52 réponses à ce sujet

[RubiconI7]

cynicalsaint1 wrote...

Boradam wrote...

You realize you could have, you know, not duel him?

Notice the 'Boss' in 'Boss Fight', I don't know what you mean when it's an action game boss.

I fail to see your point. Having an option to not duel him doesn't suddenly excuse the fact that option to duel him leads to a poorly designed fight.

What I mean by it 'Action Game Boss' is that the way you fight him - actively trying to evade his attacks is more akin to what you'd expect to be doing in an action game like say Devil May Cry or something. And while I have no problem with those kinds of games it just doesn't work well in DA2 because DA2 really isn't geared towards that kind of gameplay.

And I don't disagree that the fight should be tough, but making almost all of my talents worthless, and having a strategy comes down to "Run around in a circle" just sucks.

Cynnical indeed...

Anyway, you should try with poisons, the tar bomb and evade. Once you get the hang of it, you can probably do this..I was pretty amazed when I saw it..This video shows how to fight him with an action/RPG hybrid method..



I do agree that the hitboxes were pretty wierd but I do not understand how you would say your abilities does nothing.

Modifié par RubiconI7, 17 mars 2011 - 09:33 .

[cynicalsaint1]

RubiconI7 wrote...

Anyway, you should try with poisons, the tar bomb and evade. Once you get the hang of it, you can probably do this..I was pretty amazed when I saw it..This video shows how to fight him with an action/RPG hybrid method..



I do agree that the hitboxes were pretty wierd but I do not understand how you would say your abilities does nothing.

You seem to misunderstand my purpose here. I already finished the fight, I know how to play it. I was using Might Potion, Debilitating Poison, and the few Frag Grenades I had left. I already very clearly explained how my abilities were useless in the fight in my original post on an ability by ability basis even. Hell if you watch the video you just posted you'll notice that the guy isn't using any of his abilities either - the only difference being he has a sustained that I don't have on, and I had Assassinate which can actually be used for a comparatively decent amount of damage.

EDIT:
To be a bit more clear - I mainly want to discuss whats wrong with the fight, why, and how it might be fixed here. You know in the hopes that either it can be patched, or next time they decide to make a duel like this it can be made better. 

Modifié par cynicalsaint1, 17 mars 2011 - 09:58 .

[Kathila]

With a certain setup (on normal, mind you, I didn't try to do this on nightmare) it's possible to go toe to toe with him and not do any kiting at all.

[Ethereal Llama]

The fight is terribly designed, no one can argue that. As far as fixing it's concerned, they're sure as hell not going to patch the whole sequence. I think some kind of 4v4 battle with him having badass hero style lieutenants would've been better. Then again I went spirit healer and force mage for specs, so two of my full trees did nothing against him. Cone of ice worked wonders and I'm sure I could've kited him for 45 minutes but after attempt 2 on hard I just declined the duel. The hitbox issue and repeated knockdowns was too frustrating. Act 2 felt rushed and unpolished, I'm hoping act 3 is cleaner but it's probably worse. That said I love the game regardless

[Weskerr]

This fight is very difficult for melee classes. For a mage it's not difficult at all.

[DogPark]

Here's what I don't get from those of you who are complaining. You're a ROGUE. Duel? One on one?? Forget it! That's not how you operate. That's fighting on his terms and giving up all your advantages. Have you learned nothing from Isabella?

My Rogue flatly turned him down and then my entire party jumped him. That's Rogue style. I'm glad Bioware gave us that option. Made for a much more epic fight.

[Scars Unseen]

DogPark wrote...

Here's what I don't get from those of you who are complaining. You're a ROGUE. Duel? One on one?? Forget it! That's not how you operate. That's fighting on his terms and giving up all your advantages. Have you learned nothing from Isabella?

It's funny that you mentioned Isabella since she wanted to duel the Arishok herself.  She also talks about dueling almost as much as she talks about ships and getting laid.  And in Origins she quite explicitly identified herself as a duelist.  Sooo....  probably not the best example.

[Foolsfolly]

I wish they took a page out of the other BioWare teams' efforts to make interesting boss battles.

Mass Effect 1 boss battles were best summed up like this: keep hitting it. It'll die eventually.

Mass Effect 2 boss fights were simply: Warp/Overload its defenses down, headshot until it's dead.

However, the DLC Lair of the Shadow Broker finally gave us some decent boss battles. The final boss with the Shadow Broker is the one I'm talking about. The Shadow Broker has an omi-tool riot shield that covers most of his body and fires a near constant stream of machine gun fire. You hurt him enough and run up to him to melee to begin the next stage of the battle.

The Arishok battle could be very much the same. Have it in stages broken up by small cinematics. This is the ARISHOK vs the Champion. The fight should look cooler than just basic attacks mixed with kiting.

Like the Broker an attack to the front should be avoided, hitting him in a flanking position should do extra damage or grant abilities. Then after taking down enough health a cinematic shows Hawke battling the Arishok. This can be used to change skins on the Arishok (like cutting off one of the big guy's horns) or cause an environmental change (breaking a pillar, tossing a bench, whatever).

It would have broken up the fight, given it a sense of epicness since it's not just a long basic fight, and generally would have been better than the fight as is.

Still, enjoyed the fight because I really enjoyed the Arishok. He's too epic to not duel one-on-one. He deserves nothing else.

[Seblin]

Worst fight in the game, so boring. I completely agree with the OP.

Running in circles in not a tactic, its just lame. Honestly though you can use the running around tactic with any boss fight in the game, just use a lot of ranged characters and no boss is difficult.

There are more enjoyable fights with the swarms or mercs in Kirkwall than this one was.

[L33TDAWG]

I dueled him once as a mage, which was just boring, and then I had to kill everything in the room, but my party survived, so he went down easily.

[Satyricon331]

I agree with the people who hated this fight. A battle where you have to run around for so much of the time, not using abilities or doing anything else fun, needs a redesign. Requiring the player to dodge some incoming blows makes sense, but the point is to have fun, and kiting and running with your tail between your legs is far from what a good computer duel should be.

[cynicalsaint1]

DogPark wrote...

Have you learned nothing from Isabella?

....
Isabela?
The character who teaches you the Duelist specialization for Rogues in DA:O?
Who is introduced in DA2 with a quest where she wants you watch her back in an upcoming duel she's going to have?
You're not very good at this, are you?

Modifié par cynicalsaint1, 18 mars 2011 - 02:34 .

[Nathan Redgrave]

bluedevil99 wrote...

I think this statement would be true if you replaced "duel with Loghain" with any number of boss fights from Origins that people claimed were too easy, for example "fight with the Sloth Demon" and replaced "Arishok duel" with any number of things from DA2, for example "Rockwraith fight".

Well, it's more relevant when you mention the Loghain duel. In that event, Loghain was easier by far than the possible full-party boss fight you may or may not have fought just before it, depending on your actions regarding Anora. What some fail to realize is, you can only make a boss so powerful before a single-party fight becomes unreasonable, so yes, the duel with Loghain was easy... or moderately hard, or hard, depending on who actually fights him, but as a straight up warrior fight, yes, it's easy. Because that's how it has to be with this kind of gameplay system and a one-on-one duel as the concept.

The Arishok was an attempt at a harder one-on-one battle, but the system doesn't really allow for that sort of fight to be reasonable, and correcting the aspects of the system that make it unreasonable would have upset the balance of what they wanted the game to play like as a whole. That you can only do this with Hawke regardless of his/her class makes it even less reasonable; at least with Loghain, you could shove the duty off to Sten or Alistair if you thought the Warden was ill-suited to a one-on-one bout with a heavily armed warrior.

Ultimately, the more satisfying Arishok boss is actually the one where your party fights the entire room at once--it's exactly the kind of battle the system was designed for.

[TcheQ]

the fight is nothing but tedious.

This happened 100 times on nightmare.  I just got bored.  If it were a different battle, it would be fine but I was just sick of redoing the same battle over and over because some nubcake instakills me.

Bioware made the option to change difficulty midway through for that reason.

i.e. if they **cked up the difficulty

I thought that particular battle extra lame since there was so much about the Arishok that was "honor" and then he just attacks you with 20 guys.  Greeeeaat....

[cynicalsaint1]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

Ultimately, the more satisfying Arishok boss is actually the one where your party fights the entire room at once--it's exactly the kind of battle the system was designed for.

Yeah but at the same time its hard to turn down a duel with the Qunari's top badass. I mean that's just awesome. I think there's definitely a place for these kinds of battles, they just need to figure out how to make them work better.

Foolsfolly wrote...

However, the DLC Lair of the Shadow Broker finally gave us some decent
boss battles. The final boss with the Shadow Broker is the one I'm
talking about. The Shadow Broker has an omi-tool riot shield that covers
most of his body and fires a near constant stream of machine gun fire.
You hurt him enough and run up to him to melee to begin the next stage
of the battle.

I really think this sort of system would work well in a DA-style game as well. That way it wouldn't hurt as much if an individual phase of the battle felt easy. Having the check points in the fight would make a death easier to swallow.

[RubiconI7]

cynicalsaint1 wrote...

RubiconI7 wrote...

Anyway, you should try with poisons, the tar bomb and evade. Once you get the hang of it, you can probably do this..I was pretty amazed when I saw it..This video shows how to fight him with an action/RPG hybrid method..



I do agree that the hitboxes were pretty wierd but I do not understand how you would say your abilities does nothing.

You seem to misunderstand my purpose here. I already finished the fight, I know how to play it. I was using Might Potion, Debilitating Poison, and the few Frag Grenades I had left. I already very clearly explained how my abilities were useless in the fight in my original post on an ability by ability basis even. Hell if you watch the video you just posted you'll notice that the guy isn't using any of his abilities either - the only difference being he has a sustained that I don't have on, and I had Assassinate which can actually be used for a comparatively decent amount of damage.

EDIT:
To be a bit more clear - I mainly want to discuss whats wrong with the fight, why, and how it might be fixed here. You know in the hopes that either it can be patched, or next time they decide to make a duel like this it can be made better. 

I see, sorry for not reading all of the posts.
Then I guess we differ on the fundumentals. I thought the duel, alebit not as good as it can be, is still exciting. It was very different from what I've expected. The first time I tried I thought it was going to be easy as this is an RPG and you hardly see designers pit in duels like this.

For me then, It was different and I thought it was pretty fun to play within that limitation the designers gave you.

[DogPark]

cynicalsaint1 wrote...

DogPark wrote...

Have you learned nothing from Isabella?

....
Isabela?
The character who teaches you the Duelist specialization for Rogues in DA:O?
Who is introduced in DA2 with a quest where she wants you watch her back in an upcoming duel she's going to have?
You're not very good at this, are you?

My lord, does no one have a sense of humor on this board?  My comment was clearly meant to be a joke.

[cynicalsaint1]

DogPark wrote...

My lord, does no one have a sense of humor on this board?  My comment was clearly meant to be a joke.

Its hard to hear sarcasm in text, and given the vast amount of stupidedness most of us have come to expect from the internet it can be hard to tell when someone is just being dumb or kidding around.

This what we have emoticons for

[kyles3]

RubiconI7 wrote...

I thought the duel, alebit not as good as it can be, is still exciting. It was very different from what I've expected. The first time I tried I thought it was going to be easy as this is an RPG and you hardly see designers pit in duels like this.

For me then, It was different and I thought it was pretty fun to play within that limitation the designers gave you.

Yeah, I agree with this sentiment. At the end of the day, winning the duel is Hawke's crowning moment of awesome and I'd rather be frustrated with the fight than not have it go down at all.

[Taritu]

DogPark wrote...

Here's what I don't get from those of you who are complaining. You're a ROGUE. Duel? One on one?? Forget it! That's not how you operate. That's fighting on his terms and giving up all your advantages. Have you learned nothing from Isabella?

My Rogue flatly turned him down and then my entire party jumped him. That's Rogue style. I'm glad Bioware gave us that option. Made for a much more epic fight.

Uh yeah, right, there's an entire spec called "duelist", but I can't duel?

The fight isn't hard, it's just boring as hell.

[Mechwarrior0085]

Yea, I hated the Dragon Boss Fight the most, now that was tedious.

[Caoimhe04]

I got glitched the first time I dueled him and I was pissed because he had a little bit over 30% health remaining. I got impaled and the game dropped me on the upper platform on the right behind the railing where you can't get back down since you can't open any of the doors; nor could I hit him because I couldn't see him to target him since he was standing beneath me.

Although the duel was tedious; I actually preferred that way because there was no way in hell that I could beat him on hard without dueling him. The number of Qunari in the room were kicking my butt before I could even take out the Sarabbas mages and I was getting pissed.

[Gaus5000]

Hm, I dont know, I actually had no problems with that boss (on NM of course). I just froze -> brittle (yeah, kinda lucky, I know) -> Assasinate (I think it was something like 13.000 damage); cant remember if that was enough, but in case he lived that, I just shield bash into Explosive Strike him and send him home crying.

[TeamLexana]

I am a little bummed that I don't get to actually fight fight him. Just run around in circles till he charges and gets stuck in a wall or one of the pillars then quickly attack him for a second and then run off again. It's kind of embarassing too. How'd the Champion of Kirkwall defeat the Arishok? She.. weelll.. ran around alot, lol.

Maybe when I roll a warrior, I'll get more satisfying fight out of him but as it stands my rogue and mage were both way too fragile to fight fair.

[Grunk]

It kind of reminded me of the opposite of the final fight in Jade Empire. Except instead of me doing a neverending combo of death, I just ran around a bit, then hit him. I wish the environment came into play more, like I'd need to lure him into running into a pillar, then he'd be dazed and I could hit for big damage or something.

I did find it fairly dull.