260 réponses à ce sujet

[jds1bio]

And I'm not talking about the M rating or the behavior of some forum users.  I'm talking about the game's subject matter and its gameplay. 

In some respects it is much easier to see ourselves in a purely good vs.evil. scenario (like in Origins), where no matter our deepest flaws, we are clearly the good guy. We may also enjoy dressing up our characters in different armors like they are dolls, and when we lose such an ability in DA2, we are really losing the ability to control.  Perhaps some gamers are being confronted with these situations for the very first time in their lives, and don't quite have a handle on them yet.  But analyzing these situations help us understand ourselves, and perhaps that is what scares people the most about this game.

Anyone who has ever been screwed over by a family member, suffered a family loss, or had to make a decision regarding another family member's health will recognize that the writing and the treatment the characters are given in DA2 is completely plausible, and just may hit home for some of you like it did for me.   For my first playthrough, with a party made up of mostly women who have lost greatly, but still find something to live for, the experience has been like no other in gaming so far. 

As for the gameplay, there have been lots of complaints over the oft-used settings where the combat takes place.  Well, consider a different game for a moment, like chess.  Do chess players complain about chess because it's the same board over and over?  Or that the opening moves are always the same ones?  Or that the chess pieces are always coming from the same place?  Or that the game doesn't allow them to plan ahead as easily as they did with the last game (checkers)?  No.  Chess players allow their maturity to guide them to discover the grand depth of the game locked inside an an 8x8 square.

So what do you think?  Are gamers mature enough for DA2?

Modifié par jds1bio, 17 mars 2011 - 05:17 .

[AkiKishi]

A chess board is not trying to pass itself off as a "world".

[Aesieru]

Gamer's still aren't mature enough to realize that M-for Mature really means "Immature", as maturity is mindset and idea, not age... and not violence, and not sex.

[Jim_uk]

I'd turn that around and ask is Dragon Age mature enough for gamers, those who are old enough to buy the game themselves. Huge jugs, exploding enemies and over simplification suggests not.

[Sidac]

Aesieru wrote...

Gamer's still aren't mature enough to realize that M-for Mature really means "Immature", as maturity is mindset and idea, not age... and not violence, and not sex.

Couldnt have said it better myself.

[Aesieru]

Jim_uk wrote...

I'd turn that around and ask is Dragon Age mature enough for gamers, those who are old enough to buy the game themselves. Huge jugs, exploding enemies and over simplification suggests not.

This is an example of immaturity, not to say immaturity is bad (it can be fun) but it's not an example in any feasible spectrum of what is "too mature" or "too for older people".

Essentially, maturity is subjective in today's society, but its definition maintains itself whether people like it or not.

In any case, the sex, and drugs, and over-violence, and over-blood and explosions are gameplay traits meant to make it more enjoyable or just more impacting, because of our current generation's interests and "SHOOT SHOOT BOOM" mentality, but that doesn't make the game mature, so much as younger people aren't really prepared for it, which is a mentality, but doesn't mean it's a "mature thing" (or better, more advanced, stronger, more capable, etc...) to have in a game.

[Korusus]

Why not defend the game on its own merits and refrain from being patronizing?  The combat in DA2 does not approach the level of chess.  That's the most ridiculous defense of lazy rush-job recycling of assets I've ever seen.  BioWare has a talented team of artists and designers...use them.  Even if that means delaying the game and hurting EA's bottom line.

[mesmerizedish]

Jim_uk wrote...

I'd turn that around and ask is Dragon Age mature enough for gamers, those who are old enough to buy the game themselves. Huge jugs, exploding enemies and over simplification suggests not.

I'm not sure you read the OP.

As a group? Probably not, as evidenced by the above post. Individuals rarely exhibit the same qualities as the collective they belong to, however. DAII is the darkest story BioWare's ever done, but KotOR2 was darker still, if for different reasons. You know. Whatevs.

[Il Divo]

An interesting question. I wouldn't necessarily call it a simple issue of maturity. I think one issue is that we are too used to Bioware giving us a BBEG to deal with that its sudden absence is very noticeable, hence why the storyline feels weaker to some. I did however think that the overall plot-line embraced deeper questions than Origins was able to with how the Mage-Templar conflicts were handled. Origins, great a game was it was, had a fairly simple plot-line with respect to the Archdemon/darkspawn. The conflict with Loghain also felt very empty in comparison to DA2, at no point did I feel morally divided  in what the right course of action was.  

[Cloaking_Thane]

Jim_uk wrote...

I'd turn that around and ask is Dragon Age mature enough for gamers, those who are old enough to buy the game themselves. Huge jugs, exploding enemies and over simplification suggests not.

Isnt M 17+?

Further I think the target audience is still the (15) 17-24 Male age group, and men are decidely more visual than women.
....

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

Actually I would find it utterly hilarious if there was a rating of "Immature" for games. There would be an entire section of games devoted purely to rediculous violence and sex. Perhaps all the bad writing would migrate there. It could save the industry!

[jds1bio]

BobSmith101 wrote...

A chess board is not trying to pass itself off as a "world".

Interesting point.  But the chess pieces are labeled as people of varying degress of importance (king, queen, knight, rook, pawn, etc.).  Why would the creators of chess do this if they saw the board merely as a board, and not a metaphor for something else? 

I'll never get lost in a chess board as if it's a world, but all the same, I could get lost in the gameplay of chess if I was interested enough.

[Aesieru]

Ryllen Laerth Kriel wrote...

Actually I would find it utterly hilarious if there was a rating of "Immature" for games. There would be an entire section of games devoted purely to rediculous violence and sex. Perhaps all the bad writing would migrate there. It could save the industry!

Technically every "M" game would just be rated Immature.

The actually mature games would probably be complex-story games.

[Pedrak]

Well, consider a different game for a moment, like chess.  Do chess players complain about chess because it's the same board over and over?  Or that the opening moves are always the same ones?  Or that the chess pieces are always coming from the same place?  Or that the game doesn't allow them to plan ahead as easily as they did with the last game (checkers)?  No.  Chess players allow their maturity to guide them to discover the grand depth of the game locked inside an an 8x8 square.

Except that the pleasure of chess comes from its tactical core, which allows for both creativity and rigorous logic to be used - and any chess player who sees his adversary's pawns pop up in waves from nowhere on the board is going to be rather annoyed.

Modifié par Pedrak, 17 mars 2011 - 05:32 .

[Il Divo]

Aesieru wrote...

Ryllen Laerth Kriel wrote...

Actually I would find it utterly hilarious if there was a rating of "Immature" for games. There would be an entire section of games devoted purely to rediculous violence and sex. Perhaps all the bad writing would migrate there. It could save the industry!

Technically every "M" game would just be rated Immature.

The actually mature games would probably be complex-story games.

Planescape Torment comes to mind as possibly the deepest story I've experienced in a video game.

[jds1bio]

Pedrak wrote...

"Well, consider a different game for a moment, like chess.  Do chess players complain about chess because it's the same board over and over?  Or that the opening moves are always the same ones?  Or that the chess pieces are always coming from the same place?  Or that the game doesn't allow them to plan ahead as easily as they did with the last game (checkers)?  No.  Chess players allow their maturity to guide them to discover the grand depth of the game locked inside an an 8x8 square."

Except that the pleasure of chess comes from its tactical core, which allows for both creativity and rigorous logic to be used - and any chess player who sees his adversary's pawns pop up of nowhere on the board is going to be rather annoyed.

I'm no chess grandmaster, and I've won a game or two of chess in my time, but I've also seen chess pieces come out of nowhere and check or checkmate me.  And I was annoyed, especially because they were right in front of me the entire time.

[Aesieru]

Il Divo wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

Ryllen Laerth Kriel wrote...

Actually I would find it utterly hilarious if there was a rating of "Immature" for games. There would be an entire section of games devoted purely to rediculous violence and sex. Perhaps all the bad writing would migrate there. It could save the industry!

Technically every "M" game would just be rated Immature.

The actually mature games would probably be complex-story games.

Planescape Torment comes to mind as possibly the deepest story I've experienced in a video game.

I'd say something like "Lost Odyssey' was technically a really mature game because it had a lot of plot, A LOT of writing, even well down script writing (majestic writing similar to poetry), and some darker points...

It required a lot of attention to get through the first parts of that game, but it did well.

[Medhia Nox]

I can't place spoilers - but some scenarios felt really powerful when I was under the illusion that my choices had caused them. Then I found out that these events occur no matter what you do.

As for the impact of the subject matter? Yes - I applaud Bioware for trying, but again, they (the plotlines) lost all impact when I found out Bioware was once again trying to tell me a story instead of actual roleplaying. If you think roleplaying is being told a story then come join me at my gaming table.

The issues however aren't any more mature than saving the world.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 17 mars 2011 - 05:35 .

[Aesieru]

Ashr4m wrote...

Interresting thread, so having high demands and criticizing games makes people immature?

And nice example since chess is all about the board ...

Actually it's that narrow-view point which is the definition of "naive", but in some form also, "immature".

Not to be offensive, as I use terms as classifactions not insults.

In any case, that's not an immature thing, the immature thing is the content of the game that people want, but the topic creator has a point that is incorrect in his term usage (some different terms need to be used as opposed to mature) but the point is worth it.

The chess-board idea has a lot of depth in its context if you look into it, but the typical "shoot shoot boom" gamer or even mentality, will not look into it or it see for the complexity and relation it has.

A game is a chessboard, let none tell you otherwise, designers know that.

Oh, and I don't think a "mature gamer" actually exists, honestly.

Truly mature games might, but a gamer... not so much.

[jds1bio]

Korusus wrote...

Why not defend the game on its own merits and refrain from being patronizing?  The combat in DA2 does not approach the level of chess.  That's the most ridiculous defense of lazy rush-job recycling of assets I've ever seen.  BioWare has a talented team of artists and designers...use them.  Even if that means delaying the game and hurting EA's bottom line.

But how do you know this? Have you played every single scenario at every difficulty level the game has to offier?

And I'm not defending anything, I'm just asking if gamers are mature enough to approach the game.

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

Chess obviously needs more sex and bloodspray, it should be remade and have a dialogue wheel too.

[Aesieru]

Ashr4m wrote...

Interresting thread, so having high demands and criticizing games makes people immature?

And nice example since chess is all about the board ...
May i help you with another example that you could have posted, lets talk about DAO, people complained about not having voiced charackters, chess-figures wont talk either, ever heard a chess-player complain?

I'd like some Harry Potter Wizard Chess...

[mesmerizedish]

Il Divo wrote...

Planescape Torment comes to mind as possibly the deepest story I've experienced in a video game.

I don't know how much I'd go throwing around "deep" as a positive. Don't get me wrong, it's not a negative either. It's just hard to quantify and can go both ways, so I try to stick to more cut-and-dry descriptors. Torment had the second-best story in any game I've played. BGII was the best. I know some people have it reversed, but most cRPG fans have both in their top two.