128 réponses à ce sujet

[Pileyourbodies]

Yeah both sides had bad leaders however the mages have far more bad rank and file troops than do the templars. Templars had Arlik and thats it. Karras talks about bad things with mages however he doesn't DO anything and considering what happened to him hes like Cullen was in DA:O

[da0Xeffect2]

This is part of the whole Anders thing. What Anders did was force everyone to act. There could be no peaceful solution. Either mages or templars no both. Orisino was knew he could not defeat the templars like they were so, like most mages pushed into a corner, turned to blood magic. He became what people feared mages would be and the same can be said of Meredith.

[TobiTobsen]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

Yeah both sides had bad leaders however the mages have far more bad rank and file troops than do the templars. Templars had Arlik and thats it. Karras talks about bad things with mages however he doesn't DO anything and considering what happened to him hes like Cullen was in DA:O

Karras is a bastard. Talk to the young mage, that you rescue at the entrance of Decimus cave, after he is brought to the gallows. He will tell you that Karras threatend to make him tranquil if he tells anybody that Karras was "in his room" . Karras seems to be just like Alrik. Just with male mages.

[LobselVith8]

What about the templars who want to kill Thrask? What about the templars who try to kill the nobles who don't support Meredith? What about the templars who tortured the Dalish? It's not one-sided in DA2. There are good and bad templars and mages. Neither side is wearing a white or black hat, which I applaud.

[Anarya]

nelly21 wrote...

Anarya wrote...

nelly21 wrote...

Anarya wrote...

This would make sense IF he turned himself into the Harvester in a place where he could get at the enemy. He does not. That's where my issue lies. If he'd been a wildcard on the field attacking both sides during the last battle it would have made more sense to me.

He is in a place to get at the enemy. The Templars are coming to kill them. He is literally standing in a place to get at the enemy.

Except that there's a barrier there keeping them out and he's surrounded by allies that he promptly starts attacking.

And this barrier will last for all eternity?

No, but immediately after transforming he becomes a mindless wrecking ball. It's like letting a rampaging elephant go in your own camp and then hoping it eventually maybe takes out some of the bad guys too.

[Vicious]

My first playthrough

Siding with the Templars, everything makes sense, no plot contrivances, made me think DA2 was a truly stellar experience by the time it ended.


Then I sided with the Mages. Polar opposite. Nothing made sense, Everyone was a blood mage or abomination, and stuff happens like in the Templar side, [Orsino's transformation] except they make absolutely no sense from the point of view you picked.


So two things:

1) I think most poeple sided with the Mages because they were the good guys in DA:O. In DA2 they clearly are not, you meet tons of blood mages who try to kill you before you are even asked to make a choice. People are looking at it through DA:O's eyes and not DA2's eyes.

Orsino is very different from Irving, [read, less wise, kind, and patient] and Meredith is a polar opposite of Greagoir, even without the Primeval artifact.

That was probably 100% intentional.

2) Bioware did the Templar side, ran out of time, threw the Mage side together. It is especially shown near the end. It is just crap in comparison.

And from the looks of it, most people joined the Mages first.


I have no problem with the portrayal of Mages being opposite of DA:O's. I do however have a problem that Mage side is obviously rough and thrown together and little makes sense. [like why you have the ability to side with those ****s in the first place]


Templar side has everything. You save the good mages, reunite with your sister Bethany, defeat the bad mages, take command of the Templars from Meredith, and lead the charge in defeating her and saving the day.


Siding with the Mages however, just makes you look like a complete idiot.

Modifié par Vicious, 17 mars 2011 - 05:38 .

[ankuu]

Vicious wrote...

My first playthrough

Siding with the Templars, everything makes sense, no plot contrivances, made me think DA2 was a truly stellar experience by the time it ended.


Then I sided with the Mages. Polar opposite. Nothing made sense, Everyone was a blood mage or abomination, and stuff happens like in the Templar side, [Orsino's transformation] except they make absolutely no sense from the point of view you picked.


So two things:

1) I think most poeple sided with the Mages because they were the good guys in DA:O. In DA2 they clearly are not, you meet tons of blood mages who try to kill you before you are even asked to make a choice. People are looking at it through DA:O's eyes and not DA2's eyes.

Orsino is very different from Irving, [read, less wise, kind, and patient] and Meredith is a polar opposite of Greagoir, even without the Primeval artifact.

That was probably 100% intentional.

2) Bioware did the Templar side, ran out of time, threw the Mage side together. It is especially shown near the end. It is just crap in comparison.

And from the looks of it, most people joined the Mages first.


I have no problem with the portrayal of Mages being opposite of DA:O's. I do however have a problem that Mage side is obviously rough and thrown together and little makes sense. [like why you have the ability to side with those ****s in the first place]


Templar side has everything. You save the good mages, reunite with your sister Bethany, defeat the bad mages, take command of the Templars from Meredith, and lead the charge in defeating her and saving the day.


Siding with the Mages however, just makes you look like a complete idiot.

You can get Bethany/Carver in the Mage side too.

[AlexXIV]

Well don't listen to people I guess.

He is not insane.

Fact is he dabbled in bloodmagic, and got it from the Lilly killer. But he says that he didn't know what Quentin was doing. You can question that, but you can't disprove it. He knew however that he was a blood mage and he helped him so he could not be found. Which led to Leandra's death.

Orsino did not like bloodmagic up the point he felt that Meredith would never give them a chance or loosen her grip on the Circle mages. For some reason blood mages were the first to speak against the templars, which is sort of the reason so many converted. Which seems logical. Many mages turned to bloodmages out of desperation. Fenris mentions something about it before the last battle. He had witnessed comparable things in Tevinter.

And yes, Orsino using bloodmagic to turn in this thing was the most stupid thing anyone did in the whole game. I think it was to make it plausible that the templars win no matter what and to get people agitated against the mages. Whether 2 boss fights so close after another was necessary I can't say. I don't really like the MMO style boss fights in single player games at all. Breaks immersion.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 17 mars 2011 - 05:45 .

[Anarya]

I'm going to have to side with the Templars some time to see what it's like.

I don't think there is a good or bad side here (by design). I sided with the mages but my reasoning was to oppose Meredith and the Rite of Annulment, plus Hawke was from a mage family and had spent her whole life running from Templars. I recognized that there are good and bad people on both sides but the Templars have the upper hand in regards to the status quo before the end. I thought the mages needed my help more, and even though their ranks are infested with blood mages and abominations (that card got played too many times imo), my Hawke still wanted to judge mages on their individul merits. So that's why I sided with mages.

[da0Xeffect2]

Vicious wrote...

My first playthrough

Siding with the Templars, everything makes sense, no plot contrivances, made me think DA2 was a truly stellar experience by the time it ended.


Then I sided with the Mages. Polar opposite. Nothing made sense, Everyone was a blood mage or abomination, and stuff happens like in the Templar side, [Orsino's transformation] except they make absolutely no sense from the point of view you picked.


So two things:

1) I think most poeple sided with the Mages because they were the good guys in DA:O. In DA2 they clearly are not, you meet tons of blood mages who try to kill you before you are even asked to make a choice. People are looking at it through DA:O's eyes and not DA2's eyes.

Orsino is very different from Irving, [read, less wise, kind, and patient] and Meredith is a polar opposite of Greagoir, even without the Primeval artifact.

That was probably 100% intentional.

2) Bioware did the Templar side, ran out of time, threw the Mage side together. It is especially shown near the end. It is just crap in comparison.

And from the looks of it, most people joined the Mages first.


I have no problem with the portrayal of Mages being opposite of DA:O's. I do however have a problem that Mage side is obviously rough and thrown together and little makes sense. [like why you have the ability to side with those ****s in the first place]


Templar side has everything. You save the good mages, reunite with your sister Bethany, defeat the bad mages, take command of the Templars from Meredith, and lead the charge in defeating her and saving the day.


Siding with the Mages however, just makes you look like a complete idiot.

Always darkest before the dawn. I can completely see the sense in joining the mages. Templars were pushing mages into a corner and some went insane. A perfect example was two of the missions that Meredith gives you at the end. One wanted to return to the circle but instead she was chased out.

[Halo Quea]

Suron wrote...

it's just more of BioWare's contrived ending crap. They go too far to blur either side. Ending in BOTH sides having leaders that are out of their minds. It's a forced "doubt" in your picking the "best" side.

ie just about every mage resorting to blood magic or becoming abominations. Or Meredith being a psychopathic zealot.

Exactly, and thank you. Somebody who gets it. 

You NEVER had any allies, you NEVER really had a SIDE to choose in the first place.  You were ALWAYS going to have to kill or confront everyone no matter what.

I kept thinking at some point someone in Kirkwall will eventually stop trying to kill me and make the effort of asking me whose side I was on...........but no.   No matter where I went, the very Mages and Templars whose cause I would have supported would all completely lose their minds at the mere sight of me.    

By the time I made it to the Knight Commander I honestly no longer cared about anyone's cause, I just wanted to get it over with.   Seriously, if that's what Bioware had intended to do from the start then why give gamer's the illusion that any choice we made actually mattered?

[nelly21]

Anarya wrote...

[No, but immediately after transforming he becomes a mindless wrecking ball. It's like letting a rampaging elephant go in your own camp and then hoping it eventually maybe takes out some of the bad guys too.

It's exactly like that. Except you're not releasing a mindless wrecking ball in a safe, thriving camp. You are releasing them in an overun and defeated camp.

[Potato Cat]

Orsino wasn't insane, we was just hugely panicked. I'm sure you would ahve done something similar. Remember, Templars can stop mage powers and they just killed his friends and people who could help him. He was naturally scared of death and saw the blood magic transformation thing the only way to live.

By the way, who does he look like? He reminds me of someone famous but I have no idea who. I think it's Craig T Nelson, but that might just be because I watched Poltergeist recently and I'm REALLY bad at this sort of thing.

[Rafe34]

nelly21 wrote...

Anarya wrote...

nelly21 wrote...

Anarya wrote...

This would make sense IF he turned himself into the Harvester in a place where he could get at the enemy. He does not. That's where my issue lies. If he'd been a wildcard on the field attacking both sides during the last battle it would have made more sense to me.

He is in a place to get at the enemy. The Templars are coming to kill them. He is literally standing in a place to get at the enemy.

Except that there's a barrier there keeping them out and he's surrounded by allies that he promptly starts attacking.

And this barrier will last for all eternity?

No, but at the very least he should have warned Hawke that he was about to turn into a ravenous monster that couldn't tell friend from foe- I didn't get this part of the story either. All he does is make it EASIER for the Templars to win, as he takes himself out of the picture, and nearly takes Hawke & Co. out of the picture, too.

As well, Mage Hawke should have been able to stop him, in my opinion, even if it meant killing him. Disrupting his magic, as it were.

[hawat333]

It makes sense in my opinion, it draws literally the case with mage-templar conflict.
That the opressed mages seek desperate measures when they are cornered, and this is more dangerous than having a lighter authority over them.
Although I do agree that it shouldn't have been laid on Orsino. Or only if the survivors weren't sacrificed in the process, if it was to defend them, that would be a First Enchanter-worthy act. Sacrifcing his own identity and principals to defend those he cares about.
First Enchanter Irwing would never do such a thing. Maybe he is just a better man of character.

[Bann Duncan]

Lithuasil wrote...

Bann Duncan wrote...



I disagree. Mage Hawke and/or the mage companions more than make up for the lack of Orsino. Orsino deserved to die  - can you really excuse someone who funded your mother being cut up and made into a human doll?

Well, excuse in the sense of not asking him about how much he knew later, and demanding a good explanation? No, of course not.
Excuse, in the sense of letting the most powerful mage in the circle do his thing, until we've established that me, my love interest, my best bud (who happen to be a bloodmage and an abomination), my sibling and everyone on my christmas card list are out of immediate harms way? YES.

In gameplay terms, it doesn't matter of course. But Hawke herself doesn't know she's remote piloted, and sucking up the "hey, what was that you were talking about just now" speech until after we're no longer about to be overrun - I can very well justify that in roleplaying terms. And I wish the game would let me do it.

I am speaking in role-playing terms, not gameplay terms. I'm not one of the people who goes on about "I don't need Jack because Shepard is a better biotic".

The combination of Merrill, the Dalish keeper bloodmage, Bethany, a particularly talented Circle mage, Anders (if you let him live), an extremely focused abomination and Mage Hawke easily dwarfs one flesh golem in terms of damage-dealing ability from a story perspective.

[Anarya]

nelly21 wrote...

Anarya wrote...

[No, but immediately after transforming he becomes a mindless wrecking ball. It's like letting a rampaging elephant go in your own camp and then hoping it eventually maybe takes out some of the bad guys too.

It's exactly like that. Except you're not releasing a mindless wrecking ball in a safe, thriving camp. You are releasing them in an overun and defeated camp.

Right next to your biggest ally and asset, namely Hawke and crew.

[Lithuasil]

Bann Duncan wrote...


I am speaking in role-playing terms, not gameplay terms. I'm not one of the people who goes on about "I don't need Jack because Shepard is a better biotic".

The combination of Merrill, the Dalish keeper bloodmage, Bethany, a particularly talented Circle mage, Anders (if you let him live), an extremely focused abomination and Mage Hawke easily dwarfs one flesh golem in terms of damage-dealing ability from a story perspective.

Despite that, as far as I can tell, all those people seem somewhere between worried and "aaah we're all gonna die", and killing the most powerful mage in the entire city, surely isn't going to shift the balance of power more in our favor.

Personally, the ending I'd have preferred would be to talk him out of cutting himself in the first place, and have him roll along in his normal gargamel form. THEN, once meredith and by extension every one with a templar shield are toasted, ask him who send those letters signed with O. (I blame the orlesians)

[Valus]

Orsino going bat**** at the end doesn't bother me too much. Orsino turning into a Harvester does.

I don't care about the White Lilly connection. Exactly how am I supposed to make the connection that they possibly got hold of that kind of research from Amgarak? Even if they did get it second hand from some Tevinter researcher they should have eluded to it so it didn't come out looking like "herp derp. we ran out of cool boss ideas so we slapped a harvester on Orsino".

Carving up some dead chicks and slapping them together is a far cry from what we understand harvesters to be at this point.

I'm not saying Meat Voltron is not justifiable in some way. I'm sure they've got some 'Days of our Lives' crap in the works. But at the very least justify how/why it came to be.

Modifié par Valus, 17 mars 2011 - 07:03 .

[AlexXIV]

You can probably argue that Orsino gave control to a demon in the hope it would smash the templars, or at least kill as many as possible. He just forgot about the first and most important rule about demons. They never do what you want, unless it is coincidently what they want too. And even then they probably try to screw you over. I think Orsino's plan basically backfired on his allies.

I found the whole combat scenes kind of stupid. The templars rush in and kill all mages and they just die as if they were peasants. In the cutscene I mean. I would have suspected something of an even battle. Especially if Hawke and her crew support the mages.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 17 mars 2011 - 07:06 .

[nelly21]

Anarya wrote...

nelly21 wrote...

Anarya wrote...

[No, but immediately after transforming he becomes a mindless wrecking ball. It's like letting a rampaging elephant go in your own camp and then hoping it eventually maybe takes out some of the bad guys too.

It's exactly like that. Except you're not releasing a mindless wrecking ball in a safe, thriving camp. You are releasing them in an overun and defeated camp.

Right next to your biggest ally and asset, namely Hawke and crew.

But who cares? If you are Orisino, who cares that Hawke is your biggest asset? In your mind the battle is lost, the Templars are swarming and your biggest asset is going to be killed in the next two seconds. Orisino is trying to take as many Templars as he can with him.

[AlexXIV]

nelly21 wrote...

Anarya wrote...

nelly21 wrote...

Anarya wrote...

[No, but immediately after transforming he becomes a mindless wrecking ball. It's like letting a rampaging elephant go in your own camp and then hoping it eventually maybe takes out some of the bad guys too.

It's exactly like that. Except you're not releasing a mindless wrecking ball in a safe, thriving camp. You are releasing them in an overun and defeated camp.

Right next to your biggest ally and asset, namely Hawke and crew.

But who cares? If you are Orisino, who cares that Hawke is your biggest asset? In your mind the battle is lost, the Templars are swarming and your biggest asset is going to be killed in the next two seconds. Orisino is trying to take as many Templars as he can with him.

It didn't work though, I don't think he took anyone with him.

[Lithuasil]

AlexXIV wrote...


It didn't work though, I don't think he took anyone with him.

I suppose he would've beaten those five templars, if a single chainlightning hadn't killed them first. That said, the game doesn't really let you the option to step aside and not attack Orsino. For all we know, he would've just waltzed out the door, if we hadn't attacked him.

[nelly21]

AlexXIV wrote...

nelly21 wrote...

Anarya wrote...

nelly21 wrote...

Anarya wrote...

[No, but immediately after transforming he becomes a mindless wrecking ball. It's like letting a rampaging elephant go in your own camp and then hoping it eventually maybe takes out some of the bad guys too.

It's exactly like that. Except you're not releasing a mindless wrecking ball in a safe, thriving camp. You are releasing them in an overun and defeated camp.

Right next to your biggest ally and asset, namely Hawke and crew.

But who cares? If you are Orisino, who cares that Hawke is your biggest asset? In your mind the battle is lost, the Templars are swarming and your biggest asset is going to be killed in the next two seconds. Orisino is trying to take as many Templars as he can with him.

It didn't work though, I don't think he took anyone with him.

Because Hawke killed him. If Hawke hadn't, then what?

[RolandX9]

Elfman wrote...

Orsino wasn't insane, we was just hugely panicked.

I think it was more of a despair event horizon thing. The way he looks at the bodies of his friends, the closest thing any mage has to family, Maker knows how many students who were like children to him...and the way he asks why they don't just kill them in their cribs. I was heartbroken. Then, of course, he goes all Harvester. It does make sense from a "he just broke" perspective, IMHO. Certainly not very bright with Hawke and co. right there, and it does feel very forced in the pro-Mage ending (in a "we need to use this boss fight regardless of the ending" sort of way), but it's at least plausible. I would have much preferred being able to "point" him at the Templars until sufficient casualties had been inflicted and/or he's in danger of getting out into Kirkwall, then putting him down. Then again, I'm very pro-mage-freedom (just not in a "blow up innocent people" or "turn into a demon" way).