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[Camenae]

You know what this whole thing reminds me of, is if I agree to be the guarantor for somebody's bank loan, and they say, don't worry, I know a lot of people would just take the bank's money and run, but not me. I know you took a big risk helping me, and you won't regret it!

...then of course they can't pay it back for some reason. So I'm screwed.

Yeah they might have really good reasons and I might feel really sorry for what happened to them that made them unable to come up with the money...but goddamn I'm never falling for that again!!!!! Unless of course the game forces me into it.

[griffondor]

Those with "Orsino love" need perhaps to play a few more times... then you'll see the red flags.  Orsino doesn't suddenly go crazy at the end.  He's not the berated victim he claims to be, he's much more conniving. 

For example, just before the end of Act 2, before Hawk fights the Arishok, Hawk and company find Orsino on the ground, surrounded by dead mages.  If Bethany is in the Circle, he will feign concern and revive her.  All the other mages remain dead.  At this point, Hawk can say (paraphrase) "Wow, you sure are lucky.  You made out a lot better than the others."  This is obviously a leading statement... and gives the suggestion that Orsino is, not only no hero for the mages, in that he doesn't have their back, but possibly,  he is perfectly willing to use them as shields.  

Then, in Act 3 he gives you the quest to find out what some mages are doing sneaking out into the night.  He says Meredith has locked him in and he wants to find out what they are up to.  So you do, and you discover that a group of mages and templars, led by Thrask, are conspiring to remove Meredith, not to overthrow the circle (according to Keran), but to create a circle where the templars are protecting the mages, not abusing them.  That's the spiel.  But what happens?  Grace goes bloodrage on Hawk, kills Thrask and all the duped mages and templars who were cluelessly following become imprisoned/killed.  When Thrask asks what the champion is doing there, and is surprised you would be on the side of Meredith, you have to remember (because the game doesn't give you the option to tell him) that it is Orsino--not Meredith--who sent you.  

Orsino was bad to the bone.  Freedom and protection for mages?  He could care less.  IMO, he was about blood magic all along, and revealing the connection with the serial killer at the end is the final proof.

[The Baconer]

griffondor wrote...

For example, just before the end of Act 2, before Hawk fights the Arishok, Hawk and company find Orsino on the ground, surrounded by dead mages.  If Bethany is in the Circle, he will feign concern and revive her.  All the other mages remain dead.  At this point, Hawk can say (paraphrase) "Wow, you sure are lucky.  You made out a lot better than the others."  This is obviously a leading statement... and gives the suggestion that Orsino is, not only no hero for the mages, in that he doesn't have their back, but possibly,  he is perfectly willing to use them as shields.

While I've never seen this scene with Bethany as a Circle mage I never got the feeling he was feigning grief over the dead apprentices.  

Then, in Act 3 he gives you the quest to find out what some mages are doing sneaking out into the night.  He says Meredith has locked him in and he wants to find out what they are up to.  So you do, and you discover that a group of mages and templars, led by Thrask, are conspiring to remove Meredith, not to overthrow the circle (according to Keran), but to create a circle where the templars are protecting the mages, not abusing them.  That's the spiel.  But what happens?  Grace goes bloodrage on Hawk, kills Thrask and all the duped mages and templars who were cluelessly following become imprisoned/killed.  When Thrask asks what the champion is doing there, and is surprised you would be on the side of Meredith, you have to remember (because the game doesn't give you the option to tell him) that it is Orsino--not Meredith--who sent you.

Before taking that quest from Orsino you have to round up 3 runaway mages for Meredith. I certainly think that's reason enough to be suspicious of Hawke at first. Is it a bid ridiculous that we can't at least explain what's really going on? Yeah, but that's a case of the plot railroading. 

Orsino was bad to the bone.  Freedom and protection for mages?  He could care less.  IMO, he was about blood magic all along, and revealing the connection with the serial killer at the end is the final proof.

That's making a big leap. If that's the case, then why would he send out Hawke to kill Grace, a blood mage working with Templars to weaken Meredith's strangehold on the city? That doesn't make any sense. If he was out for number 1 as opposed to mage freedom he would have done things a lot differently. Like not drawing attention to himself by trying to incite Kirkwall citizens to overthrow Meredith.

[Obadiah]

Its a big stretch from communicating with a psycho blood mage (knowingly?) to saying Orssino was in fact psychotic. He seemed reasonable enough. I thought the turn his did at the end was ridiculous. In fact, for such a good story, I find much of the ending of DA2 ridiculous, The devs really short changed this one.

Modifié par Obadiah, 03 avril 2011 - 02:24 .

[Vormaerin]

Anarya wrote...

No, but immediately after transforming he becomes a mindless wrecking ball. It's like letting a rampaging elephant go in your own camp and then hoping it eventually maybe takes out some of the bad guys too.

You assume that he planned on becoming a mindless wrecking ball.  Perhaps he thought he would become an "Orsino controlled Harvester" instead of a "Harvester controlled ex-Orsino"

[The Angry One]

Vormaerin wrote...

Anarya wrote...

No, but immediately after transforming he becomes a mindless wrecking ball. It's like letting a rampaging elephant go in your own camp and then hoping it eventually maybe takes out some of the bad guys too.

You assume that he planned on becoming a mindless wrecking ball.  Perhaps he thought he would become an "Orsino controlled Harvester" instead of a "Harvester controlled ex-Orsino"

That'd be even worse. Assume he survives and beats Meredith's forces, he's now the living embodiment of why mages should be locked up in a tower forever.

[sphinxess]

griffondor wrote...

Those with "Orsino love" need perhaps to play a few more times... then you'll see the red flags.  Orsino doesn't suddenly go crazy at the end.  He's not the berated victim he claims to be, he's much more conniving. 

For example, just before the end of Act 2, before Hawk fights the Arishok, Hawk and company find Orsino on the ground, surrounded by dead mages.  If Bethany is in the Circle, he will feign concern and revive her.  All the other mages remain dead.  At this point, Hawk can say (paraphrase) "Wow, you sure are lucky.  You made out a lot better than the others."  This is obviously a leading statement... and gives the suggestion that Orsino is, not only no hero for the mages, in that he doesn't have their back, but possibly,  he is perfectly willing to use them as shields.  

Then, in Act 3 he gives you the quest to find out what some mages are doing sneaking out into the night.  He says Meredith has locked him in and he wants to find out what they are up to.  So you do, and you discover that a group of mages and templars, led by Thrask, are conspiring to remove Meredith, not to overthrow the circle (according to Keran), but to create a circle where the templars are protecting the mages, not abusing them.  That's the spiel.  But what happens?  Grace goes bloodrage on Hawk, kills Thrask and all the duped mages and templars who were cluelessly following become imprisoned/killed.  When Thrask asks what the champion is doing there, and is surprised you would be on the side of Meredith, you have to remember (because the game doesn't give you the option to tell him) that it is Orsino--not Meredith--who sent you.  

Orsino was bad to the bone.  Freedom and protection for mages?  He could care less.  IMO, he was about blood magic all along, and revealing the connection with the serial killer at the end is the final proof.

Pretty good argument but why did he stand and defend the circle then? - surely a archmage could escape Kirkwall.

[Vormaerin]

The core problem is that there is a lot of evidence related to Orsino and the Kirkwall problem that is left in the background. The "Enigma of Kirkwall" material, Orsino's connection to the Lily Killer, just how aware he was of all the other corruption in his Circle, whether he sent us after Grace because of the reasons he stated or because she was a rival, etc. Some or all of that material deserved more "up front" time in fleshing out the issue of the mages.

Heck, the guy has a weapon called "The Staff of Violation" that is effectively unusable because of the random friendly fire damage it inflicts. No wonder all his allies are dead after the Qunari fight...

[griffondor]

Vormaerin wrote...

Heck, the guy has a weapon called "The Staff of Violation" that is effectively unusable because of the random friendly fire damage it inflicts. No wonder all his allies are dead after the Qunari fight...

I agree, we need more background, but still tink that when he sends you after Grace he knows what you will find, and perhaps hopes the Templar involvement will be incriminating against Meredith.  But even so, he doesn't seem to care much for the mages themselves.  But then blood mages never do seem concerned about anyone else in this game.

Btw, you played on NIghtmare?  That's the only way I know to get friendly fire.  I can't even imagine.

[Huntress]

Bann Duncan wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

Pileyourbodies wrote...

He basically says that he helped the lily killer do his research. Orsino was insane since act one.

How far he was involved is uncertain - either way, I'd have appreciated being given some kind of choice, and having him go harvest some templars, rather then just friendly firing. Who might or might not have murdered someones mother is a concern that can wait when there's a few regiments of kill-crazy zealots at our doorstep, trying to annul us.

I disagree. Mage Hawke and/or the mage companions more than make up for the lack of Orsino. Orsino deserved to die  - can you really excuse someone who funded your mother being cut up and made into a human doll?

Really? what about the captain guard? her job is to protect the people, what about meredith? her job is to protect the people, you only meet Orsino at the end, you know about the killer/Orsino at the end, and yet you have the captain guard with you since act 1? really the only one that should have done her job in stoping a serial killer was Aveline and she fail at it. The 3 of them should have died by my crushing prision if you ask me.<_<

Aveline take full control of the guards in act 1, she knows there is a serial killer lose in the city.

Templar with the investigation is turned down by Aveline and Meredith.

Orsino kept quite about a crazy mage been lose in the city. BUT, you only knows that at the very end.. please just stop and think for 1 minute.

[Funny_chan]

I actually think Meredith isn't to blame as much as Orsino, because she was being controled by that artifact, while Orsino deliberately chose to be a "bad guy".

[fusilero1]

I wish he was pushed more into a corner before turning rather than us beating off a wave and suddenly "WE WON? ARGH! *Harvesterises*"

[Huntress]

Funny_chan wrote...

I actually think Meredith isn't to blame as much as Orsino, because she was being controled by that artifact, while Orsino deliberately chose to be a "bad guy".

Yes let ignore that you know about Orsino part on it at the end, after mother have been dead for months/ or years give it or take, while Aveline knew for 3-4 years that a serial killer was in the city, Meredith stoped an investigation of 3-4 years and Aveline did that aswell.
All am saying is I made Eveline  a cpatain guard that fail to protect the people, pointing fingers is fun, but reallity is Aveline should have kept looking into it and not thinking of how to bed a soldier.

2 strong parties made with the purpuse of protecting  civilians/kirkwall fail.

[LobselVith8]

Funny_chan wrote...

I actually think Meredith isn't to blame as much as Orsino, because she was being controled by that artifact, while Orsino deliberately chose to be a "bad guy".

Meredith's actions can't all be blamed on the Idol. Nobody forced Meredith to install a dictatorship and act as the de facto Viscount of Kirkwall, nobody forced her to have a brutal oppressive system that resulted in mages getting raped and tortured with Harrowed mages being made tranquil despite it being illegal, nobody had Meredith trying to enact the Rite of Annulment before Anders ever attacked the Chantry of Kirkwall. The Knight-Commander used the death of Grand Cleric Elthina to order the Rite of Annulment, ordering the murder of every man, woman, and child in the Kirkwall Circle, and she proceeded to ignore the ex-Grey Warden who was actually responsible for the deed. How is Orsino more of an antagonist than the woman who wants to commit the genocide of all mages in the city-state?

[The Angry One]

Filament wrote...

fusilero1 wrote...

I wish he was pushed more into a corner before turning rather than us beating off a wave and suddenly "WE WON? ARGH! *Harvesterises*"

Well the templars did cut through all of the defending mages in the Gallows courtyard to reach that inner "sanctum" where you fight the Harvester.

By the way, that was a great defense on the mage's part wasn't it?
I especially liked how the mages threw away their only advantage - range, by standing at the doors and in the passage instead of at the top of the stairs and the railings to rain destruction on the bottleneck the Templars had to run through below.

[Huntress]

griffondor wrote...

Those with "Orsino love" need perhaps to play a few more times... then you'll see the red flags.  Orsino doesn't suddenly go crazy at the end.  He's not the berated victim he claims to be, he's much more conniving. 

For example, just before the end of Act 2, before Hawk fights the Arishok, Hawk and company find Orsino on the ground, surrounded by dead mages.  If Bethany is in the Circle, he will feign concern and revive her.  All the other mages remain dead.  At this point, Hawk can say (paraphrase) "Wow, you sure are lucky.  You made out a lot better than the others."  This is obviously a leading statement... and gives the suggestion that Orsino is, not only no hero for the mages, in that he doesn't have their back, but possibly,  he is perfectly willing to use them as shields.  

Then, in Act 3 he gives you the quest to find out what some mages are doing sneaking out into the night.  He says Meredith has locked him in and he wants to find out what they are up to.  So you do, and you discover that a group of mages and templars, led by Thrask, are conspiring to remove Meredith, not to overthrow the circle (according to Keran), but to create a circle where the templars are protecting the mages, not abusing them.  That's the spiel.  But what happens?  Grace goes bloodrage on Hawk, kills Thrask and all the duped mages and templars who were cluelessly following become imprisoned/killed.  When Thrask asks what the champion is doing there, and is surprised you would be on the side of Meredith, you have to remember (because the game doesn't give you the option to tell him) that it is Orsino--not Meredith--who sent you.  

Orsino was bad to the bone.  Freedom and protection for mages?  He could care less.  IMO, he was about blood magic all along, and revealing the connection with the serial killer at the end is the final proof.

I do not think for a minute Orsino is a good guy, just pointing out that if you want to see a failure to representing the people of kirkwall you'll find it as a guard captain and Meredith, both claim to protect is blah blah blah and yet, fail to protect a memeber of a Family hawk, a name that have been part of kirkwall history since ever.

Like I said before, I should have been able to kill Aveline for been so incompetent and Meretdith for been a crazy B!tch, and at the end Orsino for allowing a monster take what my hawk saw as the most precious thing, her Mother.

[lazuli]

The Angry One wrote...

By the way, that was a great defense on the mage's part wasn't it?
I especially liked how the mages threw away their only advantage - range, by standing at the doors and in the passage instead of at the top of the stairs and the railings to rain destruction on the bottleneck the Templars had to run through below.

There's a reason that the "Magic" attribute isn't called "Intelligence" in this game.

[Xewaka]

lazuli wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
By the way, that was a great defense on the mage's part wasn't it?
I especially liked how the mages threw away their only advantage - range, by standing at the doors and in the passage instead of at the top of the stairs and the railings to rain destruction on the bottleneck the Templars had to run through below.

There's a reason that the "Magic" attribute isn't called "Intelligence" in this game.

It's called cunning, and it's a rogue attribute.
Hells yeah.

[Lurid Jester]

unspoken_demise wrote...

I didn't feel so bad about taking him down once he referenced the killer. And by "didn't feel so bad," I mean, "I should have ended you earlier, you pr*ck!"

Seems more likely that when Bioware decided that Orsino would go all flesh-golem someone might have said "hey, that's kind of out of character for the one level headed rational NPC in the game."  So to account for the uncharacteristic 180 degree turn, they added a single line of dialogue an some obscure 'notes' to a secondary quest that, aside from showing up in your codex, are never even referenced in the game.

I mean, what rational reason would anyone want to track down the individual corresponding and teaching the person who chopped up your mother?  

The way they handled Orsino was 100% lazy writing.  

[genocidal villain]

Anarya wrote...

Title kinda says it all, but I was mostly happy with how the game ended except for Orsino and the penultimate battle. Seriously it makes no sense at all. AT ALL. I liked Orsino, and he was reasonable all throughout Act 3 until he goes all crazy flesh golem on you. So what's the justification for that? Just a way to put another boss battle in and give you a way to get his awesome staff? From a story point of view it's nonsensical. If he had done this as an act of desperation against Meredith and/or the Templars it might have been kind of logical, but he does it surrounded by allies. It's about as useful to his cause as if he kamikaze'd into his own side's forces, which I guess is sort of what happens. 

Is there a way to see this that I'm missing, other than "guy losing his mind out of nowhere"?

That's not even the worst part. He was aware of that damn mage that killed your mother, and did nothing to stop him except help him with his experiments. He also called that mother****** a friend.

[Andronic0s]

All we know is that Orsino was aware of the research and it lent Quentin some books, nothing more, he could have found out about the details after Hawke solved the murders 3 years before presumably it's common knowledge by now.

But this entire fight is a joke, not only does Orsino freaks out out of the blue (I had kept all the mages NPCs alive and well and the templars where dying by the dozens), but he doesnt even bothers to charge and drives all of the mages outside the room straight into templar hands, not to mention he goes nuts on my team, which just a few minutes before he had called "our best hope".

And then there is the fight itself playing on hard at not point did this boss dropped me or any of my allies below 75% health it was a 30 minutes break from the game really.

Modifié par Andronic0s, 04 avril 2011 - 12:46 .

[Danjaru]

*Templars flow in*

Hawke: CHAARGEE! *Proceeds to kill all the Templars*

Orsino: AAAAHHH!!! Time to be counter productive! *turns into harvester*


Logic.. This scene lacks it.

[Foryou]

He had no where else to turn. The templers were corning him and he was tired of running and wanted to stand up.