128 réponses à ce sujet

[HTTP 404]

I understand that both Orsino and MEredith have to die in the end. but why couldnt they just have meredith kill orsino if you sided with the mages and have meredith as boss. Vice versa, Orsino kills meredith in desperation turned flesh golem and is the boss to kill if you sided with the templars.

Im guessing they just want to pin both deaths on Hawke no matter what you chose.

[Kerilus]

HTTP 404 wrote...

I understand that both Orsino and MEredith have to die in the end. but why couldnt they just have meredith kill orsino if you sided with the mages and have meredith as boss. Vice versa, Orsino kills meredith in desperation turned flesh golem and is the boss to kill if you sided with the templars.

Im guessing they just want to pin both deaths on Hawke no matter what you chose.

More boss won't hurt.

[Vertrucio]

They could have just have had someone else turn into the harvester instead of Orsino. The timeline could have gone: Side with mages -> Meredith mortally wounds Orsino -> Orsino is dragged back into the tower and dies causing someone nearby to say the same lines about research yadda yadda, and go harvester mode.

It just seems like Orsino would never have gone that route, and it kind of cheapens the mage's struggle since all it does is show that, yes, all mages, even the best, succumb to blood magic and possession. And like others have said, it just feels like a cheap way to throw in one more boss and reuse the harvester asset.

I mean, really, Meredith got to have her moment of empathy in dialog. Orsino was just written poorly.

Modifié par Vertrucio, 18 mars 2011 - 01:11 .

[Bann Duncan]

Persephone wrote...

unspoken_demise wrote...

I didn't feel so bad about taking him down once he referenced the killer. And by "didn't feel so bad," I mean, "I should have ended you earlier, you pr*ck!"

To tell you the truth, I felt horrible for siding with Meredith until that reference came up. Doesn't Orsino KNOW whom the Lily Murderer killed? Granted, some say he was so far gone and desperate, anything to survive......but that was crossing the line a million times over. Both Meredith and Orsino were insane. Both had an ounce of tragedy and both did what they thought they had to. But God, they make me sick. The Archdemon was your standard "Kill the dragon!" issue. This........cuts deeper.

Meredith had the idol excuse, at least. Orsino had none.

[nelly21]

Bann Duncan wrote...

[Meredith had the idol excuse, at least. Orsino had none.

Genocide isn't an excuse?

[vigna]

Anarya wrote...

Even if he's insane all along though, it's presented as a more sociopathic sort of brokenness and not the raving lunatic sort. His action still doesn't make sense to me as he still cares about helping the mages.

Similar to Anders in that he appears relatively normal, then mildly crazy and just dealing with stuff through their circumstances given them. Then they go and jump the shark and go all batsh+t crazy...for no apparent reason.

Modifié par vigna, 18 mars 2011 - 02:08 .

[Bann Duncan]

nelly21 wrote...

Bann Duncan wrote...

[Meredith had the idol excuse, at least. Orsino had none.

Genocide isn't an excuse?

The Lily killer had been active years before Meredith announced the Right of Annulment.

[Edge2177]

Everyone is overlooking something, the idol.

The Idol's presence and corrupted lyrium is a negative force that is causing *all* of this. Remember, you find it's presence in Act 2, that means that inherently behind the Arishok, and everything that comes next it's spreading to the surface.

[Pileyourbodies]

Wiping out the mages in kirkwall isn't genocide. The mages arn't an ethnic group nor are they a cultural group and you're not killing all mages. You are gutting an organization, an organization that will be rebuilt.

[Mahrdol]

Kerilus wrote...

Mahrdol wrote...

It was annoying to have him go crazy when that fight was basically over. It would have been much better as a cut scene where he joines you in the court yard before the final fight. Changes and slaughtered dozens of templars so you have a chance to win. Then have the templar **** slay him to give her more creedence as a threat.

They were probably short on time and money so they figured it was easier to just have him go harvester to tidy everything up. Choices are only an illusion in DA:2. Almost everything plays out the same. That final battle was too easy. I enjoyed the high dragon and the Arishok fight much more.

No, the fight was hardly over. They have the whole world of Templars and the Chantry behind them to fight.

When he changed to a harvester there was no bad guys in the room. He changed then was slaughtered by allies. It was Pointless and could have been developed and worked into the story so much better.

The idol could have been developed so much better in the story,

Modifié par Mahrdol, 18 mars 2011 - 03:51 .

[LobselVith8]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

Wiping out the mages in kirkwall isn't genocide. The mages arn't an ethnic group nor are they a cultural group and you're not killing all mages. You are gutting an organization, an organization that will be rebuilt.

The mages seem to consider themselves a group, and the Right of Anulment considers them a group since it allows their systematic elimination on the basis of having magical ability. Furthermore, you are killing all mages, with the exception of the individuals in your group who are helping you exterminate the Circle mages. And by "rebuilt," you mean it'll be supplied with new men, women, and children to make up for the ones who are murdered because of the Right of Anulment.

Also, the definition is:

–noun
the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.

Therefore, it is genocide.

[Conway044]

Anarya wrote...

nelly21 wrote...

While I didn't like it entirely, I think I understand the reasoning.

Mages are not fighters. They are powerful beings, but being powerful does not automatically make you a good fighter. Templars are great fighters who are resistant to magic. When the battle starts you see a cutscene of the Templars entering the Circle. In this cutscene, the mages mostly get their butts kicked. Even so, the mages barely survive the attack. The problem is, the Templars have reinforcements coming, the mages do not.

Orisino sees how badly they are doing and realizes that it's only a matter of time until the Templars break through and Meredith wins. When that happens, he and all the other mages are going to die. He has spent over seven years of his life despising Meredith. He hates her. He hates everything she stands for. He hates everything the Templars stand for. As soon as he realizes that he's doomed, it isn't about survival or winning the battle. It's about hurting as many of the Templars as possible, More importantly, it's about hurting Meredith as much as possible. He becomes Harvester because he doesn't really care about hurting Hawke. He thinks Hawke & co. are going to die anyway. But a Harvester can kill many more Templars than plain old Orisino ever could.

Hope this helps

This would make sense IF he turned himself into the Harvester in a place where he could get at the enemy. He does not. That's where my issue lies. If he'd been a wildcard on the field attacking both sides during the last battle it would have made more sense to me.

It makes more sense when you side with the Templars.  He enacts the ritual when he is corned by Hawke's party, Meredith and (I think) Cullen.  He says he's never used blood magic before, but was given all the research by the white lilly killer.  A mage he had protected so that Meredith couldn't use a serial killer blood mage as an excuse to crack down on the mages more.

[Dean_the_Young]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

Wiping out the mages in kirkwall isn't genocide. The mages arn't an ethnic group nor are they a cultural group and you're not killing all mages. You are gutting an organization, an organization that will be rebuilt.

It is, but only because genocide isn't about totality, or size of body count. It's a matter of which population you're looking at.

The Annulment is a genocide... of the group that's being annulled. Not of the Magi as a whole, but of a significant group of them.

[just.a.dude]

I thought Orsino was well written. A powerful, moderate, well spoken, First Enchanter who cares about his charge. The Ordeal with Meridith is trying before she falls prey to the artifact. Once she does it becomes so bad he starts to break. While he never used Blood Magic himself (he says so before using it) he makes critical mistakes over time symbolized by the growing ranks of blood mages inside the circle and his passive support of the Lilly-Killer. I thought this was well done.

Either way, mage or templar, I would not have him change into a harvester, but have him go on a Blood mage rampage in a cutscene with him glowing red lkie Anders does white or something similar and then turning on Hawke as all demons do.

[Dragonette29]

 There have been plenty of constructive arguments floating around in this thread and most of the reasonable, but as a loyal Orsino fangirl supporter I'll speak anyway.

I guess it's possible to categorize the whole harvester thing as an act of ultimate sacrifice and desparation, but only if you feel somehow obliged to justify the writers obvious poor rush job (or what has been done due to, as I don't remember who said, "engine limitations").
The ending feels very forced and unnecessary from the mage supporter's point of view and even if the First Enchanters and Knight-Commander both had to die it could've and should've been done in a different manner, a manner that would make the player feel that their choice made an actual difference and that they're not playing a linear, Diablo-style game. the fact that the mages attacked and went berserk blood magic on you no matter which side you supported was stupid as well.    "Hey, man, I'm on your side, keep your composure!"
The issue of Orsino's involvement in research that led to Leandra's death would, of course, remain and is a different story entirely. It should be down to Hawke to decide if he finds Orsino guilty of anything and to decide his fate.

Also, something  I wrote earlier, in a different thread:

It wasn't the blood magic itself, however, that got me - it was the fact that a badass mage, the First -bloody- Enchanter, could not control it and went mindless berserk on everyone like a mere abomination.
After all, not even counting the PCs, there are characters in Dragon Age who successfully use blood magic and DO NOT go mad like this. Take Jowan, for example. he was just an apprentice :/

I strongly suggest you go here and read Kelenthial's rant about why we think Orsino is kickass and deserves more love
http://social.biowar...73360/1#6573360

[sth128]

I think Orsino created the barrier at the end with blood magic, but his research into necromancy turned him into the abomination that we see. I don't know about supporting the Templars, but in my mage play through Hawke had to fight both Orsino and Meredith. Orsino fight was a push over, Meredith was tougher.

Where's Sandal when you need him? He can probably take them both down while excitedly shouting "Enchantment"!

[Kerilus]

Pileyourbodies wrote...

Wiping out the mages in kirkwall isn't genocide. The mages arn't an ethnic group nor are they a cultural group and you're not killing all mages. You are gutting an organization, an organization that will be rebuilt.

An "organization that will be rebuilt", what an elegant way to put it. Sadly, those within the "organization" can't be "rebuilt".

[Kerilus]

Mahrdol wrote...

Kerilus wrote...

Mahrdol wrote...

It was annoying to have him go crazy when that fight was basically over. It would have been much better as a cut scene where he joines you in the court yard before the final fight. Changes and slaughtered dozens of templars so you have a chance to win. Then have the templar **** slay him to give her more creedence as a threat.

They were probably short on time and money so they figured it was easier to just have him go harvester to tidy everything up. Choices are only an illusion in DA:2. Almost everything plays out the same. That final battle was too easy. I enjoyed the high dragon and the Arishok fight much more.

No, the fight was hardly over. They have the whole world of Templars and the Chantry behind them to fight.

When he changed to a harvester there was no bad guys in the room. He changed then was slaughtered by allies. It was Pointless and could have been developed and worked into the story so much better.

The idol could have been developed so much better in the story,

The idol I agree. However, you're still trying too hard to rationalize Orsino's action. He did not care who's in the room. He saw his pupils cut down before him and he knew even the champion, himself and a few circle mages managed to get out of the gallow alive, which was very unlikely to him, there'd be no hope for the mages to survive.

[Dragonette29]

sth128 wrote...

I think Orsino created the barrier at the end with blood magic, but his research into necromancy turned him into the abomination that we see. I don't know about supporting the Templars, but in my mage play through Hawke had to fight both Orsino and Meredith. Orsino fight was a push over, Meredith was tougher.

Where's Sandal when you need him? He can probably take them both down while excitedly shouting "Enchantment"!

Did Meredith use blood magic too, to create her own barrier? 
lol

[mysticforce42]

Desperate times demand desperate measures. I can empathize with Orsino's actions, and we can always interpret his last act of madness as losing control of his sanity/powers after experiencing the slaughter of everyone he cared about in life.

That being said... the sequence could have been planned better.

[Fishmas1]

I made this comic out of how monumentally STUPID Orsino got at the end. :/

[Big I]

Fishmas1 wrote...



I made this comic out of how monumentally STUPID Orsino got at the end. :/

Motto.

[silksieve]

I finally finished the game (I'm a slow player), and while there were a couple of moments here and there that made me raise an eyebrow, the Orsino moment after siding with the mages definitely had me sitting back and going "What the eff just happened?" And yeah, I really did google "orsino wtf" to see if there was an explanation, so I'm glad I'm not the only one who's confused. I liked the game, but it was moments like these (severe emotional disconnect at a crisis point) that is keeping me from loving it like I loved DA:O.

[Eelectrica]

Finished not long ago myself and was initially frustrated with Orsino. My character was a blood mage so siding with the Mages was always going to happen.
When I got to the Meredith fight though and found out what happened with the lyrium idol, it all made sense. Having the lyrium idol in the circle drove mostly everyone insane, mages and templars alike.

That said I got very frustrated with all the mages I tried to help stabbing me in the back by becoming abominations.

When I play through as a warrior I'll side with the Templars. My rogue might try to walk the path of neutrality if it's possible.

[SIx_Foot_Imp]

Yup Orsino was an evil nut job, merideth was an evil nutjob, even the grand cleric was an indecisive idiot that destroyed her own city through inaction. Between all the other phsycotic mages and abusive templars the only two character who had strong convictions and stuck with them were ironicly your advisaries: the Arishock annd sister petrise. I couldnt bring myself to personally like a single NPC in the game but atleast I respected those two.