214 réponses à ce sujet

[Sphynx118]

Ingrimm22 wrote...

ftg wrote...

Wow you play a lot of rpgs, good for you. You said combat is more complex and refined? That means nothing without support, so please, explain. The one issue you are willing to admit, the reuse of levels, you don't care about anyway, and then rave about BioWare's ability to drive story, and their rock solid battle engine? Cool. Also thanks for telling us that "vast worlds" are a thing of the past. I don't think most of us got that memo.

Combat:
1. Combat now includes much more complex encounters and the means to deal with them
2. Spell and Skill-Synergies actually make sense and are useful now.
3. Skillexecution is now immediate and feels much more visceral (i admit this is more of an aesthetic issue)
4. You can actually dodge now therefore Movement and placement is much more important.
5. Skilltrees now consist of "bread & butter" only, not many filler-skills or boring ones.

Reuse of Levels:
1. Everyone pretended that there are 5 maps and that's it, which is laughable.
2. Artdirection > Mapvariety. If for budgetreasons i as a developer have the choice between fewer but better looking maps or more but less refined maps i'd choose the first option anytime.
3. The Maps are few but are brimming with content, a little thing that no one seems to acknowledge. Oblivion, 2 Worlds, Arcania, Gothic etc. have huge worlds but massive stretches of landscpaes where there is absolutley NOTHING to do.

didn't get the memo about "vast worlds are a thing of the past":
Look at the market, the demands and the budgets and think again.

No one is pretending that theres only 5 maps. There are only like 5 maps lol. Open your fanboi eyes for once.

Just because they close the cave off at certain points to make it seem different doesnt change that its obviously the same damn cave you are running through for the 45th time.

And fewer but better quality maps? Again. You on crack son???

That would be ok if the maps actually ARE that much higher quality as you make them sound like they are

[Aidunno]

Took me a couple of respecs to get rogue working well. I think this is another difference between DAO and DA2. Choices of skills in DA2 can have major consequences as you play whereas in DAO, so long as you had a couple of specifc skills you were fine.

[neppakyo]

(the animations do suck for them tho )

Rogues shouldn't be a "DPS Monster". They should be ones that skirt the edges of battle, engage an enemy, skirt off to the next one.. *sigh* I suck at writing, guess my point is, they shouldn't have more powerful attacks than warriors, or do more damage. And the traps and locks are a joke. Increase cunning *shakes head* I miss investing skills into "lock picking"

(The rogue I made did insane amount of damage)

[Ingrimm22]

ftg wrote...
I agree with your points 2-5 to a certain extent, but disagree with 1, since the means really is mashing the attack button and whatever special moves are refreshed between cooldowns. Sure you can choose to play the game more tactically but it's not necessary, which is the problem. In either case, I didn't like DAO either, but for me, this felt like a poor man's God of War.

Re: areas, look at something like WoW, or Assassin's Creed for a non MMO. I don't understand how level exploration is a thing of the past, or how art direction and map variety would be nearly as counterbalanced as you seem to imply. If the art assets exist, I can't imagine it would break budget to use use them and change position of layouts for a couple extra maps.

It is necessary to play strategically if you choose to play it on hard or nightmare which i did in DA:O and in DA 2. And not all encounters are complex or challenging of course but there where far mor surpises in DA 2 than in DA:O and i'm not even finished with DA 2. You can play the game as a buttonmasher on lower difficulty settings yes, but that's for the folks who don't have much experience with RPGs and just want to experience the story, an approach that HAS to be taken into account if you want to sell enough that the sales justify the investment.

WoW's budget is from anopther planet, you can't compare that and Assasins Creed is a different genre and a different beast in itself because there exploring is at the very core of the gameplay. Assasins Creed is the Tomb Raider of Zelda of today: one of the last remaining action-adventures.

Modifié par Ingrimm22, 17 mars 2011 - 04:52 .

[Cloaking_Thane]

neppakyo wrote...

(the animations do suck for them tho )

Rogues shouldn't be a "DPS Monster". They should be ones that skirt the edges of battle, engage an enemy, skirt off to the next one.. *sigh* I suck at writing, guess my point is, they shouldn't have more powerful attacks than warriors, or do more damage. And the traps and locks are a joke. Increase cunning *shakes head* I miss investing skills into "lock picking"

(The rogue I made did insane amount of damage)

What differentiates them from warrior light? like they were in origins other than the ability to pick locks, You know there are items that increase lock picking skills a whole level and they stack (see trap or chest, equip item[s])

Further, more crit damage is useful......

We view rogues different, I do want them to be a single target DPS monster but they get overwhelmed with waves b/c of low strength....... its all tradeoffs

[Ingrimm22]

Aidunno wrote...

Took me a couple of respecs to get rogue working well. I think this is another difference between DAO and DA2. Choices of skills in DA2 can have major consequences as you play whereas in DAO, so long as you had a couple of specifc skills you were fine.

Exactly. That's what i meant by "more complex". This time around you can actually "gimp" you characters to a point where he/she's downright useless. And then you look into the skilltrees, THINK about the synergies, try another specc and suddenly you party is a steaming deathmachine even on nightmare. That's the kind of satisfaction i am looking for in every kind of RPG.

[DraCZeQQ]

Ingrimm22 wrote...

ftg wrote...

Wow you play a lot of rpgs, good for you. You said combat is more complex and refined? That means nothing without support, so please, explain. The one issue you are willing to admit, the reuse of levels, you don't care about anyway, and then rave about BioWare's ability to drive story, and their rock solid battle engine? Cool. Also thanks for telling us that "vast worlds" are a thing of the past. I don't think most of us got that memo.

Combat:
1. Combat now includes much more complex encounters and the means to deal with them
2. Spell and Skill-Synergies actually make sense and are useful now.
3. Skillexecution is now immediate and feels much more visceral (i admit this is more of an aesthetic issue)
4. You can actually dodge now therefore Movement and placement is much more important.
5. Skilltrees now consist of "bread & butter" only, not many filler-skills or boring ones.

Reuse of Levels:
1. Everyone pretended that there are 5 maps and that's it, which is laughable.
2. Artdirection > Mapvariety. If for budgetreasons i as a developer have the choice between fewer but better looking maps or more but less refined maps i'd choose the first option anytime.
3. The Maps are few but are brimming with content, a little thing that no one seems to acknowledge. Oblivion, 2 Worlds, Arcania, Gothic etc. have huge worlds but massive stretches of landscpaes where there is absolutley NOTHING to do.

didn't get the memo about "vast worlds are a thing of the past":
Look at the market, the demands and the budgets and think again.

1. Combat encounters in DA2 are poorly designed, repetetive, with absolutly illogical spawning enemies out of thin air. Each enemy and encounter feels exactly the same wheres you fight gangs at lowtowns, spiders in cave or templars ... same classes, same tactic, same feel, same repetetive combats ... and as oss battles that were obvisouly copied from WoW, its even worse coz you fight the boss and your dumb NPC which doesnt make it fun, just more frustrating

2. Well I liked spell combinations in DA:O and I like cross class combos

3. My english isnt that good to understood this but I'll guess you like fast faced combat with flashy animations ... well me too =)

4. In stat based RPG the actuall "dodge" should be based of your skills and your stats and NOT how you click ... one thing is taking strategic position, other thing is manually evade hit by moving your char ...

5. Actually there is way more trash abilities and "upgrades" you must take to get to the bread and butter ... i like the idea of trees, but some limits are weird forcing you to overspecialize ...

And please if you cant see the recycled areas then I dunno what to say ...

[Everwarden]

KalDurenik wrote...

Obvious troll.

Also can someone explain to me how people somehow get 30+ hours of gameplay? Do you sit around and look at walls or something?

That's what I was thinking. There is no way to have played 50 hours in Act II unless you've been running in circles stomping on bandits or starting at Isabela's ridiculously large bust. 

[JabberJaww]

I could care less what game forum regulars scream about when it comes to games. I have HATED games that have been praised and LOVED games that have been vilified by various communities.

I am happily purchasing the game tomorrow.

Its like arguing about music. There is alway a group of people that will tell you your favorite band sucks and are for the gheys.

[Brenus]

PC gamer - 94%, best RPG of the decade.

Criminally underrated????

Seriously, the OP must be on crack or even meth.

[Ingrimm22]

DraCZeQQ wrote...
And please if you cant see the recycled areas then I dunno what to say ...

just a quick note: I never said that there aren't recycled areas. But in my opinion this recycling is nowhere near as bad or as gamebreaking as many here make it sound. It helps that i really like the artdirection, the lighting and the mood of the maps very much, i can see the problem, if you don't like it. Bad luck i guess but what i really don't see is how you can love DA:O and HATE DA 2 for the graphics department just because there are recycled maps. Because frankly, this is nothing new, DA:O had many recycled areas too.

[Cloaking_Thane]

5. Actually there is way more trash abilities and "upgrades" you must take to get to the bread and butter ... i like the idea of trees, but some limits are weird forcing you to overspecialize ...

----

I disagree here, I'm going to assume youre talking about the "end of tree" spells (i.e. Elemental Mastery)

The idea is that you do have to make a concerted effort to specialize in a tree to get the best spells/abilities otherwise whats the point of not giving you the best 9 talents and you choose from there...

[neppakyo]

hahahahaha, you listen to PC Gamer? hahahahaha

[JamesX]

Ingrimm22 wrote...

Your read codex entries, you explore the maps for hidden quests, you tinker with your speccs or try different ones instead of "auto-level", you don't rush on "casual" in "ololol" mode. Just a few examples.

Did all that - including reading 90%-ish of codex entries, played on Hard (nightmare is just no fun with 2H Warrior), did all quests that I found and wasn't bugged, all companion quests finished, maxed friendship, maxed gifts, missed only the Respect of the Qun achievement (and any achievement that is exclusive to my siding with the mages choice).  Still only about 30-iosh hours.

That is going out of my way to be complete.  I can seen an average player finish the game in 25 hours just playing normally without skipping dialog and quests.

Maybe people just have slow computers and have horrible load times?  That could matter alot when it comes to speed.  Though with the DX11 issue, I play the game with only 22-25 fps, so that isn't exactly blazingly fast.

Modifié par JamesX, 17 mars 2011 - 05:12 .

[Cloaking_Thane]

Everwarden wrote...

KalDurenik wrote...

Obvious troll.

Also can someone explain to me how people somehow get 30+ hours of gameplay? Do you sit around and look at walls or something?

That's what I was thinking. There is no way to have played 50 hours in Act II unless you've been running in circles stomping on bandits or starting at Isabela's ridiculously large bust. 

Like i said earlier im 35 hr mid-way 2/3 ish into act 2 on Hard/NM and have done everything at a fairly rapid pace, no skipped dialogue, done every side quest, read a few codexes (not all).....explored all the nooks and crannies...etc etc, I have admired the visuals and things on occassion as well to better feel out kirkwalls environment

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

Yes. Liking Dragon age 2 means you are a troll. Stay classy guys.

[Brenus]

neppakyo wrote...

hahahahaha, you listen to PC Gamer? hahahahaha

If that was directed at me, no I dont. I think this game is a 6 / 10 at the most. 

DA2 is acually 'criminally overrated' jusdging by al the unbelievable reviews singing so much praise about it when it isnt even 20% as good as the best RPGs from the last couple of decades.

[JabberJaww]

Mr.BlazenGlazen wrote...

Yes. Liking Dragon age 2 means you are a troll. Stay classy guys.

Having not played the game yet and reading the forums over the last week... it is odd the venom spewed at anyone who might actually enjoy the game. 

If i do like DA2 after playing it, i just may avoid posting that I do. 

[TJSolo]

KalDurenik wrote...

Obvious troll.

Also can someone explain to me how people somehow get 30+ hours of gameplay? Do you sit around and look at walls or something?

Higher difficulties increase enemy health which in turn increases the length of fights, thus increasing how long a playthrough takes.
There is also the new factor for first playthroughs where some folks will spend hours hopping around trying to find secret missions, super gear,  easter eggs, sidequesting etc.

That being said I don't see how someone can be in act2 with 50hrs of playtime or how someone on a first playthrough(normal or higher) can beat the game in under 30 hours without a lot of dialogue and sidequest skipping.

Modifié par TJSolo, 17 mars 2011 - 05:16 .

[DraCZeQQ]

Ingrimm22 wrote...

DraCZeQQ wrote...
And please if you cant see the recycled areas then I dunno what to say ...

just a quick note: I never said that there aren't recycled areas. But in my opinion this recycling is nowhere near as bad or as gamebreaking as many here make it sound. It helps that i really like the artdirection, the lighting and the mood of the maps very much, i can see the problem, if you don't like it. Bad luck i guess but what i really don't see is how you can love DA:O and HATE DA 2 for the graphics department just because there are recycled maps. Because frankly, this is nothing new, DA:O had many recycled areas too. 

I can say for myself I never registered any major recyckling of areas in DA:O ... except for 1,5 room interior of some houses, which never bothered me coz it was absolute minority ... but in DA2 there is:
2 caves 
2 coastal area
1 sewer
1 warehouse
1 house

and thats it ... and the game sends you to tons of "different" places but they are all the same .... its just like a punch to the face, when you go through the cave and you know there is a room where is usually a treasure (oh hey its here again, what a suprise) and there is a this small hole where a crafting material is usually (oh no wai, its here again, what a suprise) ... and on top of that, no clue what led them to it, they actually separate some areas by obvious completly out of place "doors" that absolutly makes no sense ...

And to makes things clear ... I bet lots of people dont "HATE" the DA2, I enjoyed it not as much as I would without a ton of bad desing and other non-sense, plot holes and stuff, but still the game has a lot to offer ... BUT I wanna let Bioware know where they made mistakes (in my opinion) so the next game can be better ... Im not bashing them because I decided to stop buying Bioware games, Im bashing them because I hope the new games wont have problems that DA2 have ...

[EmperorZorn]

I still think DA2 is mediocre, but if you compare its score to some other lame FPS games or RPGs, then yes - DA2 is underrated.

[neppakyo]

I wish they didn't dumb down, err I mean "streamline" the DA2 profile for uploaded characters and ****e. I miss seeing how many hours one of my characters spent, or enemies killed, damage done etc.

[ftg]

Ingrimm22 wrote...

It is necessary to play strategically if you choose to play it on hard or nightmare which i did in DA:O and in DA 2. And not all encounters are complex or challenging of course but there where far mor surpises in DA 2 than in DA:O and i'm not even finished with DA 2. You can play the game as a buttonmasher on lower difficulty settings yes, but that's for the folks who don't have much experience with RPGs and just want to experience the story, an approach that HAS to be taken into account if you want to sell enough that the sales justify the investment.

WoW's budget is from anopther planet, you can't compare that and Assasins Creed is a different genre and a different beast in itself because there exploring is at the very core of the gameplay. Assasins Creed is the Tomb Raider of Zelda of today: one of the last remaining action-adventures.

Nah, I button mashed the game on hard. Didn't try nightmare, and won't bother, so maybe you're right. Either way my main issue really is that it was caught somewhere between a more traditional select ability pause click rpg and a combat oriented action game, and it didn't work for me. It felt half-baked and choppy and if I'm going to be clicking attack a lot, I would've prefered smoother combo input gameplay and a better engine than this.

Fair enough on the WoW angle, but the genre shouldn't limit what can/should be done with level design. For you, a satisfying rpg might be one that allows coherent combo spec, but part of the appeal of rpgs is story immersion which takes place in world immersion. With the difference between a free roam action adventure game with an interactive environment, there's no reason an rpg with a non-iinteractive level should have such limited, static, and lacklustre design. I could accept budget limitations, but then I'm curious as to what area the budget went.

[Solo80]

So I'm guessing the OP no longer stands for the views expressed in this thread? I'll give him this - when he stands for something, he stands for it 100%. No middle ground here...

[DragonRageGT]

Merci357 wrote...

KalDurenik wrote...

Obvious troll.

Also can someone explain to me how people somehow get 30+ hours of gameplay? Do you sit around and look at walls or something?

30 hours? Maybe. Anything less? I don't think RPGs are the right genre for you. From my point of view, you are the obvious troll. Sorry.

Agree with Mercy. And one boss fight alone took me over 1 hours to beat after countless attempts. But then, I only play Nightmare. Replayed the fight in Normal and it took me some 5 minutes to win. For a casual player, this game is a lot shorter than for a hardcore gamer, more so if  you skip all cinematics/dialogues. (there is a reason why old Bioware games had the highest difficulty named "Hardcore").

As for the ratings, well, BiowEAre won't pay attention to those as long as the game is selling and reaching "the way of the audience" with a rushed game. DA2 could indeed have been a masterpiece, with some one or two more years of developement.