted it to be like an action game's boss fight only DA2 isn't an action game so it works out terribly.

Maybe it wouldn't have been so bad if it didn't take so long to chip through his health, or he didn't chug down Health Potions, but seriously the fight is nothing but tedious. All you do is try run behind him while he attacks and get in a few attacks of your own before he turns around, over, and over, and over, and over again.

To make things worse the hit boxes on the attacks seem wonky and attacks I was sure I was out of the way of would still hit at times, either that or its not completely clear when the attack is "active" (see this is why the trying to make it like an action game fails, in something like DMC you know when the enemies attacks are active and can do damage, while its really hard to tell in DA2 - also why the hell am I concerned about hit boxes and active frames in a game like DA2 in the first place?). Then if you do take a hit you'd better start praying because at this point its up to luck whether or not you end up getting locked down by repeated knock-downs without being given a chance to get back up. Fustrating as hell.

Of course most of my skills were useless the only thing that got anything resembling a respectable amount of damage was Assassinate, Backstab could be semi-useful as a way to dodge his attacks, but not much damage so I usually just ran behind him saving my stamina for Assassinate. Explosive Strike is utterly useless because for some reason your chain refuses to build normally and constantly resets itself. Fatiguing Fog never seemed to actually effect him, and Miamic Flash rarely works and if it does never keeps him stunned long enough to make a difference.  The worse part, the only actually usefull attack I seemed to have, Assassinate, had to be timed perfectly in order to be done with the attack animation before the Arishok turned around and knocked me on my ass. Things like Pinpoint Strikes and Mark of Death? Useless because I actually have time to attack for such a small part of their duration they really don't do much for me.

It turned the fight into a long, tedious, extradonarily fustrating affair. Really in a game like DA2 it seems like proper use of your abilities should be what decides the fight not how well you can run around in circles for 15min. Yeah I get that the Arishok is supposed to be one tough mother, but it just seems like duel was poorly designed to me. Most of my abilities proved to be useless, and the actual strategy you have to use is extremely tedious given how long you have to keep it up for. Add in his almost instant "grab" atttack, and being locked down by knock down and the fustration factor just sky rockets.

Okay. I'm done now. /rant.
Its probably worth noting that I am enjoying the game for the most part, I just needed to get that off my chest.
I feel better now.

Modifié par cynicalsaint1, 17 mars 2011 - 03:48 .

[Boradam]

You realize you could have, you know, not duel him?

Notice the 'Boss' in 'Boss Fight', I don't know what you mean when it's an action game boss.

[cynicalsaint1]

Boradam wrote...

You realize you could have, you know, not duel him?

Notice the 'Boss' in 'Boss Fight', I don't know what you mean when it's an action game boss.

I fail to see your point. Having an option to not duel him doesn't suddenly excuse the fact that option to duel him leads to a poorly designed fight.

What I mean by it 'Action Game Boss' is that the way you fight him - actively trying to evade his attacks is more akin to what you'd expect to be doing in an action game like say Devil May Cry or something. And while I have no problem with those kinds of games it just doesn't work well in DA2 because DA2 really isn't geared towards that kind of gameplay.

And I don't disagree that the fight should be tough, but making almost all of my talents worthless, and having a strategy comes down to "Run around in a circle" just sucks.

[kyles3]

I think they over-corrected in response to the duel with Loghain being too easy in DA:O. But instead of making the Arishok duel a challenge, they just made it tedious.

Modifié par kyles3, 17 mars 2011 - 04:05 .

[Rawrimsarah]

I dont know about you guys but I loved running around in circles waiting for my spells to go off cooldown while my dog slowly nipped at his knees. But damn did I enjoy cassandras reaction. " She killed the arishok in one on one combat ?!?!" Damn straight I did

[azarhal]

Rawrimsarah wrote...

I dont know about you guys but I loved running around in circles waiting for my spells to go off cooldown while my dog slowly nipped at his knees. But damn did I enjoy cassandras reaction. " She killed the arishok in one on one combat ?!?!" Damn straight I did

/high5

You just need to learn the "tempo" of his attacks when you are a mage.

[jbadm04]

Amen to that cynicalsaint, I have an assassin too, with same problems (and wanted to write a similar post). Btw, you dont have such problems with a "tank" (warrior -defender) like character, who have immunity to knockdown and knockback, there is also equipment granting such and this turns the Arishok fight into... well, like stomping on ants. To summarize this: BioWare is good at storytelling etc (I love DAO ME ME2 DA2 JadeEmpire, old KOTR , DeadSpace), but as always they totaly fail at gameplay balance (character classes, fights etc).

[MColes]

Defender talents don't stop the Arishok's knockdowns or knockbacks. It only stops the knockback on his normal attacks that hit with such physical force that you get knocks back. His charge is a 100% knockdown if it hits.

Also, it's quite clear to see which of his attacks are which. When he does a double flourish it's a wide area 360 degree attack. Just like we don't physically hit everything with whirlwind, we have talents that extend the range of our moves. I agree they shouldn't have had it so long and tedious, maybe break it up a bit with phases and changing tactics. But doing the same 4 motions for half an hour is too much.

[DrekorSilverfang]

Tactics(aka running in circles!) has always been important. That's why the game lets you pause and issue commands. At least you aren't swinging away and chasing someone running in circles. The Arishok must be PISSED after fighting people.

[bluedevil99]

kyles3 wrote...

I think they over-corrected in response to the duel with Loghain being too easy in DA:O. But instead of making the Arishok duel a challenge, they just made it tedious.

I think this statement would be true if you replaced "duel with Loghain" with any number of boss fights from Origins that people claimed were too easy, for example "fight with the Sloth Demon" and replaced "Arishok duel" with any number of things from DA2, for example "Rockwraith fight".

[cynicalsaint1]

MColes wrote...

Also, it's quite clear to see which of his attacks are which. When he does a double flourish it's a wide area 360 degree attack. Just like we don't physically hit everything with whirlwind, we have talents that extend the range of our moves.

The problem  here is that there's any clear indication of what the hit box for the move actually is as they obviously extend beyond the area his weapons actually occupy, and when the attack is actually active. If I were playing something like DMC I'd know if I took a hit immediately, not dodge the attack and then take the hit a second later because there's a delay between when the game checks to see if you're in range for the attack and when it actually affects you.

[SuicidalBaby]

The fight is pretty bogus.

Did anyone else happen to notice that he couldn't charge attack with the dog in front of him? I love the dog.

[StuartMarshall]

I think the Arishok just dies of dizziness in the end from running around in circles after you while you wait for the potion cooldown to end.

[SlamminHams]

bluedevil99 wrote...

kyles3 wrote...

I think they over-corrected in response to the duel with Loghain being too easy in DA:O. But instead of making the Arishok duel a challenge, they just made it tedious.

I think this statement would be true if you replaced "duel with Loghain" with any number of boss fights from Origins that people claimed were too easy, for example "fight with the Sloth Demon" and replaced "Arishok duel" with any number of things from DA2, for example "Rockwraith fight".

No boss fight except the final boss of Awakening gave me trouble on any difficulty in DAO/A.

I welcome the difficulty on some of the boss fights in DA2.  Given, only Hybris and the Rock Wraith are actually difficult and the fact the difficulty tappers off towards the middle-to-end of the game, but that's just a byproduct of getting endgame gear, more talents, etc etc.

[SuicidalBaby]

But this fight isn't difficult, it's tedious and lame.

[Naitaka]

Agreed, it's extremely easy to dodge his attacks. But having to do it 1238959123 times on nightmare is simply tedious and well...lame. Especially since I played a two-handed warrior, imagine how painful that was.

[Parrk]

I have read countless of these threads about the Arishok and every one say the same thing:

"I couldn't be bothered to buy a few frag grenades."

Not every fight has to use the same dynamics. This happened to be a mage's fight. I think most in the game fall squarely into the rogue and Warrior arena. As a mage on normal you nevver have to move once during that fight. I was landing winter's grasp freezes at least 50% of the time and crushing prison was proccing immobilizing effect most of the time as well.

This is in stark contrast to my rogue that actually had to kick miasmic flask around corners for 5 mins.

Regardless of the class though, this fight is much like the old king hippo fight from mike tyson punch out.

He throws very obvious tells prior to ever movement. When you see it.....strafe.

It may be arduous, but it is not difficult.


Oh and the frag grenades...100% -5 second stuns on every mob in the game.


tl,dr: Mage fight not the funnest when playing rogue, but that's ok.

[cynicalsaint1]

SuicidialBaby wrote...

But this fight isn't difficult, it's tedious and lame.

Exactly this. What you're doing is essentially not hard, its just that you have to do it over and over and over and over, and a single mistake costs you a ton. Also note that running in circles and chipping away at an enemies health doesn't make for a very fun or exciting duel.

In  the interest of providing some constructive criticism some things I think can be done to improve the duel:

1. Ditch the potion chugging - I don't see the point of this. It just prolongs an already painfully long fight, and makes it harder to gauge how well you're progressing through the fight. Give the dude however much HP you think he needs and leave it at that.

2. Maybe give a class specific buff for the duel. For example, for Rogues maybe it could significantly boost your damage when you're behind the Arishok. It could also help make your abilities more effective, and maybe reduce cooldowns so you could actually use them more often - as this is a one on one fight you're not managing multiple party members' cooldowns anymore - this would also help to speed up the fight, make things a bit less tedious, and make things a bit more exciting. On that note increasing stamina regen wouldn't hurt either - though I was generally ok on that between Restoration Potions and Stamina Draughts.

3. It probably a bit late to impliment but I think the idea of mutliple phases has merit, maybe give each phase its own health bar, and auto-save between them to make dying a little less fustrating (nothing sucks more than dying after 20min of battle only to have to start from scratch). Could also add in some cool battle bantar or something.

4. For Rogue in particular make Unforgiving Chain actually work. Not only is it a powerful passive ability, its also the key to one of your more powerful activated abilities; being unable to build up your chain is a rather painful nerf for a Rogue.

I agree that the Arishok should be a challenge - but it should be a challenge where you win by making your class shine. As it is its just tedious repitiion and gives you little opportunity (at least for Rogue - I can't speak for the other classes so much) to actually do what you're ostensibly supposed to be good at doing.

I have read countless of these threads about the Arishok and every one say the same thing:

"I couldn't be bothered to buy a few frag grenades."

Yeah thats great when you know the fight is coming and to stock up on them beforehand, but as it was I only had a few left on hand when I got to the fight. Also as I've repeated multiple times in this thread my problem isn't with the fight being challenging  - its with it being long and tedious.

Modifié par cynicalsaint1, 17 mars 2011 - 06:32 .

[Parrk]

I agree that it seems silly for a "champion" to have to run away and pillar-hump for 10 mins, but this is a duel against a melee boss. I'm just really happy the pillars are there to hump.

Given the boss is melee, there is little they could do to make it less tedious without weakening him. Ancient rock wraith is no different really. IT is redundant and not particularly elegant in its presentation.

How do you make a solo fight challenging versus a worthy opponent? This fight beats the crap out of the arena duel in NWN2, of that much I am positive.

[cynicalsaint1]

Parrk wrote...

How do you make a solo fight challenging versus a worthy opponent?

Well I listed a few ideas above. Basically I'd look for ways to make your class abilities useful in the fight, maybe change up the parameters of the battle a little depending on Hawke's class so that the fight plays a bit better to the strengths of your class, and get rid of the potion chugging - that does nothing but artificially lengthen the fight.

[SuicidalBaby]

Could also add in some cool battle bantar or something.

He taunts you through out the fight. Let him knock you down early, hopefully you dont die. You get a different line about "that's all you have?" When you really hit him for a good chunk he says, "Yes, we learn from everything you do!" Or some such.

[jedighost0]

Cynicalsaint you make awesome points. This fight is broken period. I played with a rogue ranger and I can not begin to tell you how much this fight dragged. side note I thinke the ranger has like 2 second delay in action commands.

[jedighost0]

This fight is broken. Mages maybe have it easier warriors can time attacks better but rogues and archers just get owned if you don't expliot the arishok ramming his goat horns inot the wall.

[cynicalsaint1]

SuicidialBaby wrote...

Could also add in some cool battle bantar or something.

He taunts you through out the fight. Let him knock you down early, hopefully you dont die. You get a different line about "that's all you have?" When you really hit him for a good chunk he says, "Yes, we learn from everything you do!" Or some such.

I meant more back and forth between the Arishok and Hawke, rather than just having the Arishok shouting taunts.

[Adhin]

I think they made every major boss fight tedious. I don't enjoy them that much as the HP bars are just absurdly long. I feel like im playing an incredibly frustrating WoW raid, with out the other 30+ people to bull**** with over voice chat to keep it from tearing away at my sanity.

Going 10 minutes to see a 10% hp decrease is just...it hurts. And the Arishock is one cheat SOB with another retardedly giant HP pool. Just don't feel like much progress is made on the HP is all. bosses in normal packs take a good while to kill as is, even just double there HP would be less painful to deal with then what Dragons and Arishock have.